The ones who enter through him are his sheep. The ones who choose to follow and listen to him are his sheep. His came to his own and his own didn't receive him, but the ones who did became his.
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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So, you're saying that Jesus didn't die for them (the non-elect); and that therefore if they attempt to come to Christ they will utterly fail.
They will come to Jesus but He will in every wise cast them out.
Unbiblical (John 6:37).
And what He was telling them is this:
you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep
Tong
R1978
John 18:37: “Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
If one is not of the truth, they won’t hear His voice. The unbelieving Jews were not of the truth. This is why the Jews were so angry. They were being told that they were not right with God.
Is not being one of Jesus’ sheep an unchangeable situation?
No, because while Jesus acknowledged that they were not His sheep, He also said: “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” (John 10:37-38) So Calvinists need to explain why, if being one of His sheep is an unchangeable condition, why he told them to believe.
The reason why they do not believe Jesus is this:
you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep
Tong
R1979
One does not become sheep at will. One becomes a sheep of God according to God’s will.
That they don’t believe is as Jesus said, it’s because they are not His sheep.
Tong
R1980
<<<If this were true, no one could know they are saved. >>>
The saved shall be revealed. Today, those who hear His voice and believe Him are revealed to be His sheep.
<<<If this were true, perhaps we are all being deceived by God and not one of us is saved.>>>
No. God does not deceive.
Tong
R1981
How do you know that you are chosen? Because you believe? What happens if you fall away? Does that mean you were not chosen even though you believed you were?
Calvin understood the problem. He had to invent something called evanescent grace to solve it.
Those Christ died for , though for a time, while in nature they do not realize it, will never be condemned for their sins because Christ died for them 1 Cor 15:3
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Rom 4:25
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
When Christ died for their sins and paid in full the sin curse of all their iniquities.
And when Christ was raised again after having all our guilt laid upon His Shoulders, being raised from the dead, this made known that His death was effective.
He is now seated as their conqueror of death, and forerunner at God's Right Hand, and while He is there, He intercedes for and in behalf of all for whom He died, not for the whole Human race without exception, but for those given to Him by His Father, and His intercession for them with God is on the basis of His Shed Blood Matt 26:28
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The intercession of Christ for all those He died for produces Effective intervention, ensuring that they turn to God !
Rom 8:31-34
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The word for intercession in the greek is in the present tense, meaning that Christ is continually entreating the Father for all whom The Father gave Him to die for.
Its a travesty to even think for one second that the Intercessory of the Glorified Jesus Christ on behalf of all He died and rose again, can not but meet with a positive and successful outcome.
Thats what Isa means here Isa 53:10
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The Prolonging of His Days speaks to His resurrection from the dead and ascending to the right hand of God, and His Making Intercession for those He died, and as a result, the Pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His Hand.
If anyone Christ died for perish in their sins, then The Pleasure of the Lord did not prosper in His Hand, neither was His intercession effective in sending intervention in the Lives for whom He died and God wanted saved. 130
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Rom 4:25
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
When Christ died for their sins and paid in full the sin curse of all their iniquities.
And when Christ was raised again after having all our guilt laid upon His Shoulders, being raised from the dead, this made known that His death was effective.
He is now seated as their conqueror of death, and forerunner at God's Right Hand, and while He is there, He intercedes for and in behalf of all for whom He died, not for the whole Human race without exception, but for those given to Him by His Father, and His intercession for them with God is on the basis of His Shed Blood Matt 26:28
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The intercession of Christ for all those He died for produces Effective intervention, ensuring that they turn to God !
Rom 8:31-34
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The word for intercession in the greek is in the present tense, meaning that Christ is continually entreating the Father for all whom The Father gave Him to die for.
Its a travesty to even think for one second that the Intercessory of the Glorified Jesus Christ on behalf of all He died and rose again, can not but meet with a positive and successful outcome.
Thats what Isa means here Isa 53:10
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The Prolonging of His Days speaks to His resurrection from the dead and ascending to the right hand of God, and His Making Intercession for those He died, and as a result, the Pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His Hand.
If anyone Christ died for perish in their sins, then The Pleasure of the Lord did not prosper in His Hand, neither was His intercession effective in sending intervention in the Lives for whom He died and God wanted saved. 130
If God just picked certain people to irresistibly impart with faith, why would he have to intercede for them? Can't you see that if God is causing their belief, there's nothing to intercede for?
And the scripture says most will depart from the faith in the tribulation, whether you believe that the tribulation was for the early church or for us, it means people aren't irresistibly kept by God either.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
A sure way to understand God's relationship to his creation is to remember that God is the creator. He does not cause anything; he creates everything. God does not cause a free-will choice; he creates a free-will choice. By analogy, Tolkien didn't cause Frodo to climb Mt. Doom. He wrote that Frodo climbed up Mt. Doom. With respect to Frodo, Tolkien is the transcendent creator. Everything that happens in Tolkien's novel, is created by Tolkien, even Frodo's free-will choice to take the ring to Mt. Doom and every free-will choice along the way. Just as Tolkien created a story, including the choices is characters make; God is also creating a story, including the choices we make.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? (Romans 9:19-20)
You and I are "the thing molded"
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
While it is true that Christ died for our sins, it is NOT true that Christ paid for our sins. The "payment" theory of the atonement is unaware of the fact that Jesus' death on the cross was an act of propitiation, appealing to God for reconciliation. While the Payment theory of the atonement understands the cross in terms of justice, in actual fact, the Biblical teaching concerning the cross understands the cross in terms of mercy.
The cross answers to the question, "what action must be taken to appease God so that God will forgive his people?" Since the cross is an act of propitiation, John can write that Christ died for the whole world. The means of reconciliation is made available to the entire world, to anyone who comes to believe that God was pleased to accept Jesus' sacrificial act as conciliation in light of our sins.
Since the cross was not payment for our sins, Calvinists are mistaken to believe that the atonement is limited to the elect.
cady
Then you speak of a christ i have no knowledge of. The Christ that died for my sins, paid in full the sin debt I owed, and not only me, the sin debt of many.
Then you speak of a christ i have no knowledge of. The Christ that died for my sins, paid in full the sin debt I owed, and not only me, the sin debt of many.
I don't see God as the Author of everything. Sorry, that's not what my Bible tells me. I know it's a popular idea. I've read entire books promoting the idea. But the problem is, God in the Bible does not claim to be writing in the dark shadows of sin in people's lives. He blames that on them. And Jesus says Satan is the prince of this world. Now, I'm a fiction author. I've written several books, but have not published any. I often say that my characters do things that surprise me. Of course, in reality, everything they do came from my mind. What surprises me is some of the latent ideas that come out in my writings that I didn't know I was thinking. I'm sure God is quite aware of his every "hidden" thought, though. I'm sure God writes just what he wants to. And yes, he spoke everything and everyone into being. Then, he gave them free rein within certain limits. Kinda a scary thought, I know. Why would he do that, knowing in advance how badly we would screw it all up?
BTW, that Romans verse isn't about us. It's in response to Paul telling how God used the Jews rebellion to spread the gospel, so it's a hardened Jew claiming, first of all that God made him that way. Which, if God did, it was only after he resisted God initially. And the protester is also wrong, as shown when Paul says he's talking back to God. He's wrong about us not resisting his will. He's whining about something that hasn't really happened to him. He's a Calvinist, saying we can't resist Gods will, which is hogwash. People resist God's will all through the Bible. He's telling God that God made him a rebel but God didn't. He did that to himself. So if this is God's story, God isn't manipulating all the events in that story. He's smart enough to allow quite a lot of freedom and still win in the end.
I don’t expect all would see the difference between atonement and forgiveness of sin.
Tong
R1982
<<<So, if someone is not of the elect, Jesus didn't die for them, is that what you are saying?>>>
Jesus died for them, for the atonement of their sins, for Christ offered his life as an atoning sacrifice for the whole world. But that is different from the sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.
<<<If that is the case, then if someone is not of the elect, they cannot be saved even if they do what is prescribed scripturally in order to be saved (such as what is written in Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39 or Romans 10:8-13).>>>
If one is not among those given by the Father to the Son, what could we expect? Do you expect him to be saved by Christ?
<<<That would mean that if they come to Him, Jesus will cast them out.>>>
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
It is inferred that not all of mankind is given by the Father to the Son. Those who are given are they who will come to Christ. Those who are not, understandably will not.
Tong
R1984
No one can really tell about those who presently heard of the gospel, whether they will come to Christ or not until the end of their days.
Tong
R1985
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