The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

The ones who enter through him are his sheep. The ones who choose to follow and listen to him are his sheep. His came to his own and his own didn't receive him, but the ones who did became his.

Yes they are his sheep. For it is His sheep that knows and hears His voice. Those who are not His sheep don’t know His voice.

His coming to His own does not refer to His sheep, but to his countrymen, his own race, the Israelites, his brethren in the flesh.

Tong
R1986

 

[Tong2020]

So, you're saying that Jesus didn't die for them (the non-elect); and that therefore if they attempt to come to Christ they will utterly fail.

They will come to Jesus but He will in every wise cast them out.

Unbiblical (John 6:37).

Don’t think that they will attempt to come to Christ. If they were not given by the Father to the Son, they aren’t among those who will come to Christ.

Tong
R1987

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And what He was telling them is this:

you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep

John 18:37: “Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
If one is not of the truth, they won’t hear His voice. The unbelieving Jews were not of the truth. This is why the Jews were so angry. They were being told that they were not right with God.

Is not being one of Jesus’ sheep an unchangeable situation?
No, because while Jesus acknowledged that they were not His sheep, He also said: “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” (John 10:37-38) So Calvinists need to explain why, if being one of His sheep is an unchangeable condition, why he told them to believe.

Clearly, we cannot explain away what Jesus said in John 10:26.

<<<Is not being one of Jesus’ sheep an unchangeable situation?>>>

Have you not read what God said concerning the fallen nature of man? Have you not read what becomes of man, left on his own? That is the unchangeable situation of man.

Who then are the sheep spoken of by Jesus in John 10 as His sheep? They are those whom God had chosen from among men, given to the Son to save. With that, we can understand that those chosen were not chosen because of something they have done, but were chosen by God according to the counsel of His will.

Tong
R1988

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No one can really tell about those who presently heard of the gospel, whether they will come to Christ or not until the end of their days.

Tong
R1985

I believe only God knows who will repent. But he wants all. That’s why he sent us. Amen even until the end of there day

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<If this were true, no one could know they are saved. >>>

The saved shall be revealed. Today, those who hear His voice and believe Him are revealed to be His sheep.

<<<If this were true, perhaps we are all being deceived by God and not one of us is saved.>>>

No. God does not deceive.

How do you know that you are chosen? Because you believe? What happens if you fall away? Does that mean you were not chosen even though you believed you were?
Calvin understood the problem. He had to invent something called evanescent grace to solve it.

It was apostle John who told us about Jesus being the Good shepherd and about Jesus’ sheep in John 10. The answers to your question are found in there.

<<<How do you know that you are chosen?>>>

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me

<<<What happens if you fall away?>>>

The Good Shepherd (Jesus) laid down His life for His sheep. If one would look into that, he will realize that the Lord Jesus Christ would not give His life for any one who would fall away. Besides, His sheep were given to Him by the Father. I don’t think the Father would give to the Son any one who will fall away, and have Him give His life for him.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

And no one can snatch any sheep out of both the Son’s and Father’s hand. Realize the Shepherd loves them, keeps them, takes care of them, feeds them, satisfies them, guides them, directs them, and all. Would you think a sheep would fall away? I don’t think so.

Tong
R1989

 

[Renniks]

I don’t expect all would see the difference between atonement and forgiveness of sin.

Tong
R1982

If God atones for a person, obviously forgiveness is available to that person.

 

[Renniks]

And no one can snatch any sheep out of both the Son’s and Father’s hand. Realize the Shepherd loves them, keeps them, takes care of them, feeds them, satisfies them, guides them, directs them, and all. Would you think a sheep would fall away? I don’t think so.

But they do and scripture confirms that they do.

"Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,"

Why are there multiple warnings in scripture about falling away? Paul goes to Great lengths to warn the Galatians about falling into false teaching that will make Christ of no use to them, for example.

 

[Tong2020]

I believe only God knows who will repent. But he wants all. That’s why he sent us. Amen even until the end of there day

Yes God knows who will repent, for He is omniscient. It is God who works all things according to the counsel of His will, concerning them whom He have chosen to save through Jesus Christ, from among all mankind.

Tong
R1990

 

[FHII]

If God just picked certain people to irresistibly impart with faith, why would he have to intercede for them? Can't you see that if God is causing their belief, there's nothing to intercede for?

I am happy to hear that you recognize that God intercedes. He certainly does! He interceded with Joseph, Jonah and Paul to name a few prominate cases. In Paul's case, he said he was called out in due season. In other words, Jesus interceded at the proper time according to HIS purpose.

There is nothing in the Bible that says we are born with some "irresistible faith". In fact, the Bible says faith comes by hearing. The Bible does say some are predestined and foreordained. But that doesn't meaning they are born with faith or the knowledge they are chosen for a specific purpose. Moses and Jeremiah both gave reasons why they shouldn't be picked. Jonah tried to run away. Paul was... Well we all know what he was before the conversion!

So the fact that God DOES intercede strengthens my belief that he has foreordained individuals. He actually takes time out of his busy schedule to make sure certain people get to where they need to be.

And the scripture says most will depart from the faith in the tribulation, whether you believe that the tribulation was for the early church or for us, it means people aren't irresistibly kept by God either

No, not everyone is, nor does the Bible claim such. John explains it better than I could:

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Tong2020]

If God atones for a person, obviously forgiveness is available to that person.

If God atones for a person?

Forgiveness is of God and is ever available to man even from the beginning when Adam sinned.

Tong
R1991

 

[Renniks]

Have you not read what God said concerning the fallen nature of man? Have you not read what becomes of man, left on his own? That is the unchangeable situation of man.

Who then are the sheep spoken of by Jesus in John 10 as His sheep? They are those whom God had chosen from among men, given to the Son to save. With that, we can understand that those chosen were not chosen because of something they have done, but were chosen by God according to the counsel of His will.

But it's not unchangeable, because Christ died once for all!

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for all."
Hebrews 10:10, KJV

"For Christ also hath ONCE suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
1 Peter 3:18, KJV

Who are the unjust? Yes, every human ever. Individual election is a lie.
You create a problem for yourself because you refuse to see that Jesus is telling them how to become sheep. He's encouraging them to believe, but you just stick your finger in your ears when you come to those verses, right?

 

[Renniks]

If God atones for a person?

Forgiveness is of God and is ever available to man even from the beginning when Adam sinned.

Tong
R1991

Yes, to every man, unlike your claim that he only died for a few chosen individuals.

 

[Renniks]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Another misunderstood verse.
1 John 2:18-19

Little children, it is the last hour and as you have heard that the Anti-Christ is coming, even now many anti-christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be manifest, that none of them were of us.

John speaks of false teachers (anti-christs) who went out “from us” (the true gospel teachers) and thus proved by their going that they were not “of us.” John is specifically speaking of false teachers leaving the company of the true gospel teachers and proving by their leaving that they are not in harmony with the true gospel. Had they continued in the truth they would have no reason to leave but since they had abandoned the truth they could no longer keep company with the true gospel teachers and went out from them to spread their heresies.
The passage says nothing of the false teachers’ prior spiritual condition. It only tells us that at the time of their going they were not “of” the true gospel teachers. They were committed to false doctrine when they left and left for that reason, but we have no way of knowing whether or not they had at one time genuinely embraced the truth.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And no one can snatch any sheep out of both the Son’s and Father’s hand. Realize the Shepherd loves them, keeps them, takes care of them, feeds them, satisfies them, guides them, directs them, and all. Would you think a sheep would fall away? I don’t think so.

But they do and scripture confirms that they do.

"Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,"

Why are there multiple warnings in scripture about falling away? Paul goes to Great lengths to warn the Galatians about falling into false teaching that will make Christ of no use to them, for example.

Love that grows cold is not the same as falling away.

By the way, I take falling away as bottom line denying Jesus, that He is Christ, the Lord.

Tong
R1992

 

[FHII]

John speaks of false teachers (anti-christs) who went out “from us” (

No it doesn't! While yes, false teacher are included in this group, John doesn't list them specifically. He specifically says that antichrist is anyone who denies Jesus is the Son. Teachers are included, but not directly pointed out.

John was also speaking of those who refused to love the brethren. He spoke of it right before saying this verse in question and continued to dwell on it after. That is more an indicator than "false teachers" which -- unlike Peter-- he never directly addresses.

But you are missing the whole point. Those who leave were not of "us". John states that they didn't continue, which strongly suggests that at one time they seemed to have the faith. They came to Church, they praised God, they did the routine. But like Jesus said, some seed falls in stoney ground and others are choked out by thistles. They DIDN'T continue so they were manifested that they were not really of us.

 

[Renniks]

But you are missing the whole point. Those who leave were not of "us". John states that they didn't continue, which strongly suggests that at one time they seemed to have the faith. They came to Church, they praised God, they did the routine. But like Jesus said, some seed falls in stoney ground and others are choked out by thistles. They DIDN'T continue so they were manifested that they were not really of us.

Not being of us at the time they left doesn't equal never having real faith. Otherwise, why are we warned about false teaching? Because it can lead us to become them. Lots of genuine Christians fall into sin and false teaching and some even deny Christ.

 

[FHII]

Not being of us at the time they left doesn't equal never having real faith.

Well even if that were true, so what? They didn't stay in stay so no... These verses say they were never of us.

 

[Renniks]

Well even if that were true, so what? They didn't stay in stay so no... These verses say they were never of us.

No they don't say " never". See the difference?

 

[justbyfaith]

<<<So, if someone is not of the elect, Jesus didn't die for them, is that what you are saying?>>>

Jesus died for them, for the atonement of their sins, for Christ offered his life as an atoning sacrifice for the whole world. But that is different from the sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.

<<<If that is the case, then if someone is not of the elect, they cannot be saved even if they do what is prescribed scripturally in order to be saved (such as what is written in Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39 or Romans 10:8-13).>>>

If one is not among those given by the Father to the Son, what could we expect? Do you expect him to be saved by Christ?

<<<That would mean that if they come to Him, Jesus will cast them out.>>>

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

It is inferred that not all of mankind is given by the Father to the Son. Those who are given are they who will come to Christ. Those who are not, understandably will not.

Tong
R1984

So, those who come to Christ are of the elect, is what you are saying, and those who do not come to Christ are not of the elect?

How is that any different from the idea of predestination according to foreknowledge?

That the Lord chooses people from eternity on the basis of whether or not they receive Him in time?

For if those who do not receive Him are the non-elect, then they are non-elect because they did not receive Him;

Especially if He will not reject them if they come to Him.

Since the non-elect are the non-elect if they do not receive Him; it follows that God did not choose them because He looked down the annals of time and saw that they would not receive Him.

Otherwise God arbitrarily chose them to be the non-elect and is wholly responsible for their choice to walk according to the sin nature and to never receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

And if God is wholly responsible for that, they are not at all responsible for that decision.

Therefore when they are sent to hell, they can even comfort themselves by saying that God was an unjust monster in that He chose them out for hell and gave them no opportunity to make any decision that would change their fate. Because God was wholly responsible for their decision to reject Christ. So it isn't their fault that they are in hell; and God has actually been unjust in placing them there.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't see God as the Author of everything. Sorry, that's not what my Bible tells me.

Consider the following passage.

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Isn't this saying that God is the author of everything? I think so. If I bring my own free-will choices into existence myself, then something came into being apart from God.

He blames that on them.

Of course. It makes narrative sense.

Then, he gave them free rein within certain limits.

Where do you read that God stopped being the creator?

BTW, that Romans verse isn't about us. It's in response to Paul telling how God used the Jews rebellion to spread the gospel, so it's a hardened Jew claiming, first of all that God made him that way. Which, if God did, it was only after he resisted God initially.

I disagree with your interpretation on the following basis. Paul's analogy with the pot and the potter illustrates the concept of transcendence. The pot will not say to the potter, "why did you make me like this?" will it? The question is predicated on Paul's assertion that God made some pots for honorable use and other pots for dishonorable use. In this course, God will not judge a man based on his behavior good or bad, but based on the purpose God gave the pot. The potter isn't waiting to find out what the pot does, i.e. resist his will first. The potter makes a pot to suit his own needs. Thus the question, "who resists his will?" The obvious answer, no one.