The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Kermos]

you ignored all the verses I quoted saying he died for everyone.

There are no verses that say Jesus died for the sins of everyone everywhere without exception.

For example, let's look at tbe results of you trying to apply such a concept with "he died for everyone" in John 12:32 which exposes how your logic implodes, your illegal linguistics, and your thoughts are against Christ:

1. The Apostle John attributed the "if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32) statement of Jesus specifically to "He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die" (John 12:33).
   
2. Jesus attributed NOT the John 12:32 statement to salvation.
   
3. The John 12:32 statement aligns with “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God" (Romans 14:11) because with certainty every believer and unbeliever will bow the knee to Christ one day; therefore, here is the drawing in the John 12:32 statement; moreover, every believer receives eternal life (John 3:16), and every unbeliever disobedient person while living has the wrath of God abiding on such a disobedient one (John 3:36).
   
4. The words "all men" (πάντας pantas, every, conjugate of pas Strong's 3956) in John 12:32 is plural, rather than singular such as the words "every one" (πᾶς pas, every, pas Strong's 3956) in John 3:16 (please see post #2869 for a complete explanation of "every one believing" in John 3:16); therefore, pantas in John 12:32 accurately translates as "every people", "every peoples", and "all men" because pantas is plural. Because of this, Jesus says He will draw persons from every people group, like nation, per John 12:32 (Praise God, @Scott Downey pointed out "all peoples" in post #2882).
   
5. Jesus can say one thing with multiple meanings.
   
6. there is no indication for a supposed ability for man to choose Jesus for salvation respecting the recorded Word in John 12:32.
   
7. Christ draws all to himself by way of the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, the Power of God.
   
8. In effect, you persist in asserting that God's will is soooo weak that God fails to save some people from the wrath of God for whom Jesus died.
   
   Somewhere, there is a lady who rejected Jesus Christ, and she died while she rejected Jesus Christ.
   
   The gospel, the Jesus, that you confess failed to save her even though your Jesus died for her sins. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for her to enter his Joy, so:
   • she who died suffers the wrath of God because your he who died is miserably weak (Galatians 1:6-7).
   • two separate punishments occur for her sin resulting in God being unjust, (1) Jesus' suffering on the cross to take away her sin (John 1:29) is one punishment, and (2) the lady's suffering everlasting punishment is another punishment (Matthew 25:46) (Praise God, @brightfame52 pointed out the Injustice factor in post #2936).
   
   Truly, the gospel of Jesus Christ includes that He succeeds in saving every single one of the people for whom he died from the wrath of God (John 10:28). Jesus Christ is Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), God is just (Deuteronomy 32:4), and there is none like God (Isaiah 46:9).

Boy, Renniks, your humanistic assertion that man can choose Jesus is ungodly, unscriptural and a denial of the Word of God because Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[brightfame52]

What a twisted logic!
The atonement isn't a calculus formula.

Its the Truth, may God be pleased to open up your understanding.

 

[brightfame52]

You have backed yourself in a corner. It's OK to discover that you have been wrong in your theology. We all grow and learn. It's best to examine yourself and pray. Better to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you on this issue rather than planting your feet in the sand. One of the very reasons I'm on here is to learn and check myself.

All I can do is witness the Truth, its up to God to give you understanding.

 

[Kermos]

You have backed yourself in a corner. It's OK to discover that you have been wrong in your theology. We all grow and learn. It's best to examine yourself and pray. Better to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you on this issue rather than planting your feet in the sand. One of the very reasons I'm on here is to learn and check myself.

No, @TEXBOW, @brightfame52 has exposed your and @Renniks deception in post #2936, so brightfame52 is not backed into a corner.

You failed to cite the Word of God in your post, so you failed to provide any scriptural response to that which God had me post to you.

Your post is a whole lot of useless "word of @TEXBOW", which is not life.

In truth, the Word of God is life (John 14:6).

That’s a whole lot of your thoughts without the Word of God!

Your thoughts that the Jesus died for the sins everyone everywhere results from your precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

A word about your thoughts. It is written, “‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,’ declares YHWH. ‘For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written “do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar” (Proverbs 30:6).

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote “nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Revelation 21:27) – notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

 

[Scott Downey]

Sheep is a merely a metaphor for believers.
It doesn't say he only died for them anyway. It says he draws all men.

Jesus specifically tells us He dies for the sheep.
The whole point of Christ dying is so that the sheep will have eternal life, not the world of people God knows will never believe, so even in a broader POV, Christ dies dies for the believers only. Note John 3:16

Now Peter makes mention of sheep who have 'gone astray', otherwise known as wandering sheep. They would be those the Father knows as His own who will believe in the future, even if they do not yet know God, God knows them and loved them first.

1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Peter is writing to the Elect of God, read 1 Peter 1, who were the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And interesting example of that is this here what Jesus says,

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

And who are the house of Israel? they are the children of Abraham, who God promised to Abraham that his descendants would be a large numerous number of people. ONLY Abraham's descendants, who Paul exposes as 'children of promise' are those Christ helps to salvation. And Christ helps only them to salvation. Recall not all Israel is of Israel, Paul teaches that in Romans 9:6-9, salvation is only for the children of promise that God told to Abraham, so shall your descendants be. 'In Isaac your seed shall be called'

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels,
but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

See you might think 'people' here are all gentile and Jewish people, but no that is wrong. These 'the people' are the 'seed of Abraham' and Christ was only sent to them to be their savior and dies for them.

v13 tells us these children have been given to Christ by God.
so these children, the seed of Abraham is what the scripture is telling us are 'the people' for who Christ died, 'made propitiation for'
and he only did so for them.

 

[Scott Downey]

Now if you need further proof that the sheep, believers are the true house of Israel, Abraham's seed and heirs according to God's promise made to Abraham, look at Galatians 3 and Galatians 4
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, (as in the sheep of Christ) then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through (the means of ) faith, and that (faith) not of yourselves; (faith) it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

God's grace-love towards you grants-dealt to you your faith
Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

 

[Renniks]

Jesus specifically tells us He dies for the sheep.
The whole point of Christ dying is so that the sheep will have eternal life, not the world of people God knows will never believe, so even in a broader POV, Christ dies dies for the believers only. Note John 3:16

Now Peter makes mention of sheep who have 'gone astray', otherwise known as wandering sheep. They would be those the Father knows as His own who will believe in the future, even if they do not yet know God, God knows them and loved them first.

1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Peter is writing to the Elect of God, read 1 Peter 1, who were the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And interesting example of that is this here what Jesus says,

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

And who are the house of Israel? they are the children of Abraham, who God promised to Abraham that his descendants would be a large numerous number of people. ONLY Abraham's descendants, who Paul exposes as 'children of promise' are those Christ helps to salvation. And Christ helps only them to salvation. Recall not all Israel is of Israel, Paul teaches that in Romans 9:6-9, salvation is only for the children of promise that God told to Abraham, so shall your descendants be. 'In Isaac your seed shall be called'

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels,
but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

See you might think 'people' here are all gentile and Jewish people, but no that is wrong. These 'the people' are the 'seed of Abraham' and Christ was only sent to them to be their savior and dies for them.

v13 tells us these children have been given to Christ by God.
so these children, the seed of Abraham is what the scripture is telling us are 'the people' for who Christ died, 'made propitiation for'
and he only did so for them.

Christ died for all.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

EveryoneEveryoneEveryone
EveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryone

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ died for all.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

EveryoneEveryoneEveryone
EveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryone

All those verses are a distortion unless in context.
Everyone who believes, everyone in the church, all Christians, the elect of all the nations.
Acts 13:39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

The entire Hebrews chapter 2 you quote from is specifically written to the 'elect everyone' of all nations, not just the Jews, and not unbelievers, this whole chapter it is describing the children God gave to Christ.
If you read it in context you will see that. Everyone of God is who He tastes death for.

Hebrews 2
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Bringing Many Sons to Glory
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

 

[Scott Downey]

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
Speaking of the 'whole world', do you know what propitiation means?
Definition
Propitiation means “averting the wrath of God by the offering of a gift.” It refers to the turning away of the wrath of God as the just judgment of our sin by God’s own provision of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Now if you say Christ propitiates (atones) the sins of everyone all over the world by His death, who do not believe in Him, then you HAVE TO ADMIT, there is no more wrath of God towards unbelievers by the very meaning of the propitiation. But that is a lie.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I highlighted it for all to see. So then unbelievers Christ has not atoned for or propitiated turned away God's wrath from them has HE.

Propitiation of the whole world simply means the gospel is now gone out to all the nations of the world, meaning they too can be saved by faith in Christ, NOT just the Jewish people. Read it with understanding,
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Christ only forgives the sins and turns away the wrath of God for believers, Christs saves us from the wrath of God to come.

 

[Renniks]

Propitiation of the whole world simply means the gospel is now gone out to all the nations of the world, meaning they too can be saved by faith in Christ, NOT just the Jewish people.

Correct, every person now has that option.

 

[Kermos]

Christ died for all.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

EveryoneEveryoneEveryone
EveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryone

@Renniks, you claim to be a part of "the whole world" in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) thus the evil one encompasses you touching you, yet the evil one touches not Christians (1 John 5:18); therefore, your foundation is deception (Matthew 7:26-27) which opposes the Truth (John 14:6, Galatians 5:17)

And

@Renniks, you have been shown that the drawing mentioned by Jesus in John 12:32 is not unto salvation for every person everywhere, yet you persist in maligning the Word of God by asserting that God's will is soooo weak that God fails to save some people from the wrath of God for whom Jesus died and you "EveryoneEveryoneEveryone
EveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryoneEveryone"

 

[Kermos]

Correct, every person now has that option.

Your first word is right, but the balance of your post is precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9) because the Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Kermos]

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
Speaking of the 'whole world', do you know what propitiation means?
Definition
Propitiation means “averting the wrath of God by the offering of a gift.” It refers to the turning away of the wrath of God as the just judgment of our sin by God’s own provision of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Now if you say Christ propitiates (atones) the sins of everyone all over the world by His death, who do not believe in Him, then you HAVE TO ADMIT, there is no more wrath of God towards unbelievers by the very meaning of the propitiation. But that is a lie.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I highlighted it for all to see. So then unbelievers Christ has not atoned for or propitiated turned away God's wrath from them has HE.

Propitiation of the whole world simply means the gospel is now gone out to all the nations of the world, meaning they too can be saved by faith in Christ, NOT just the Jewish people. Read it with understanding,
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Christ only forgives the sins and turns away the wrath of God for believers, Christs saves us from the wrath of God to come.

God has blessed me by your being here!

Your writing has accurate linguistics, proper logic, and spiritual truth! I enjoyed reading this post.

This Truth is immutable, as you know, Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Scott Downey]

God has blessed me by your being here!

Your writing has accurate linguistics, proper logic, and spiritual truth! I enjoyed reading this post.

This Truth is immutable, as you know, Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

I am still a work in progress, and one thing I have learned is how nicely the scriptures all make sense once you actually believe what they are saying, versus the doctrines of a man and the various inaccurate teachings many have perpetuated in churches, which do not agree with scripture.
I really do enjoy thinking about these things.
To know the truth of how and why things are as they are, you must take into account the whole counsel of God in scripture, and not force the scripture out of context to a private view.
Paul did a very good job of presenting to the churches the whole counsel of God.

Acts 20:26-28
New King James Version
26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

The other thing is God is saving His people, but we dont all yet have the same measure of faith, the same amount of understanding, some things God knows we can not yet bear. Maybe some opponents, God will grant repentance to know the truth of scripture, and no longer be in opposition.

such as.
John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now,

2 Timothy 2:24-26
New King James Version
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us

1 John 5:19-21
New King James Version
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[brightfame52]

Lets observe some inconsistency in light of the fact if as alleged Christ died for all without exception. Since its stated He died for our sins, the following would be true:

We would end up with the awful deceitful teaching of universalism, which teaches everyone without exception shall be saved. This cannot be accurate however because scripture teaches us that some shall be lost and damned. Lets ponder Matt 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matt 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The greek word for destruction apōleia means:

1. destroying, utter destruction
   1. of vessels
2. a perishing, ruin, destruction
   1. of money
   2. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

Lets look at Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:



Jesus states to some that they shall die in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So we know this inconsistency is not true according to the scripture.

 

[Renniks]

Your first word is right, but the balance of your post is precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9) because the Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Jesus disagrees with kermos.

"And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

 

[Kermos]

Jesus disagrees with kermos.

"And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

King Jesus defines faith with His saying of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), but you Renniks are against Christ because you claim that faith is a work of man.

I wholeheartedly am in accord with Jesus because every time the English versions of the Bible say "your faith" in the New Testament, the phrase has a definite article in it according to the Greek, so it should be rendered "the faith of you", and this is like the phrase "the God of you"; in other words, faith and God are controlling the person, not the person controlling God nor faith, but truly a person being controlled by God by faith!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

King Jesus defines faith with His saying of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), but you Renniks are against Christ because you claim that faith is a work of man.

I wholeheartedly am in accord with Jesus because every time the English versions of the Bible say "your faith" in the New Testament, the phrase has a definite article in it according to the Greek, so it should be rendered "the faith of you", and this is like the phrase "the God of you"; in other words, faith and God are controlling the person, not the person controlling God nor faith, but truly a person being controlled by God by faith!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

God does not force a person to have faith.

God gives us the ability to have faith. Through the word. Through his creation (romans1) and through other people.

But he does not force people to have faith. Nor does he refuse the ability of other people to even be able to have faith.

 

[Scott Downey]

God does not force a person to have faith.

God gives us the ability to have faith. Through the word. Through his creation (romans1) and through other people.

But he does not force people to have faith. Nor does he refuse the ability of other people to even be able to have faith.

If faith is a gift, then it is not forced against the natural man. Faith is gifted to the spiritual man, not the old man of the flesh. God does not twist the arm of just anyone, but God uses GOADS. Christ did tell Paul this, which implies Paul had been resisting the truth and hurting himself, that God was goading Paul. A GOAD implies being compelled or forced into a certain direction.

Acts 9:5
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
Acts 26:14
And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

Define 'goad' as a noun
a stick with a pointed or electrically charged end, for driving cattle, oxen, etc.; prod.
anything that pricks or wounds like such a stick.
something that encourages, urges, or drives; a stimulus.

Then we have the word DRAW, as in here
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word 'draw' means in the Greek, to 'DRAG' or 'DRAW OFF'
G1670 - helkō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Lexicon :: Strong's G1670 - helkō

ἕλκω

So then like this
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me drags him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Which means a lot more than pleading with, it implies force, and "a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off),"
STRONGS G1670:
ἕλκω (and in later writings ἑλκύω also [Veitch, under the word; Winer's Grammar, 86 (82)]); imperfect εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω [ἑλκ. Rec.elz John 12:32]; 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ([infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κύσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger § 40, under the word; [Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word]); from Homer down; Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
1. properly: τὸ δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4) cum trinis catenis vinctus traheretur, Livy 2, 27 cum a lictoribus jam traheretur).
2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας... ἑλκουσης ἐπὶ ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (4 Macc 15:11). trahit sua quemque voluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; [Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.]

And the same root Greek word draw is used in John 12

Jhn 12:32

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw G1670 all men unto me.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will drag all men unto me.

Christ is saying He will be the one dragging people to himself forcibly, saving them. No baby has chosen of itself to be born, and neither does any man make that choice, God does it for them as one of His works.

John 6:28
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

You can take that very literally, that the reason you believe in Christ is the work of God, not of yourself it is God's gift.
Without that work, on their behalf, no person ever does believe in Christ.

John 3:27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

Think about the above verse, and your own faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If faith is a gift, then it is not forced against the natural man. Faith is gifted to the spiritual man, not the old man of the flesh. God does not twist the arm of just anyone, but God uses GOADS. Christ did tell Paul this, which implies Paul had been resisting the truth and hurting himself, that God was goading Paul. A GOAD implies being compelled or forced into a certain direction.

Acts 9:5
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
Acts 26:14
And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

Define 'goad' as a noun
a stick with a pointed or electrically charged end, for driving cattle, oxen, etc.; prod.
anything that pricks or wounds like such a stick.
something that encourages, urges, or drives; a stimulus.

Then we have the word DRAW, as in here
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word 'draw' means in the Greek, to 'DRAG' or 'DRAW OFF'
G1670 - helkō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Lexicon :: Strong's G1670 - helkō

ἕλκω

So then like this
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me drags him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Which means a lot more than pleading with, it implies force, and "a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off),"
STRONGS G1670:
ἕλκω (and in later writings ἑλκύω also [Veitch, under the word; Winer's Grammar, 86 (82)]); imperfect εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω [ἑλκ. Rec.elz John 12:32]; 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ([infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κύσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger § 40, under the word; [Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word]); from Homer down; Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
1. properly: τὸ δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4) cum trinis catenis vinctus traheretur, Livy 2, 27 cum a lictoribus jam traheretur).
2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας... ἑλκουσης ἐπὶ ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (4 Macc 15:11). trahit sua quemque voluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; [Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.]

And the same root Greek word draw is used in John 12

Jhn 12:32

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw G1670 all men unto me.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will drag all men unto me.

Christ is saying He will be the one dragging people to himself forcibly, saving them. No baby has chosen of itself to be born, and neither does any man make that choice, God does it for them as one of His works.

John 6:28
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

You can take that very literally, that the reason you believe in Christ is the work of God, not of yourself it is God's gift.
Without that work, on their behalf, no person ever does believe in Christ.

John 3:27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

Think about the above verse, and your own faith.

God does not force people to believe

And he is not a respecter of persons. He does not allow some to believe and prevent others.

He draws all men to himself. But not all men will receive, He chose a nation. But they kept defiling themselves. And God kept taking the clay and remolding it, he is still doing that today, and one day that nation will be what God intended.

It is the work of Christ we believe, not because he believed for us, But because he did the work which caused us to come to a point and make a decision. To say Yes God I trust you. or no God I will continue to trust my self.

You claim a child of the flesh can not come. That is not true, if that was true no one could be saved, because we are all in the flesh, in fact Christ died while we were in the flesh.

What we have to do is do as the children of Israel did when moses lifted the serpent. Walk through the snakes on our own trusting ourselves. Or trust God and look up to the serpent which was raised.

Jesus shows this in John 3, as he said as moses lifted the serpent so must he be lifted up that WHOEVER believes will never die but has eternal life.

it is offered to all.