The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Renniks]

You seem to be arguing for autonomous free-will, which postulates that man's freedom is free of any sort of influence. But there are those who recognize that freedom of the will can not be understood in isolation from the man himself. Freewill choices are not arbitrary or capricious choices. A man's free choice reflects his own motives, wishes, desires, dreams, aspirations, and values. My freewill choices are mine, not only because I make them without coercion, but because I own them.

In a novel the characters in the novel are making free-will choices in that sense. Every free choice they make says something about them as an individual, revealing something about their motives etc. And the choices they make are understood within the context of the story. And, this is important also, the choices they make might not reflect the values of the author. Rather, we judge the values of the author based on how the story turns out. Is evil punished; are the good rewarded? What does the story, taken as a whole, reveal about the author?

I maintain that God is revealing himself through the story he is telling

Again you are just embracing contradictions and saying two opposites are true. God is revealing himself through his actions in response to our actions, yes. That's what happens constantly in scripture. Having influences on us doesn't somehow cancel out the freedom to choose between options. You keep using the term "free will choices' when your theology doesn't allow any. And yet you say you make them without coercion and at the same time that God made them happen. Which is it?

 

[Renniks]

It does however grant them a probation period in which to make a free will decision to follow Jesus Christ or follow Him not.

I think you just confirmed that prevenient grace is real. Wasn't that what you were arguing against?

 

[BarneyFife]

I think you just confirmed that prevenient grace is real. Wasn't that what you were arguing against?

No, I was arguing against a biblical "middle ground" between total depravity and regeneration.

A person is either born again or not--has always been my understanding. I know of no Theological fence upon which one may sit. You know, it's everywhere in the Bible: "Why halt ye between two opinions?"; "He that is not with me..."; etc., etc.

:)

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Does not Calvin teaches that Jesus Christ is the Lord and is the Savior? Now when I discuss with you for example, and tell you that my understanding of scriptures is that Jesus Christ is the Lord and is the Savior, am I teaching what Calvin teach or am I teaching what scriptures teach? I am pretty sure you teach that as well. Are you by that teaching the doctrine of Calvin or the scriptures?

Yes, but so does every other Christian sect. The form of predestination you are teaching was not something that was common throughout church history.

What form of predestination are you accusing me of teaching? Besides, I only refer to scriptures as where my view and position is coming from. So why appeal now to what is common in “church” history or in other words perhaps, to tradition?

Tong
R2067

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
For God to do His work of salvation does not depend on conditions, nor is according to the will of man. More so, I have to say that in my view of God, salvation is God’s plan more than it is a choice of God

Scripture says otherwise, as you have been shown numerous times. Does God save those who don't believe in him? Ever?

Not otherwise sir.

On your question, the answer is no. All that God will ever save are them who shall be taught by Him and have them learn from Him, by that draws them and come to Christ, that is, believe in Him, who shall raise them up in the last day.

Tong
R2068

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I agree with you that Christ did not die as a sin offering sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins of all humanity. However you don’t agree that the death of Christ does not only serve as a sin offering but also for other purposes such as it being a sacrifice for atonement for the sins of the whole world.

You might want to study up on the word "atonement." The Cross does nothing to reconcile unrepentant sinners to a Holy God. It does however grant them a probation period in which to make a free will decision to follow Jesus Christ or follow Him not. Even sinners who eventually repent should, by all rights, expire directly upon having their first sinful thought. Mercy is never without cost (Calvary). It is thus that the Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world. :)

Well, I did study the word atonement. Did you? If you did, what have you gathered the word atonement to mean?

<<<The Cross does nothing to reconcile unrepentant sinners to a Holy God.>>>

Romans 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Tong
R2069

 

[Tong2020]

Because that's not omniscience. It's just knowing what he's going to cause to happen. I can do that. Besides which, if God caused men to be so evil he had to wipe them off the earth, he would hardly be saying he grieved about it. That would make God schizophrenic.

Knowing what is yet to happen is part of omniscience. You may think you can do that, but that does not mean you can. You may know what you intend to do tomorrow, but such knowledge does not make what will happen tomorrow a certainty. Only God who is omniscient can do that.

Tong
R2070

 

[BarneyFife]

Well, I did study the word atonement. Did you? If you did, what have you gathered the word atonement to mean?

<<<The Cross does nothing to reconcile unrepentant sinners to a Holy God.>>>

Romans 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Tong
R2069

Perhaps I should have emboldened and underlined UNREPENTANT.

SINNERS WHO NEVER REPENT ARE NOT RECONCILED. YOU SUCCEEDED IN MISSING MY POINT COMPLETELY. IMAGINE THAT.

 

[BarneyFife]

What form of predestination are you accusing me of teaching? Besides, I only refer to scriptures as where my view and position is coming from. So why appeal now to what is common in “church” history or in other words perhaps, to tradition?

Tong
R2067

Do you or do you not believe that God preordains people to be lost antagonists (of converted people), destined for eternal torment?

 

[Renniks]

No, I was arguing against a biblical "middle ground" between total depravity and regeneration.

Which is kinda what prevenient grace is. I agree that the person seeking isn't regenerated. We always just called it conviction in the wesleyan type churches.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Well, I did study the word atonement. Did you? If you did, what have you gathered the word atonement to mean?

<<<The Cross does nothing to reconcile unrepentant sinners to a Holy God.>>>

Romans 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Perhaps I should have emboldened and underlined UNREPENTANT.

SINNERS WHO NEVER REPENT ARE NOT RECONCILED. YOU SUCCEEDED IN MISSING MY POINT COMPLETELY. IMAGINE THAT.

I should have emboldened and underlined when we were enemies in Romans 5:10.

Tong
R2071

 

[Renniks]

What form of predestination are you accusing me of teaching? Besides, I only refer to scriptures as where my view and position is coming from. So why appeal now to what is common in “church” history or in other words perhaps, to tradition?

Tong
R2067

Calvinism. First found somewhat in Augustine's writings. Before that, there's no hint of it. And it wasn't really a common doctrine until Luther and Calvin from what I've read.

 

[BarneyFife]

Which is kinda what prevenient grace is.

I would tend to agree. :)

We always just called it conviction in the wesleyan type churches.

Which is what it is. One can only expect that God preserves a person's life while he is under conviction and until he either chooses to follow Christ or grieves His Spirit away. Which is, no doubt, grace abounding.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What form of predestination are you accusing me of teaching? Besides, I only refer to scriptures as where my view and position is coming from. So why appeal now to what is common in “church” history or in other words perhaps, to tradition?

Do you or do you not believe that God preordains people to be lost antagonists (of converted people), destined for eternal torment?

Regarding predestination, this is what I believe:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Hope you don’t have a problem with that.

Tong
R2072

 

[Renniks]

Knowing what is yet to happen is part of omniscience. You may think you can do that, but that does not mean you can. You may know what you intend to do tomorrow, but such knowledge does not make what will happen tomorrow a certainty. Only God who is omniscient can do that.

Tong
R2070

You miss the point. I have had calvinists tell me God can only know what he decrees. And since they believe he decrees all, that's what they base his omniscience on. I say God just knows due to being himself.

 

[BarneyFife]

I should have emboldened and underlined when we were enemies in Romans 5:10.

Tong
R2071

Oppositional behavior can be treated. I don't deny Scripture--merely your twisting of it.
And I abhor the way you twist other people's words.

You have provided nothing to invalidate the fact that:
<<<The Cross does nothing to reconcile unrepentant sinners to a Holy God.>>>

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What form of predestination are you accusing me of teaching? Besides, I only refer to scriptures as where my view and position is coming from. So why appeal now to what is common in “church” history or in other words perhaps, to tradition?

Calvinism. First found somewhat in Augustine's writings. Before that, there's no hint of it. And it wasn't really a common doctrine until Luther and Calvin from what I've read.

And yet here again is this, bringing calvinism into the conversation when I haven’t, not even once, made any reference to it. Here’s what I will do, I will tell you what I believe regarding predestination:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Is that scriptures or what?

Tong
R2073

 

[BarneyFife]

Regarding predestination, this is what I believe:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Hope you don’t have a problem with that.

Tong
R2072

No problem at all
Thanks, once again for NOT answering my question.

 

[BarneyFife]

@Tong2020

So, do you or do you not believe that God preordains people to be lost antagonists (of converted people), destined for eternal torment?

It's a simple question.

 

[BarneyFife]

And yet here again is this, bringing calvinism into the conversation when I haven’t, not even once, made any reference to it. Here’s what I will do, I will tell you what I believe regarding predestination:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Is that scriptures or what?

Tong
R2073

No, of course, quoting scripture doesn't make anyone a Calvinist, but it is a lousy dodge to avoid identifying as a Calvinist or not. I'm a Seventh-day Adventist. I'm not ashamed nor proud of it.