The Moral Law not Abrogated by Christ to Believers

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

crftd
you are are right to a point but it seems to me you have fallen into a ditch though. you are right that we are no longer walk under the law but we are still supposed to obey the law because the law is good and it comes from God. before Christ we were held responsible to obey the law and once a year(correct me if i am wrong) isreal offered sacrifices for their sins(this is a picture of coming before God and asking forgiveness for our mistakes). the law according to the NT covenant is now written on our hearts. but the law is still around but now it is seen in a different form then before. we are still held responsible for disobeying the law of God but because of Christ we can now repent and get straight with God immediately. remember the old testament is a type and shadow of what we have now. i suggest if you doubt me to find it in the Word. you should be able to find it in the old testament in type and shadow as well as in the new testament.

God bless.

Those in Christ are dead to the law of Moses, and are commanded to obey the law of Christ. The law of Moses only had relevance before the cross. Since the cross. we are under a new law; the law of faith. You are either justified and perfected by law, or you are justified and perfected through faith. You can't have it both ways because they are mutually exclusive and there is no middle ground. But really the law cannot make anyone holy or righteous, so those who chose that way are lost.

 

[Mungo]

crftd
you are are right to a point but it seems to me you have fallen into a ditch though. you are right that we are no longer walk under the law but we are still supposed to obey the law because the law is good and it comes from God. before Christ we were held responsible to obey the law and once a year(correct me if i am wrong) isreal offered sacrifices for their sins(this is a picture of coming before God and asking forgiveness for our mistakes). the law according to the NT covenant is now written on our hearts. but the law is still around but now it is seen in a different form then before. we are still held responsible for disobeying the law of God but because of Christ we can now repent and get straight with God immediately. remember the old testament is a type and shadow of what we have now. i suggest if you doubt me to find it in the Word. you should be able to find it in the old testament in type and shadow as well as in the new testament.

God bless.

We are supposed to obey those laws that are applicable to us in the New Covenant.

We do not have to obey laws that are no longer applicable to us. Thos laws were good, but they were only for some people at a certain time.

The problem with some people is that they want us to obey laws that are not applicable to us because they do not understand the difference.

 

[williemac]

The born again process is a continual process. You are continually growing day, you are continuing to grow daily as a Christian. Yes, there are things which seem to instantly change on day 1. But that comes from a constant wooing of the Holy Spirit upon the hearts of men. We are slowly learning how to talk, as the new Creation.

I think I know what you are saying, but disagree with your terminology. The new birth is an event, not a process. If there is any process that follows, then fine. But that is subsequent to being born again. It is not process that causes one to be born again. Your initial birth into this world was also an event. There is a process of life afterward, but it is not called the birth process.

The new man however, cannot be justified IF HE TURNS AWAY, which he can CHOOSE to do after choosing Jesus Christ. When he learns of sins he does not want to give up, and hold onto them as strongly as he possibly can. You may never justify yourself, but you certainly can choose NOT to be justified by Christ after being saved.

The new man does not turn away. Paul told the Ephesians to put off the old man and put on the new man. If I follow this advise, then there is a part of me that is doing the putting off of the one and putting on the other. That part of me is ME. I am a soul. The word comes from psyche. It basically means the mind. If I am the one putting on the new man, then I would be the one also falling away.
The new man is merely the new nature within me, in my spirit. The new birth is the giving and receiving of this new nature within our spirit. Thus a new man is created in me (Eph.4:24). That which is born of the Spirit IS spirit, not soul.
However, I would not venture to say that one is deliberately choosing to walk away from eternal life. The Galatians for example, were told that they had fallen from grace. This was not a choice on their part to walk away from justification, but rather the result of being duped into going back to justification by law. There are many who appear to walk away from Christ, but we are told that they never were of Him or in Him in the first place.

All sin is not blatant transgression of the law. I explained that to you. Willful sin after you receive knowledge of the truth, is sin which you hold onto and refuse to let go of. It is not sin, where you are IGNORANT of. It is not sin which you repent of. It is sin which is never stopped, never repented of. And because of this sin, the person committing them is then trampling on Jesus Christ. And for this, the soul that was once saved, loses their salvation.

And again I repeat, no work will ever gain someone Christ, or salvation. But for the works you DON'T do, you CAN lose your salvation. For refusing to be obedient to Jesus Christ, you can and will lose your salvation.

Here you go again, telling us what you think willful sin is. As I said before, there is only one reference in scripture for this term. Your commentary on it has no basis in the context from which it is taken. The last verse in the chapter indicates that it is intertwined with unbelief. Therefore it does not apply to a born again believer in sin, willful or otherwise.

But if you insist that a refusal to be obedient to Christ will cause you to lose salvation, then I might ask if you think that He will judge you for not obeying Him. I say this because in John 5:24, Jesus promised that those who are of faith in Him will not come into judgment. So if we lose our life, it will not be as a result of having been judged...unless we fall completely out of the faith that protects us from judgment. Please read that reference for yourself if you don't agree.

And please, do you go around literally murdering people to stay in God's favor now that you're saved? No, it's obedience to God, because you love Him. It's the same thing with every other commandment. I obey, because I love Him, because that law, is now written in my heart. That law of God, the perfect transcript (when rightly understood) of Jesus Christ's obedient character, is now written on my heart.

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, what a silly comment! Who on earth would have the mindset to murder people to stay in favor with God? let's rather talk sensibly about this subject rather than use ridiculous examples.
Having said that, I absolutely agree that we love Him because He first loved us. I absolutely agree that the fruit we bear is a result of that which he has placed within us in the new birth, by faith. But the new birth is essential. Otherwise a person is simply obeying God from out of his own Adamic nature. This will not be acceptable to God. The law is in our hearts because He put it there when He gave us His own righteousness. There is no need for any commandments. His love is in the new man. The law in our hearts is the new nature within us. It is the unrighteous, not the righteous, that need laws.

But allow me to comment on law for a second. The thing which makes law relevant as law, is enforcement. Otherwise it is merely a rule. Imagine if the police went on strike, how much crime would follow. Enforcement is essential in law. And in the case of God's moral law, the enforcement is death. That enforcement was put on Jesus on our behalf, and is placed onto us, in our old man, by proxy through faith in Him. We have already died for sin. The old man is positionally dead with Christ. The Christian who sins is exempt from judgment to death (John 5:24), but not exempt from chastening to correction. Why is it that so many are forgetting about chastening?

 

[Raeneske]

I am dead to the law of Moses through Christ. How can I keep a law I am dead to?

btw, you didn't answer my question.

So you're honest answer is, you are dead to the 10 Commandments. If you do not keep the 6th Commandment, you will not be under condemnation by God? Is this your final answer? I will answer you, when I get my answer.

I think I know what you are saying, but disagree with your terminology. The new birth is an event, not a process. If there is any process that follows, then fine. But that is subsequent to being born again. It is not process that causes one to be born again. Your initial birth into this world was also an event. There is a process of life afterward, but it is not called the birth process.


The new man does not turn away. Paul told the Ephesians to put off the old man and put on the new man. If I follow this advise, then there is a part of me that is doing the putting off of the one and putting on the other. That part of me is ME. I am a soul. The word comes from psyche. It basically means the mind. If I am the one putting on the new man, then I would be the one also falling away.
The new man is merely the new nature within me, in my spirit. The new birth is the giving and receiving of this new nature within our spirit. Thus a new man is created in me (Eph.4:24). That which is born of the Spirit IS spirit, not soul.
However, I would not venture to say that one is deliberately choosing to walk away from eternal life. The Galatians for example, were told that they had fallen from grace. This was not a choice on their part to walk away from justification, but rather the result of being duped into going back to justification by law. There are many who appear to walk away from Christ, but we are told that they never were of Him or in Him in the first place.


Here you go again, telling us what you think willful sin is. As I said before, there is only one reference in scripture for this term. Your commentary on it has no basis in the context from which it is taken. The last verse in the chapter indicates that it is intertwined with unbelief. Therefore it does not apply to a born again believer in sin, willful or otherwise.

But if you insist that a refusal to be obedient to Christ will cause you to lose salvation, then I might ask if you think that He will judge you for not obeying Him. I say this because in John 5:24, Jesus promised that those who are of faith in Him will not come into judgment. So if we lose our life, it will not be as a result of having been judged...unless we fall completely out of the faith that protects us from judgment. Please read that reference for yourself if you don't agree.


With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, what a silly comment! Who on earth would have the mindset to murder people to stay in favor with God? let's rather talk sensibly about this subject rather than use ridiculous examples.
Having said that, I absolutely agree that we love Him because He first loved us. I absolutely agree that the fruit we bear is a result of that which he has placed within us in the new birth, by faith. But the new birth is essential. Otherwise a person is simply obeying God from out of his own Adamic nature. This will not be acceptable to God. The law is in our hearts because He put it there when He gave us His own righteousness. There is no need for any commandments. His love is in the new man. The law in our hearts is the new nature within us. It is the unrighteous, not the righteous, that need laws.

But allow me to comment on law for a second. The thing which makes law relevant as law, is enforcement. Otherwise it is merely a rule. Imagine if the police went on strike, how much crime would follow. Enforcement is essential in law. And in the case of God's moral law, the enforcement is death. That enforcement was put on Jesus on our behalf, and is placed onto us, in our old man, by proxy through faith in Him. We have already died for sin. The old man is positionally dead with Christ. The Christian who sins is exempt from judgment to death (John 5:24), but not exempt from chastening to correction. Why is it that so many are forgetting about chastening?

There's a good chance, my terminology may be a little off. So sorry about that!

You bring up a valid point, about the new man NOT putting off Christ. And to an extent I can certainly see where you're coming from. That would take more study to attempt to understand, to see if what you're saying is true. Then again, we are warned that people can and do turn away from God, even after a conversion where they received the Holy Ghost and all... this I call rashly denying the light that is shining so bluntly in front of your face.

Our main issue it seems, on believing that a person can never turn away. I have a hard time believing God would just give His Holy Spirit to anyone (and this may not be what you're saying at all), and then take it away. These people clearly had some potential, God clearly wrapped His arms around them. They just simply turned around and said, "Naww, I love my sins."

Again, I do not see the same thing you see in Hebrews 10. I see the admonition of us holding onto our faith, but I also see provoking others to good works, which is a work which demonstrates that they have faith already. It then speaks of exhorting one another, etc. Yes, we have faith when we do these things, but these things are a matter of obedience. We exhort one another to obey God's laws, and His commandments. He then speaks of willful sin. What is sin? 1 John 3:4 explains what sin is - the transgression of the law. To my understanding, absolutely nothing is being wrested out of context. I see what you are saying, but I simply do not agree with you.

My faith is such, that we believe we ARE being judged - right now. Judgment starts with us, and then we receive our reward, whatever it may be. Then the wicked are judged by us, whilst we are in heaven, and not now.

There is already one such person on this board, whom I just asked actually if they believe that they may refuse to keep the 6th Commandment, and still remain in God's favor. Their response was, they were dead to the law. That is their mindset. Obeying the 10 Commandments is null and void to them. There are many of this type of "faith" increasing (so I've seen). I put faith in quotes, as believing God says, "Okay, go and disobey" is presumption, not faith.

I believe the Christian is exempt, simply if they repent. I do not believe you go can on, with an unrepentant sin, or sins, which you know for a fact you've done and refuse to in your heart to repent, you're turning yourself into a walking dead man. Say for instance, one believes they can lie... And they refuse to repent. They allow themselves to be slain by the law, because they loved their sins, more than the mercy of God and His righteousness. I have not forgotten about chastening. I know it happens. But that is a fall, and not willful, unrepentant sin (to the best of my ability to understand).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So you're honest answer is, you are dead to the 10 Commandments. If you do not keep the 6th Commandment, you will not be under condemnation by God? Is this your final answer? I will answer you, when I get my answer.

I'm not going to play your silly little game. I gave you my answer. If you cannot hear it, or respond to my question, I will leave you in your ignorance.

 

[Episkopos]

In other words you made it up.



the law is spirtual: because of its God-given origin and its purpose in leading human being to God. Thus it does not belong to the world of earthbound natural humanity. (The New Jerome Bib,ical Commentary).

Paul is referring to the OT Law (SInai covenant) - the whole law - morals, statutes, precepts, ceremonial etc.; all of it given by God to the Israelites. God's eternal moral law is only a part of that.

You may be confusing God's laws with the moralizing interpretations imposed on them by men...

God knew we were sinners when He saved us. While we were yet sinners,Christ died for the ungodly. Lets face it, we can still sin. But God's intention is to do away with our species altogether. This will solve the sin issue. Nothing else will. We are a new creation. That is His solution.
However, the process has not yet been finished. Does anyone imagine that sin can halt this process? If it could, then the process could not even have made it to the ground floor. Salvation is not given, life is not given, on the basis of a person's ability to quit sinning.

Of all the reasons a person needs to behave himself, justification is not one of them. It is not our behavior that justifies us before God, It is our humility. It is our faith in Him. Faith that no matter what, He will complete what He began in us. If it comes to light that He has not begun anything yet in a person, it is not his behavior that will correct this. It is and always will be his humility and faith. Those are the real issues. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. Those who feel justified by their behavior are treading in risky waters.

Amen!

 

[Mungo]

You may be confusing God's laws with the moralizing interpretations imposed on them by men...

Not I'm not cofusingf such things at all.

 

[Episkopos]

Not I'm not cofusingf such things at all.

Then that's that! ;)

 

[Netchaplain]

IMO, the believer no longer functions under any type of law because he has only to do with the "fruit of the Spirit . . . against such there is no law" (Gal 5:22, 23). This means the believer doesn't have to be ruled or told (other than by the law of the Spirit) to do good, because this is his only desire toward God.

Besides, morality has to do with natural law (principle) where the standard for goodness is comparison of one another, but the standard for the believer is the Lord Jesus. Believer's do not need to be told to be good; the Father, by the life of Christ and through the Holy Spirit causes them to be so (Phil 2:13).

 

[Raeneske]

I'm not going to play your silly little game. I gave you my answer. If you cannot hear it, or respond to my question, I will leave you in your ignorance.

Then neither will I answer that which you asked me.

IMO, the believer no longer functions under any type of law because he has only to do with the "fruit of the Spirit . . . against such there is no law" (Gal 5:22, 23). This means the believer doesn't have to be ruled or told (other than by the law of the Spirit) to do good, because this is his only desire toward God.

Besides, morality has to do with natural law (principle) where the standard for goodness is comparison of one another, but the standard for the believer is the Lord Jesus. Believer's do not need to be told to be good; the Father, by the life of Christ and through the Holy Spirit causes them to be so (Phil 2:13).

Your first part is all good and well, but Galatians 5:22-23 is not saying there is not a law to be obeyed. It's simply saying there is no law against all those actions being done. There is no law against love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. Those are all good things, so there is no law against such actions. But now lets consider the act of murder, which is an act of hatred. Is there a law against that? Yes. Thou shalt not kill, Commandment Number Six. Simply put: There is still a law to be obeyed. It's just that the law is now written upon our hearts, instead of only being written in tablets of stone.

As for the second part, yes. But of course believers must be taught to do some things, because there are babes in Christ which will do things that will knock your socks off. We've all been there before. ^_^

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Raeneske, on 24 May 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

Then neither will I answer that which you asked me.

That is because you can't. Your teachings contradict the teachings of Christ and the apostles, and your heart knows it. You trip over the rock of offense and the stone of stumbling.

 

[Netchaplain]

Then neither will I answer that which you asked me.



Your first part is all good and well, but Galatians 5:22-23 is not saying there is not a law to be obeyed. It's simply saying there is no law against all those actions being done. There is no law against love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. Those are all good things, so there is no law against such actions. But now lets consider the act of murder, which is an act of hatred. Is there a law against that? Yes. Thou shalt not kill, Commandment Number Six. Simply put: There is still a law to be obeyed. It's just that the law is now written upon our hearts, instead of only being written in tablets of stone.

As for the second part, yes. But of course believers must be taught to do some things, because there are babes in Christ which will do things that will knock your socks off. We've all been there before. ^_^

My meaning is that those who are Christian obey willfully and out of the desire God continually gives them (Phil 2:13), unlike before regeneration, where one must be told or forced by law to do so against their desire.

Your correct that "there is no law against all those actions" (fruit of the Spirit), also neither against those who are in them, this is why the Gentile believer is freed from "the law of sin and death" and the Jewish believer has been freed from this and the Mosaic law (ten commandments, sacrificial ordinances, etc.).

 

[williemac]

So you're honest answer is, you are dead to the 10 Commandments. If you do not keep the 6th Commandment, you will not be under condemnation by God? Is this your final answer? I will answer you, when I get my answer.



There's a good chance, my terminology may be a little off. So sorry about that!

You bring up a valid point, about the new man NOT putting off Christ. And to an extent I can certainly see where you're coming from. That would take more study to attempt to understand, to see if what you're saying is true. Then again, we are warned that people can and do turn away from God, even after a conversion where they received the Holy Ghost and all... this I call rashly denying the light that is shining so bluntly in front of your face.

Our main issue it seems, on believing that a person can never turn away. I have a hard time believing God would just give His Holy Spirit to anyone (and this may not be what you're saying at all), and then take it away. These people clearly had some potential, God clearly wrapped His arms around them. They just simply turned around and said, "Naww, I love my sins."

Again, I do not see the same thing you see in Hebrews 10. I see the admonition of us holding onto our faith, but I also see provoking others to good works, which is a work which demonstrates that they have faith already. It then speaks of exhorting one another, etc. Yes, we have faith when we do these things, but these things are a matter of obedience. We exhort one another to obey God's laws, and His commandments. He then speaks of willful sin. What is sin? 1 John 3:4 explains what sin is - the transgression of the law. To my understanding, absolutely nothing is being wrested out of context. I see what you are saying, but I simply do not agree with you.

My faith is such, that we believe we ARE being judged - right now. Judgment starts with us, and then we receive our reward, whatever it may be. Then the wicked are judged by us, whilst we are in heaven, and not now.

There is already one such person on this board, whom I just asked actually if they believe that they may refuse to keep the 6th Commandment, and still remain in God's favor. Their response was, they were dead to the law. That is their mindset. Obeying the 10 Commandments is null and void to them. There are many of this type of "faith" increasing (so I've seen). I put faith in quotes, as believing God says, "Okay, go and disobey" is presumption, not faith.

I believe the Christian is exempt, simply if they repent. I do not believe you go can on, with an unrepentant sin, or sins, which you know for a fact you've done and refuse to in your heart to repent, you're turning yourself into a walking dead man. Say for instance, one believes they can lie... And they refuse to repent. They allow themselves to be slain by the law, because they loved their sins, more than the mercy of God and His righteousness. I have not forgotten about chastening. I know it happens. But that is a fall, and not willful, unrepentant sin (to the best of my ability to understand).

I replied to this on another thread. I suggest you look into the definition of repentance. It does not mean to quit sinning, or to turn from sin. Sin is not implied anywhere in the definition. It simply means to change one's mind. The only time it means to turn from a sin is when a context reveals that a particular sin is the subject.

I will not expand on this unless you ask or question it. However, think of this. The sacrifice of Jesus was made on our behalf as fulfilling the judgment of death against sin. Sin has been judged and justice has been served upon our Lord. There are dozens of passages that speak of the result of our faith in this sacrifice. One such result is the remission of sin. John said.."behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world".

So here is how it plays out in the minds of they who have mis defined repentance. They believe that we have to repent of the thing that has been taken away, so that it can be taken away. I would ask, if we quit sinning, then what is there to take away?

You see, in asking that question, I am referring to the qualification for the remission of sin. What qualifies us? Repentance from sin? That makes no sense. What makes sense is that we repent from unbelief.

What you said is that a Christian is exempt from judgment for sin if they repent from sin. Yeh, sure. We will not be fined for speeding if we don't speed. That is basically what you are saying. However, the passage concerning exemption makes no reference to repentance. It makes reference to faith. (John 5:24). We are exempt from judgment through faith in Him, in His sacrifice. (see also John 6:50,51).

The truth is that anywhere in scripture that speaks of how one gets saved, faith is always the method, and repentance specifically from sin is never mentioned. The teaching that repentance from sin is included in the qualification for salvation is a bad teaching. It has caused much harm and confusion. Much of the church has assumed it to be correct and do not question it.

 

[Mungo]

So you're honest answer is, you are dead to the 10 Commandments. If you do not keep the 6th Commandment, you will not be under condemnation by God?

Answered in post #5

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The truth is that anywhere in scripture that speaks of how one gets saved, faith is always the method, and repentance specifically from sin is never mentioned. The teaching that repentance from sin is included in the qualification for salvation is a bad teaching. It has caused much harm and confusion. Much of the church has assumed it to be correct and do not question it.

The man is lucid, accurate and right. +1

 

[Raeneske]

Answered in post #5

My question was not directed at you, nor the group, but specifically one member. I am aware of our obligation towards the sixth commandment.

I replied to this on another thread. I suggest you look into the definition of repentance. It does not mean to quit sinning, or to turn from sin. Sin is not implied anywhere in the definition. It simply means to change one's mind. The only time it means to turn from a sin is when a context reveals that a particular sin is the subject.

I will not expand on this unless you ask or question it. However, think of this. The sacrifice of Jesus was made on our behalf as fulfilling the judgment of death against sin. Sin has been judged and justice has been served upon our Lord. There are dozens of passages that speak of the result of our faith in this sacrifice. One such result is the remission of sin. John said.."behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world".

So here is how it plays out in the minds of they who have mis defined repentance. They believe that we have to repent of the thing that has been taken away, so that it can be taken away. I would ask, if we quit sinning, then what is there to take away?

You see, in asking that question, I am referring to the qualification for the remission of sin. What qualifies us? Repentance from sin? That makes no sense. What makes sense is that we repent from unbelief.

What you said is that a Christian is exempt from judgment for sin if they repent from sin. Yeh, sure. We will not be fined for speeding if we don't speed. That is basically what you are saying. However, the passage concerning exemption makes no reference to repentance. It makes reference to faith. (John 5:24). We are exempt from judgment through faith in Him, in His sacrifice. (see also John 6:50,51).

The truth is that anywhere in scripture that speaks of how one gets saved, faith is always the method, and repentance specifically from sin is never mentioned. The teaching that repentance from sin is included in the qualification for salvation is a bad teaching. It has caused much harm and confusion. Much of the church has assumed it to be correct and do not question it.

Yes, repentance is to change your mind. But what do you change your mind about? The Lord Jesus Christ, life itself, sin, etc. These things have to do with repentance, though not specifically outlined in the definition of repentance. And no, that's not how it plays out in my mind. It is only taken away when you repent. When you refuse to repent, you can carry that to the grave. And that is not good news to end up there, refusing to repent.

But see that's how it works. You're only exempt from it when you repent of the sin, once you have come to the full knowledge. You're only judged based off the light you are given anyways. When you come to the knowledge that something is sin, you change your mind about that sin. Then you confess and forsake that sin.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you speak of qualification.

Repentance from sin is never mentioned? Ezekiel 18:21, Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:19, Matthew 3:6, Daniel 9:20. Some of these speak of souls which seem to already be walking with God, and some of these speak of souls which have not come to God. I'm not denying that faith is always mentioned. But forsaking your sins is mentioned as well. It shows you are saved by Grace from your sins. Then it teaches you that you must forsake them. You cannot willfully hold onto your sins. That is a recipe for disaster.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

My question was not directed at you, nor the group, but specifically one member. I am aware of our obligation towards the sixth commandment.



Yes, repentance is to change your mind. But what do you change your mind about? The Lord Jesus Christ, life itself, sin, etc. These things have to do with repentance, though not specifically outlined in the definition of repentance. And no, that's not how it plays out in my mind. It is only taken away when you repent. When you refuse to repent, you can carry that to the grave. And that is not good news to end up there, refusing to repent.

But see that's how it works. You're only exempt from it when you repent of the sin, once you have come to the full knowledge. You're only judged based off the light you are given anyways. When you come to the knowledge that something is sin, you change your mind about that sin. Then you confess and forsake that sin.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you speak of qualification.

Repentance from sin is never mentioned? Ezekiel 18:21, Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:19, Matthew 3:6, Daniel 9:20. Some of these speak of souls which seem to already be walking with God, and some of these speak of souls which have not come to God. I'm not denying that faith is always mentioned. But forsaking your sins is mentioned as well. It shows you are saved by Grace from your sins. Then it teaches you that you must forsake them. You cannot willfully hold onto your sins. That is a recipe for disaster.

I concur! :)

 

[williemac]

My question was not directed at you, nor the group, but specifically one member. I am aware of our obligation towards the sixth commandment.



Yes, repentance is to change your mind. But what do you change your mind about? The Lord Jesus Christ, life itself, sin, etc. These things have to do with repentance, though not specifically outlined in the definition of repentance. And no, that's not how it plays out in my mind. It is only taken away when you repent. When you refuse to repent, you can carry that to the grave. And that is not good news to end up there, refusing to repent.

But see that's how it works. You're only exempt from it when you repent of the sin, once you have come to the full knowledge. You're only judged based off the light you are given anyways. When you come to the knowledge that something is sin, you change your mind about that sin. Then you confess and forsake that sin.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you speak of qualification.

Repentance from sin is never mentioned? Ezekiel 18:21, Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:19, Matthew 3:6, Daniel 9:20. Some of these speak of souls which seem to already be walking with God, and some of these speak of souls which have not come to God. I'm not denying that faith is always mentioned. But forsaking your sins is mentioned as well. It shows you are saved by Grace from your sins. Then it teaches you that you must forsake them. You cannot willfully hold onto your sins. That is a recipe for disaster.

My intention is to be involved with the subject at hand. I have a habit of jumping in for that purpose.

What do you mean when you use the term "forsake your sin"? As far as qualification, what I mean is what qualifies us for salvation.
So let me explain my concern. People are told that they need to repent from sin in order to qualify for salvation. However, salvation includes the remission of sin. That word means "take away". God has promised that He would take away our sin. John the baptist declared "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world".

So here is the contradiction that I see. People are told that in order to have their sins remitted, they need to forsake them. So the question in my mind would be..just who is taking away the sin..us, or God?

Please don't assume that I am saying we should not forsake sin. But that term does not mean the same with everyone. Many will inevitably take it to mean that they need to stop sinning in order to be saved. This mixes works with faith, for salvation. Works are to come after salvation, not as a qualifier for it. This includes the forsaking of sin. (Actually the word that is used is to 'abstain' from sin. )

I couldn't help but notice that your references to repentance from sin all are from pre-Calvary time frames. The one exception, 1John 1:9 talks about the 'confession' of sin. The word repentance is not mentioned in that passage. Why do you confuse the two? As for the old covenant references, we need to understand that the law and the prophets are proof for our benefit, that man cannot successfully satisfy the righteous requirement of the law. All those demands within that context were given toward that end; to prove that we need a Savior. It reveals our failure, not our success.
Back to confession vs.repentance: The man praying on the corner in Luke 18:10-14, did not repent from his sin nor did he forsake it. He confessed it and asked for mercy, and went away justified. What this passage and others reveal is not so much the forsaking of it but the acknowledgment of it.

This acknowledgment includes the recognition that sin is not acceptable. There should be no argument about that fact. But what also is not acceptable to God is the notion that a man can be justified by his own actions to take away his own sin.Thus the forsaking of sin cannot be a condition or qualification on our part for salvation from sin. Again, this would spell contradiction. If we could successfully forsake it to the point of removing it from our being (which we can't) , then salvation from it would not be necessary.

Our role in salvation is to receive it freely. This role should never be married with God's role, which is to be the Savior. We do not save ourselves. We receive salvation. He who seeks to save his own life will lose it. If our motivation in abstaining from sin is to assist God in accomplishing our own justification, righteousness, or life, then we have crossed over into His territory. I would not advise that.

 

[Raeneske]

My intention is to be involved with the subject at hand. I have a habit of jumping in for that purpose.

What do you mean when you use the term "forsake your sin"? As far as qualification, what I mean is what qualifies us for salvation.
So let me explain my concern. People are told that they need to repent from sin in order to qualify for salvation. However, salvation includes the remission of sin. That word means "take away". God has promised that He would take away our sin. John the baptist declared "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world".

So here is the contradiction that I see. People are told that in order to have their sins remitted, they need to forsake them. So the question in my mind would be..just who is taking away the sin..us, or God?

Please don't assume that I am saying we should not forsake sin. But that term does not mean the same with everyone. Many will inevitably take it to mean that they need to stop sinning in order to be saved. This mixes works with faith, for salvation. Works are to come after salvation, not as a qualifier for it. This includes the forsaking of sin. (Actually the word that is used is to 'abstain' from sin. )

I couldn't help but notice that your references to repentance from sin all are from pre-Calvary time frames. The one exception, 1John 1:9 talks about the 'confession' of sin. The word repentance is not mentioned in that passage. Why do you confuse the two? As for the old covenant references, we need to understand that the law and the prophets are proof for our benefit, that man cannot successfully satisfy the righteous requirement of the law. All those demands within that context were given toward that end; to prove that we need a Savior. It reveals our failure, not our success.
Back to confession vs.repentance: The man praying on the corner in Luke 18:10-14, did not repent from his sin nor did he forsake it. He confessed it and asked for mercy, and went away justified. What this passage and others reveal is not so much the forsaking of it but the acknowledgment of it.

This acknowledgment includes the recognition that sin is not acceptable. There should be no argument about that fact. But what also is not acceptable to God is the notion that a man can be justified by his own actions to take away his own sin.Thus the forsaking of sin cannot be a condition or qualification on our part for salvation from sin. Again, this would spell contradiction. If we could successfully forsake it to the point of removing it from our being (which we can't) , then salvation from it would not be necessary.

Our role in salvation is to receive it freely. This role should never be married with God's role, which is to be the Savior. We do not save ourselves. We receive salvation. He who seeks to save his own life will lose it. If our motivation in abstaining from sin is to assist God in accomplishing our own justification, righteousness, or life, then we have crossed over into His territory. I would not advise that.

We can only obtain salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He takes away our sins. By forsaking our sins, I mean that we give them up. We stop sinning after we have received the gift of God through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. We do not bend a knee to accept the gift, and then continue living the life we have always lived. We change after we have accepted the free gift of God. You have not truly forsaken your sins if you continue to cherish them, even after professing acceptance of the Gift of God.

From my understanding, there is no contradiction. You must forsake your sins, but to forsake them does not bring you salvation. A man can realize he has done evil, but still reject the gift of God, and forsake the ways of his youth. It will not be a whole reformation though, as only God can bring about that. But say this man forsakes some of his sins. He will no longer do them. But has his sin been taken away? No, only Jesus can take away the sins. The record in heaven still remains that this man has committed these sins.

Noted, you are not trying to say that we are not to forsake sin.

We you name abstain, I call by term forsake.

I believe that you are wrong when you say the man did not repent of his sin. The man's mind was changed about his sin, and he viewed it as a grievious thing to do. But, he also confessed it, and asked for mercy. The passage does bring to mind acknowledgement of the sin, but sinners do not truly acknowledge their sins, unless they have brought some form of repentance to the table. Before finding Christ, their hearts are already being wooed, and they are looking for the way to be free. Christ frees them from that guilt. In that selfsame moment, Christ gives them the ability to obey God.

You are right, man cannot be saved by his own actions, it is the gift of God; he simply must accept the gift. But I will say that whether you forsake your sins or not will affect your salvation. You can freely receive the gift. But the gift given can be returned, by our acting out of willful sin. It is such for every Christian.

 

[williemac]

You are right, man cannot be saved by his own actions, it is the gift of God; he simply must accept the gift. But I will say that whether you forsake your sins or not will affect your salvation. You can freely receive the gift. But the gift given can be returned, by our acting out of willful sin. It is such for every Christian.

Willful sin? I suppose you have a definition of willful sin. However, I am not interested in YOUR definition of it. The term "sin willfully" is used just one time in scripture. It has a context. The meaning of it is not ours to speculate or contrive. The author of Hebrews used the term and in a context where he was speaking of they who sin outside of the sacrifice of Jesus, through unbelief. Read the last verse in the context, (10:39). We "believe" to the saving of the soul. This lines up with Rom.10:9.

Here is the problem. In regards to they who concur with your suggestion that one can give back eternal life by sinning,,I have observed at least several interpretations from various brothers and sisters as to just what degree of sinning constitutes willful sin. There is no universal agreement on the term's meaning. This indicates that the author did not define it. However, the error is in the conclusion that the author was suggesting that a 'believer' will be judged if he sins willfully. He was not saying any such thing. If he was, then he contradicted the words of Jesus in John 5:24...." Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. " .....unless he sins willfully? Sorry, I don't see that part in His promise.
In Heb.10, the author is speaking of they who reject the sacrifice of Jesus. Therefore there is no longer a sacrifice for them. The old ones have been removed and replaced by His one sacrifice for sin. But John, in 1John 2:1, said that if we sin we have an advocate with the Father, namely Jesus. His sacrifice is a perpetual offering for sin.

In Rev.2:20-22, Jesus refers to those whom He calls "MY SERVANTS", who were being beguiled to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. His answer to this was to assure them that they would be chastened with great tribulation (trouble) unless they repented of these. This is how Jesus has chosen to deal with a sinning servant of His. Chastening. I think we should just let Him decide what constitutes the giving back of eternal life.

We received life by grace, through faith. We give it back through the changing of our minds away from faith. The unfortunate thing is that the bible gives an example of this in Galatians. I call it unfortunate because the same example infiltrates the church even today. It is the delusion that we are to add our own obedience into the arena of justification. Therefore, if I can give back justification to life by sinning, then by default, I keep it by not sinning. So the formula for salvation then becomes..."we are justified by faith and not sinning."

Allow me to use the bible terms for this...We would be justified by faith and then afterward, also by the keeping of the law. This is essentially what you are saying, whether you realize it or not.

This doctrine of leaven is being peddled throughout the church and is alive and well on this website. It is not worded so abruptly as I just put it. It is more subtle. I am merely bringing to light what it amounts to.

It amounts to the conclusion that the cross, the sacrifice for sin, applies only to those who don't sin anymore. How absurd!