The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[brightfame52]

More on the word That, to denote purpose and result in the death of Christ Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[brightfame52]

You are claiming Christ only died for certain individuals.

Yes Only His Sheep.

 

[Kermos]

No, no and no. You reversed the order. Believe comes first then being born again which is God's work. The belief is not God believing in himself! How ridiculous!

So says the person who who claims to be a part of "the whole world" in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) thus the evil one encompasses you touching you, yet the evil one touches not Christians (1 John 5:18); therefore, your "No, no and no" has a foundation of deception (Matthew 7:26-27).

You provide no scriptural support for your self willed position (2 Peter 2:9-10).

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) says Lord Jesus.

You wickedly wrote "The belief is not God believing in himself!" trying to derail the Word of God.

Jesus says the belief in Jesus by a man is truly "the work of God", believing in Jesus by a man is not controlled be the man, but truly believing in Jesus by a man is not controlled be the God (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10).

Again, the gospel, the Jesus, that you confess fails to save persons even though your Jesus died for such persons sins. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for those persons to enter his Joy, so those persons who died suffer the wrath of God because your he who died is miserably weak (Galatians 1:6-7).

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Kermos]

Not. It's not insufficient. It's fully sufficient for whosoever will believe. God isn't saving people against their will. And it never fails to save those who meet the condition set by God for salvation.

You claim that Jesus died for the sins of everybody, but the lady in the example below is in hell with your Jesus having died for her sins.

The words "whosoever will believe" are dependent upon "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

Still, you persist in asserting that God's will is soooo weak that God fails to save some people from the wrath of God for whom Jesus died.

Somewhere, there is a lady who rejected Jesus Christ, and she died while she rejected Jesus Christ.

The gospel, the Jesus, that you confess failed to save her even though your Jesus died for her sins. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for her to enter his Joy, so she who died suffers the wrath of God because your he who died is miserably weak. (Galatians 1:6-7)

Truly, the gospel of Jesus Christ includes that He succeeds in saving every single one of the people for whom he died from the wrath of God (John 10:28). Jesus Christ is Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), and there is none like God (Isaiah 46:9).

Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Kermos]

Yes he does. And many reject his drawing.
Some even after salvation fall away.
There's many atheists on these forums who claimed once to be Christians. I have no reason to doubt that most were. While you in your Calvinism have to make up some silly tale about them never being saved to begin with.
"So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. "

You started off your post with deception.

In human terms, "draw" is like drawing water from a well, see John 4:7 for an example of a well. The water is muscled up out of the well, that is, the water is drawn.

No man, absolutely no one can reject the strong arm of the Lord that draws a person! The one who rejects Jesus is not such a person that is drawn to Jesus before such a person dies.

The Christ of us Christians says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27-28).

Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Renniks]

You wickedly wrote "The belief is not God believing in himself!" trying to derail the Word of God.

If you were correct you should be praising God for having me write that. There can be no wickedness without Free will. You have God arguing with himself about what God ordained to happen.

 

[Renniks]

The Christ of us Christians says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand"

Who are the sheep? The ones who listen and follow. Jesus doesn't save those who decided to reject him. The sheep and goats are metaphors for people who believe in Christ and people who don't.

 

[Renniks]

The words "whosoever will believe" are dependent upon "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

You patch together verses that don't fit together. You want to claim John 3:16 and John 6:29 are together? Do you read your Bible or just pick out the individual verses and smash them together?

And you totally misunderstand John 6:29. The work that one must do is to believe. Jesus is using the word: "work" because the unbelieving Jews used it... and they were wrong. He saying it's not work at all, it's believing on him.

Salvation is conditional upon belief.

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

You are like those Jews saying " This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

In other words, they thought they were just irresistibly chosen to be God's special people. But Jesu says they must partake of him to be saved.

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

It's not about a chosen few. They didn't want to believe because they knew his parents. They refused to accept that he came down from heaven.
They were not rejected by God. They rejected Jesus.

And as far as chosen people, Judas was chosen but he used his freedom to betray Jesus.

 

[Renniks]

Yes Only His Sheep.

Sheep is a merely a metaphor for believers.
It doesn't say he only died for them anyway. It says he draws all men.

 

[Kermos]

If you were correct you should be praising God for having me write that. There can be no wickedness without Free will. You have God arguing with himself about what God ordained to happen.

Self willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) is the scriptural term because nowhere in scripture is man imparted free will, so free will is the precepts of men leading to worship of God in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Self willed people are in the flesh, not Spirit, and "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17). People in the flesh are wicked.

It is written “'Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,' declares the Lord YHWH, 'rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?'" (Ezekiel 18:23).

Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Scott Downey]

Who are the sheep? The ones who listen and follow. Jesus doesn't save those who decided to reject him. The sheep and goats are metaphors for people who believe in Christ and people who don't.

Jesus does tell us who He dies for, so what you and many others are doing is adding on to His words.

John 10:11
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Christ also mentions about 'other sheep I have'. God knows those who will be His who are not yet His, That is due to God's foreknowing of them as His people, so they are the other sheep.
So Christ only dies for the sheep who belong or will belong to Christ. The non sheep belong not to God as they will never be of God, they are the children of the devil.

1 John 3:9-10
New King James Version
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Notice Christ says He must go and get these other sheep he has.
They WILL hear, the result is there WILL be one flock, and one shepherd.
Obviously these other sheep have not yet heard, And they are not the children of the devil, they are different even though they do not yet believe in Christ, they will believe. But they are like the children of the devil, just like Ephesians 2 says of the 'others' who in that chapter ore evil children of the devil. Others tells us about a different group from the main core.

John 10:15-17
New King James Version
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

So even though they were not children of the devil, they were still by their nature children of wrath, not yet being born of God.

But of course God foreknew them as His people so God makes them alive according to His love for His foreknown to Him people. God does not make everyone alive, He only makes alive those He foreknows as His whom He loves. This is a God thing, not a human thing. God is the author of you faith, your faith was given, granted to you and had nothing at all to do with your thoughts or actions.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

You have been saved by His grace because of His love for you by the means of faith which He also granted to you.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

 

[Kermos]

Who are the sheep? The ones who listen and follow. Jesus doesn't save those who decided to reject him. The sheep and goats are metaphors for people who believe in Christ and people who don't.

Shepherd Jesus' sheep are the ones that He chooses for the Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Lord and Pastor Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all His sheep who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Kermos]

You patch together verses that don't fit together. You want to claim John 3:16 and John 6:29 are together? Do you read your Bible or just pick out the individual verses and smash them together?

And you totally misunderstand John 6:29. The work that one must do is to believe. Jesus is using the word: "work" because the unbelieving Jews used it... and they were wrong. He saying it's not work at all, it's believing on him.

Salvation is conditional upon belief.

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

You are like those Jews saying " This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

In other words, they thought they were just irresistibly chosen to be God's special people. But Jesu says they must partake of him to be saved.

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

It's not about a chosen few. They didn't want to believe because they knew his parents. They refused to accept that he came down from heaven.
They were not rejected by God. They rejected Jesus.

And as far as chosen people, Judas was chosen but he used his freedom to betray Jesus.

Oh, I see your self willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) is that scripture should not be taken with scripture, such as "believe" being defined by the Word of God in John 6:29 then taking this with "believing" in John 3:16.

King Jesus defines belief with His saying of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (Jesus Christ, John 6:29), and it is highly distasteful to you Renniks.

Wait, not only that, but you wickedly tell the Word of God that His use of the conjunction "for" at the beginning of John 3:16 is wrong!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Kermos]

Sheep is a merely a metaphor for believers.
It doesn't say he only died for them anyway. It says he draws all men.

Now, it seems you are too proud to be called one of Pastor Jesus' (John 10:16) sheep.

You have been shown that the drawing mentioned by Jesus in John 12:32 is not unto salvation for every person everywhere (post to you in this thread), yet you malign the Word of God by asserting that God's will is soooo weak that God fails to save some people from the wrath of God for whom Jesus died.

Somewhere, there is a lady who rejected Jesus Christ, and she died while she rejected Jesus Christ.

The gospel, the Jesus, that you confess failed to save her even though your Jesus died for her sins. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for her to enter his Joy, so she who died suffers the wrath of God because your he who died is miserably weak. (Galatians 1:6-7)

Truly, the gospel of Jesus Christ includes that He succeeds in saving every single one of the people for whom he died from the wrath of God (John 10:28). Jesus Christ is Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), and there is none like God (Isaiah 46:9).

Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Renniks]

Jesus does tell us who He dies for, so what you and many others are doing is adding on to His words.

John 10:11
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Christ also mentions about 'other sheep I have'. God knows those who will be His who are not yet His, That is due to God's foreknowing of them as His people, so they are the other sheep.
So Christ only dies for the sheep who belong or will belong to Christ. The non sheep belong not to God as they will never be of God, they are the children of the devil.

1 John 3:9-10
New King James Version
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Notice Christ says He must go and get these other sheep he has.
They WILL hear, the result is there WILL be one flock, and one shepherd.
Obviously these other sheep have not yet heard, And they are not the children of the devil, they are different even though they do not yet believe in Christ, they will believe. But they are like the children of the devil, just like Ephesians 2 says of the 'others' who in that chapter ore evil children of the devil. Others tells us about a different group from the main core.

John 10:15-17
New King James Version
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

So even though they were not children of the devil, they were still by their nature children of wrath, not yet being born of God.

But of course God foreknew them as His people so God makes them alive according to His love for His foreknown to Him people. God does not make everyone alive, He only makes alive those He foreknows as His whom He loves. This is a God thing, not a human thing. God is the author of you faith, your faith was given, granted to you and had nothing at all to do with your thoughts or actions.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

You have been saved by His grace because of His love for you by the means of faith which He also granted to you.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

You realize that Arminians have all the same verses also, correct?
Again if you understand that "sheep" is a metaphor for all who will believe it cancels the issue. And saying he lays his life down for them, doesn't mean he doesn't die for everyone. It's not an either /or... Calvinists read thier theology into scripture by reading most everything backwards.


"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Now you can try to warp that any way you want but it's pretty plain that he did indeed die for everyone.

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,"
.
Oh no, there's another one!

"But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

Starting to see a theme here?

 

[Renniks]

Now, it seems you are too proud to be called one of Pastor Jesus' (John 10:16) sheep.

Now you are just being silly.

 

[Oceanprayers]

While there seems to be a lot of bible passages that make the gospel seem to have been intended for God's elected ones, how would we know we're one of those before we stand before God's judgement?

I'm thinking of all those wacky cult types who made news doing bad in Jesus name. They thought they were saved.

 

[Renniks]

Shepherd Jesus' sheep are the ones that He chooses for the Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

That was said to the twelve, one of whom was ultimately lost.
So you have a big problem if it's about salvation.

 

[Kermos]

Now you are just being silly.

There is the serious element because your post used loaded words like "merely" and "only" for you to minimize the Word of God in John chapter 10, and I cited John 10:16 because Jesus calls Himself Pastor.

BTW, Pastor Jesus is controls His own - HIS OWN - for whom He specifically died to cover His own's sins because He says "he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out" (John 10:3).

And because Pastor Jesus says "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep" (John 10:11).

Lord and Pastor Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all His own sheep who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Renniks]

There is the serious element because your post used loaded words like "merely" and "only" for you to minimize the Word of God

Nope I was not minimizing scripture, only your odd interpretation of scripture.