The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Kermos]

While there seems to be a lot of bible passages that make the gospel seem to have been intended for God's elected ones, how would we know we're one of those before we stand before God's judgement?

I'm thinking of all those wacky cult types who made news doing bad in Jesus name. They thought they were saved.

Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) is evidence of being saved from the wrath of God. "Every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit" (Jesus Christ, Matthew 7:17-18).

Do not forget those "wacky cult types" that think they chose Jesus, but that makes them to have chosen another Jesus that isn't Jesus at all because the Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Renniks]

Do not forget those "wacky cult types" that think they chose Jesus, but that makes them to have chosen another Jesus that isn't Jesus at all because the Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you

Rotflol!
So you put down people for doing what God ( according to your theology) caused them to do?

You didn't choose to be saved? You just woke up one day already saved, or were you born that way?

 

[Kermos]

That was said to the twelve, one of whom was ultimately lost.
So you have a big problem if it's about salvation.

Judas had departed BEFORE (John 13:21-30) Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation)!

Matthias and Joseph were present when Jesus says this according to the Apostle Peter (Acts 1:21-23).

Lord and Pastor Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all His own chosen sheep who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Scott Downey]

While there seems to be a lot of bible passages that make the gospel seem to have been intended for God's elected ones, how would we know we're one of those before we stand before God's judgement?

I'm thinking of all those wacky cult types who made news doing bad in Jesus name. They thought they were saved.

Point is if you believe in Christ, and persevere to the end in faith, they you are saved and the reality is you are elect.

Hebrews 3
4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

All the church letters are written to the elect, as it only benefits those who are saved. The unbelieving world will view scripture as foolishness and will not believe most of it or maybe some generic parts.
Only the elect, the body of Christ will experience the grace and peace of God in their hearts which goes beyond the natural understanding
Here some verses with the concept of the election, another good word to look up is chose, chosen, call, called.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.


BibleGateway - Keyword Search: elect

You know that everyone makes their choices from within the experiences of the environment they find themselves within. Those experiences are orchestrated by God, for the benefit of the elect whom HE foreknew as His own, as it says in Romans 8

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Paul is writing to the elect believers, the church, and not to the world. God is for US whom he is saving.

32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us

1 Thessalonians 1:1-5
New King James Version
Greeting
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

 

[Kermos]

Nope I was not minimizing scripture, only your odd interpretation of scripture.

You most certainly were minimizing scripture because you wrote "Sheep is a merely a metaphor for believers. It doesn't say he only died for them anyway. It says he draws all men.", and God had me write to you as follows that illuminate your error.

There is the serious element because your post used loaded words like "merely" and "only" for you to minimize the Word of God in John chapter 10, and I cited John 10:16 because Jesus calls Himself Pastor.

BTW, Pastor Jesus controls His own - HIS OWN - for whom He specifically died to cover His own's sins because He says "he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out" (John 10:3).

And because Pastor Jesus says "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep" (John 10:11).

Lord and Pastor Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all His own sheep who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Kermos]

Rotflol!
So you put down people for doing what God ( according to your theology) caused them to do?

You didn't choose to be saved? You just woke up one day already saved, or were you born that way?

I proclaim Truth (John 14:6), but the world hates Him (John 7:7).

You laugh at the topic of salvation with your "Rotflol".

The Apostle Paul identifies every man starts out as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).

The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own sin against God with "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).

The Apostle Paul includes even the Gentiles in the Law "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves" (Romans 2:14).

The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own crime against God with "we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:19-20).

The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).

THE FIRST STATE OF MAN IS OPPOSITION TO GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY (JOHN 14:6) FOR MAN'S SALVATION IS FOR GOD TO BIRTH MAN ANEW (JOHN 3:3-8), NOT A WORK OF A CHOICE BY MAN, BUT STRICTLY THE WORK OF GOD IN MAN (JOHN 6:29).

 

[Scott Downey]

You most certainly were minimizing scripture because you wrote "Sheep is a merely a metaphor for believers. It doesn't say he only died for them anyway. It says he draws all men.", and God had me write to you as follows that illuminate your error.

There is the serious element because your post used loaded words like "merely" and "only" for you to minimize the Word of God in John chapter 10, and I cited John 10:16 because Jesus calls Himself Pastor.

BTW, Pastor Jesus controls His own - HIS OWN - for whom He specifically died to cover His own's sins because He says "he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out" (John 10:3).

And because Pastor Jesus says "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep" (John 10:11).

Lord and Pastor Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all His own sheep who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

Yes, Jesus spoke of 'other sheep I have', they had not yet heard His voice, but they will be joined together with the other believers as one flock and Him as their only shepherd.
When the sheep hear Him, they follow Christ, and will flee from a stranger's voice.
John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Perfect example of Christ's sheep who dont yet know they are His sheep, but they will listen to Him and join with the flock.
No one is naturally born a follower of Christ, but some are born as His foreknown to Him sheep, their salvation has not yet been completed in their life until they hear the voice of Christ, and then they will follow Him. That ability to hear Him speak means they are of God . At some point in this life, God will touch them and make then born of God and then they will hear.

John 8:29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”
30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[Kermos]

Yes, Jesus spoke of 'other sheep I have', they had not yet heard His voice, but they will be joined together with the other believers as one flock and Him as their only shepherd.
When the sheep hear Him, they follow Christ, and will flee from a stranger's voice.
John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Perfect example of Christ's sheep who dont yet know they are His sheep, but they will listen to Him and join with the flock.
No one is naturally born a follower of Christ, but some are born as His foreknown to Him sheep, their salvation has not yet been completed in their life until they hear the voice of Christ, and then they will follow Him. That ability to hear Him speak means they are of God . At some point in this life, God will touch them and make then born of God and then they will hear.

John 8:29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”
30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

God bless you Scott Downey!

It is such a blessing to be secured in the loving, strong arm of the Lord Jesus! I am weak, but He is strong! Oh, the sweet release of trying to do things in my strength. Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty! Praise Jesus for His deliverance and the joy of God's love!!!

L'Shalom

 

[brightfame52]

Sheep is a merely a metaphor for believers.
It doesn't say he only died for them anyway. It says he draws all men.

Sheep are unbelievers at one time, yet they are still sheep, so you are incorrect.

 

[Renniks]

There is the serious element because your post used loaded words like "merely" and "only" for you to minimize the Word of God in John chapter 10,

Nonsense! Saying something is merely a metaphor doesn't minimize anything. Some things are literal in scripture and some are metaphors. It's important to understand what is what.

 

[Renniks]

Sheep are unbelievers at one time, yet they are still sheep, so you are incorrect.

No, they are not sheep until they follow Jesus. He said that the sheep follow him. Unbelievers don't.

 

[Renniks]

Yes, Jesus spoke of 'other sheep I have', they had not yet heard His voice, but they will be joined together with the other believers as one flock and Him as their only shepherd.

Yes that's the gentiles. They become part of his flock when they believe.

 

[Renniks]

Lord and Pastor Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all His own sheep who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent

you ignored all the verses I quoted saying he died for everyone.

 

[Renniks]

You laugh at the topic of salvation with your "Rotflol".

No I laughed at your absurd statement.

 

[Oceanprayers]

Point is if you believe in Christ, and persevere to the end in faith, they you are saved and the reality is you are elect.

Hebrews 3
4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

I think God's Elect are destined to preservers because they were predestined for that by God.

All the church letters are written to the elect, as it only benefits those who are saved. The unbelieving world will view scripture as foolishness and will not believe most of it or maybe some generic parts.
Only the elect, the body of Christ will experience the grace and peace of God in their hearts which goes beyond the natural understanding
Here some verses with the concept of the election, another good word to look up is chose, chosen, call, called.

1 Peter 1

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.


BibleGateway - Keyword Search: elect

You know that everyone makes their choices from within the experiences of the environment they find themselves within. Those experiences are orchestrated by God, for the benefit of the elect whom HE foreknew as His own, as it says in Romans 8

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Paul is writing to the elect believers, the church, and not to the world. God is for US whom he is saving.

32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us

1 Thessalonians 1:1-5
New King James Version
Greeting
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

Agreed.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you, my friend, believe that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men without exception? Perhaps many who read this will answer, Yes. I then ask you, Why are not all men without exception saved? You will probably respond, because they do not believe in Jesus Christ. I will respond that if Christ died for all their sins, He died for their sin of unbelief, and taketh it away as well Jn 1:29, hence as Saviour from sin, He must save from unbelief Matt 1:21. If Christ died for all ones sins, then they must not die for them, for dying in unbelief is equivalent to dying in all your sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

You see that, if you die in unbelief, you die in your sins, which supposedly Christ has already died for and satisfied Gods Eternal justice for. In this instance one makes God unjust for punishing someone's sins twice, in Christ their Surety and then in themselves, that's unjust to Christ the Saviour, who suffered and died and the sinner He suffered and died for. However we know God is a Just God and Saviour Isa 45:21

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.69

 

[brightfame52]

No, they are not sheep until they follow Jesus. He said that the sheep follow him. Unbelievers don't.

Not true. Sheep begin out in life like any other sinner, a dead , lost sinner.

 

[Renniks]

Do you, my friend, believe that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men without exception? Perhaps many who read this will answer, Yes. I then ask you, Why are not all men without exception saved? You will probably respond, because they do not believe in Jesus Christ. I will respond that if Christ died for all their sins, He died for their sin of unbelief, and taketh it away as well Jn 1:29, hence as Saviour from sin, He must save from unbelief Matt 1:21. If Christ died for all ones sins, then they must not die for them, for dying in unbelief is equivalent to dying in all your sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

You see that, if you die in unbelief, you die in your sins, which supposedly Christ has already died for and satisfied Gods Eternal justice for. In this instance one makes God unjust for punishing someone's sins twice, in Christ their Surety and then in themselves, that's unjust to Christ the Saviour, who suffered and died and the sinner He suffered and died for. However we know God is a Just God and Saviour Isa 45:21

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.69

What a twisted logic!
The atonement isn't a calculus formula.

 

[TEXBOW]

Do you, my friend, believe that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men without exception? Perhaps many who read this will answer, Yes. I then ask you, Why are not all men without exception saved? You will probably respond, because they do not believe in Jesus Christ. I will respond that if Christ died for all their sins, He died for their sin of unbelief, and taketh it away as well Jn 1:29, hence as Saviour from sin, He must save from unbelief Matt 1:21. If Christ died for all ones sins, then they must not die for them, for dying in unbelief is equivalent to dying in all your sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

You see that, if you die in unbelief, you die in your sins, which supposedly Christ has already died for and satisfied Gods Eternal justice for. In this instance one makes God unjust for punishing someone's sins twice, in Christ their Surety and then in themselves, that's unjust to Christ the Saviour, who suffered and died and the sinner He suffered and died for. However we know God is a Just God and Saviour Isa 45:21

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.69

You have backed yourself in a corner. It's OK to discover that you have been wrong in your theology. We all grow and learn. It's best to examine yourself and pray. Better to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you on this issue rather than planting your feet in the sand. One of the very reasons I'm on here is to learn and check myself.

 

[Kermos]

Nonsense! Saying something is merely a metaphor doesn't minimize anything. Some things are literal in scripture and some are metaphors. It's important to understand what is what.

There's a difference between the connotation of "Sheep is a metaphor" versus the connotation of your writing of "Sheep is a merely a metaphor for believers. It doesn't say he only died for them anyway. It says he draws all men.".

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep" (Jesus Christ, John 10:11).

Lord Jesus says He dies for His own sheep and He makes no mention one more beyond His own sheep, see all of John 10 too.

Jesus does limit that He died for the sheep, that is, His own sheep.

Now, back to connotations, you most certainly were minimizing scripture as just demonstrated, and God had me write to you as follows that illuminate your error.

There is the serious element because your post used loaded words like "merely" and "only" for you to minimize the Word of God in John chapter 10.

Pastor Jesus controls His own - HIS OWN - for whom He specifically died to cover His own's sins because He says "he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out" (John 10:3).

And because Pastor Jesus says "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep" (Jesus Christ, John 10:11).

See, the sheep are His own sheep.

You fail to know what is what, so your "Nonsense" is ungodly.

Lord and Pastor Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all His own sheep who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).