The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Spiritual Israelite]

So only people are burned up in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

Is that what I said? No. I believe the entire earth surface will be burned up.

It is 2 different events. Works are burned up in 2 Peter 3. Humans are burned up in Revelation 20.

You are not reading 2 Peter 3:10-12 carefully.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

This doesn't say only the works are burned up. It specifically says "the earth also AND the works that are therein shall be burned up". That means the earth will be burned up and that includes "the works that are therein". So, you are changing the text to fit your doctrine.

There is literally nothing of earth destroyed in Revelation 20, that is you adding to the text. Yes, an interpretation is adding to the text, when the text does not imply nor explicitly state a point.

We all do that, including you. You say that Revelation 20 talks about Jesus reigning on the earth even though it does not imply or explicitly state that. So, based on what you're saying, that would mean we are all adding to the text. Which is ridiculous.

What John was talking about was purposely adding to or changing what the text means. To interpret it wrongly, but not on purpose, is not what John was talking about. If my interpretation is wrong, it isn't because I'm trying to change the text to fit my view. It would just be an honest mistake in interpretation. Same is true if you're wrong in your interpretation of Revelation 20. Having the wrong interpretation is not what John was talking about.

People have been consumed by fire in the past. People have been swallowed whole into the pit. And yes cities have been destroyed. But you can not take all those facts, and prove they all happen at a future point in time, when the text does not even imply that.

It explicitly states that. You just choose to ignore that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It means they are subject to his authority. What it doesn't mean is "destroyed". Inserting that is called eisegesis.

You obviously didn't even read my entire post. I showed you from 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 that the timing of His enemies all being under His feet and being made His footstool is at "the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father". When do you think 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 will be fulfilled? Take the time to actually address my arguments instead of just basically telling me I'm wrong without doing anything to back up your claim.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yet there is. Accept the scriptures or deny them, up to you.

Do you accept what scriptures like Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and John 5:28-29 teach? No. So, you are not the one to tell me things like this.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you accept what scriptures like Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and John 5:28-29 teach? No. So, you are not the one to tell me things like this.

Everyone accepts those scriptures. You don't accept that Revelation speaks of two resurrections despite it referring to the last group having to wait to have theirs. So, YOU are not the one to tell me things like this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Everyone accepts those scriptures.

Premils like you don't.

You don't accept that Revelation speaks of two resurrections

Yes, I do. The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection and we all spiritually have part in it. The other resurrection it speaks of is the resurrection of the wicked.

despite it referring to the last group having to wait to have theirs. So, YOU are not the one to tell me things like this.

How are you accepting what those scriptures I referenced indicate, which is that all of the righteous and wicked will be gathered and judged at the same time (at the end of the age when Christ returns)?

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This clearly indicates that all of the righteous and wicked will be gathered and judged at the same time. Why do you not accept what passages like this teach?

How can anyone trust what you're saying in this thread when you can't even recognize that all of Christ's enemies being put under His feet and made His footstool has to do with Him destroying all of His enemies, as 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 indicates? Do you not believe that 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 will occur after the thousand years? I'm pretty sure you do.

 

[ewq1938]

Premils like you don't.

This is false.

 

[Marty fox]

Well then those at the end are not raised at all. They have been spiritually dead and still spiritually dead. So you have no resurrections period in Revelation 20. Those beheaded remain beheaded for all time then? They are just spiritually souls for all of eternity?

You all really need to accept a physical resurrection at some point here. And certainly if being in the LOF is a physical experience, then why do you deny that to those beheaded?

Where in Revelation 20 does it say those beheaded get a physical body after 1,000 years?

All since the Cross have had a physical permanent incorruptible body in Paradise, just like Jesus who has a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. Those in Christ are exactly like Christ in every way, even as a son of God. The only thing left is putting on our spirit as a robe of white.

And no where is it mentioned that happens to those beheaded. No souls ever in the last 6,000 years ruled and reigned with Christ. Until the Cross, souls waited in Abraham's bosom. They were not ruling and reigning with Christ. Souls do not rule and reign now. Those in Paradise rule and reign in a permanent incorruptible physical body. So this retro spiritual mumbo jumbo about beheaded people in the future, does not follow, because you are putting those beheaded back into the condition of Abraham's bosom. A condition that ended in 30AD.

And no resurrection proves pre-mill. Pre-mill just states Jesus comes back and removes sin and all wickedness from the earth, and creates a new earth, and then reigns over that new earth, until He hands current creation back to God. If you don't accept the length as 1,000 years, then that rule will be indefinite for thousands of years, but there will be a physical rule of Christ on earth after the Second Coming. Those dead in sheol and Death will remain dead until Jesus hands back creation at the end of His physical rule on earth. Satan will remain bound until that indefinite period of time is over. Jesus will still be reigning in Jerusalem, when Satan is loosed. Jesus does not stop reigning during Satan's little season. Jesus does not stop reigning until He hands current creation back to God. Amil complain pre-mill deny the reign of Christ. No, we accept Christ is ruling now, and at the Second Coming on earth, until Jesus as King, for 1,000 years per John, is finished subjecting all things, and Death is the last thing subjected, after those who rebel are taken care of. Amil deny Christ ruling on earth at the Second Coming. Amil think Jesus hands back a burnt offering, and calls that "being subjected".

This is how I see it

We are all physically and spiritually alive at birth

When we sin we die spiritually

When we accept Jesus we are raised spiritually

When we die we die physically

At the end of the world we are all raised in new bodies and judged or rewarded

 

[Marty fox]

The wicked dead are us currently alive today. We are walking around on the earth. Not confined in sheol.

That is what the word mortal means that you all keep claiming we are. We are literally dead in living human flesh.

The dead in sheol have no flesh, unless they do. That debate has never been settled in 5,000 years.

You all seem to lump all the dead together when you have to take each verse in context.

The dead standing at the GWT, don't necessarily have physical bodies, unless they have always had them in sheol. And if they have always had physical bodies, what then is a resurrection?

A resurrection would be eternal life with God, and certainly standing at the GWT is not the same as being with God. It is just being judged by God. If a resurrection happens at the GWT, then that individual is given eternal life with God, and not tossed into the LOF. So the dead at the GWT are not resurrected, but only judged and tossed into the LOF.

Certainly you can't say a resurrection at the GWT just gave them a physical body, because you say those beheaded were never given a physical body. That would be hypocritical, inconsistent, and contradicting your own point.

If the dead at the GWT had a physical resurrection, then those beheaded at the start of the Millennium would also have a physical body, and reign on earth for 1,000 years. Certainly Revelation 20 is about earth, since those reigning on the earth, are surrounding by their offspring. It is their offspring consumed by fire, not people alive today.

If we are literally dead in living human flesh they why did Paul say that we are raised with Christ?

 

[Marty fox]

No, there is no sin in the Millennium.

Daniel 9:24:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

To seal up means to bring to a close. Revelation 10:5-7

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Not all of Scripture has been brought to an end. Only at the 7th Trumpet will that happen.

For 1,000 years after the Second Coming, there will be no more sin, and decay on the earth. It will be everlasting righteousness. A child who rebels will be instantly killed and placed in Death, the last enemy. There will be no Satan, until loosed after the 1,000 years.

Jesus will leave the right hand of God at the Second Coming. That is the time all of the wicked will be eradicated. Matthew 25:31 declares Jesus comes to earth with all His angels. Jesus personally separates the sheep and goats. Per Matthew 13, Jesus and the angels are here on earth when the wheat and tares are separated. Per Matthew 24 Jesus and the angels are on the earth. Per Revelation 6 and the 6th Seal, the stars symbolize the angels are come to the earth along with Jesus at the Second Coming. You did not quote all those verses that do indicate Jesus leaving heaven to be physically present on earth. Not a single verse in Revelation 20 on that point, because Jesus is already on the earth prior to Revelation 20:1.

If there's no sin in the 1000 years then what about child who rebels will be instantly killed and placed in Death?

You just contradicted yourself

 

[Marty fox]

That would mean the Lord Jesus was already sitting at the right hand when David was alive on the earth over 1000 years before the Cross. He was sitting there waiting to be born of a virgin.

Of course Jesus was there before the first advent but in the context of Psalm 110 its talking about after the first advent

 

[Timtofly]

The nonsense never ends from you.

And you use the word mortal to indicate your nonsense. The word immortal as a noun describing humans is not found any where in God's Word. So your pagan nonsense is an affront to God. So keep laughing.

 

[Timtofly]

You can't be serious. What else does it mean for His enemies to be made His footstool? Your doctrinal bias is really showing through here. You should be embarrassed.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

This passage makes it crystal clear that His enemies will have all been put under His feet once "he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power" and once the last enemy, death, is destroyed. And we know that happens AFTER the thousand years.

As a pre-mill the earth was made a footstool at the Cross. Why are Amil putting that off until a future date? Are you futurist, Amil?

 

[ewq1938]

This is how I see it

We are all physically and spiritually alive at birth

When we sin we die spiritually

When we accept Jesus we are raised spiritually

Actually a second birth happens when Christ is accepted. In the bible it's called being "born again".

 

[Marty fox]

Actually a second birth happens when Christ is accepted. In the bible it's called being "born again".

Yes that’s what I was saying raised spiritually as in spirituality born

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is false.

Is it now? Well, then tell me how you interpret this passage:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It's time for you to prove that you understand passages like this and don't misinterpret them. You can say that all you want, but you need to show that. So, please, explain how this passage lines up with your doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As a pre-mill the earth was made a footstool at the Cross. Why are Amil putting that off until a future date? Are you futurist, Amil?

Here comes Tim with his utter nonsense again. You are trying to say that 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is already fulfilled, which would mean that Jesus already delivered the kingdom to the Father? Is that what you're trying to say?

 

[Timtofly]

Is that what I said? No. I believe the entire earth surface will be burned up.

You are not reading 2 Peter 3:10-12 carefully.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

This doesn't say only the works are burned up. It specifically says "the earth also AND the works that are therein shall be burned up". That means the earth will be burned up and that includes "the works that are therein". So, you are changing the text to fit your doctrine.

We all do that, including you. You say that Revelation 20 talks about Jesus reigning on the earth even though it does not imply or explicitly state that. So, based on what you're saying, that would mean we are all adding to the text. Which is ridiculous.

What John was talking about was purposely adding to or changing what the text means. To interpret it wrongly, but not on purpose, is not what John was talking about. If my interpretation is wrong, it isn't because I'm trying to change the text to fit my view. It would just be an honest mistake in interpretation. Same is true if you're wrong in your interpretation of Revelation 20. Having the wrong interpretation is not what John was talking about.

It explicitly states that. You just choose to ignore that.

Of course it implies Jesus is reigning on earth. Those people beheaded were given the first resurrection and reign on earth, because later they are surrounded by their offspring. No where in the whole chapter does it talk about what is happening in heaven. Nor implies anything going on in heaven.

You say in one breath the earth is dissolved like the heavens, then interpret your "interjection of fact" as just the surface is burned.

The earth is also what? It never says. Yes, the "and" declares the works of earth are burned up, but not people.

"And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths."

This is the 6th Trumpet. This is not Revelation 20:9

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Certainly God is not the same army in the 6th Trumpet, the 2nd woe. This last judgment of God before Jesus has nothing whatsoever to do with the Second Coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And you use the word mortal to indicate your nonsense. The word immortal as a noun describing humans is not found any where in God's Word.

The concept of us putting on immortality is clearly there in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, so what is your problem with calling believers immortal once they put on immortality? What a ridiculous thing to complain about.

So your pagan nonsense is an affront to God.

Pagan nonsense? Is that what you're calling what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54?

So keep laughing.

Okay, I will.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course it implies Jesus is reigning on earth. Those people beheaded were given the first resurrection and reign on earth, because later they are surrounded by their offspring.

This is all assumptions on your part. Nothing more.

No where in the whole chapter does it talk about what is happening in heaven. Nor implies anything going on in heaven.

Where else are the souls of the dead in Christ except in heaven? You are clueless.

You say in one breath the earth is dissolved like the heavens, then interpret your "interjection of fact" as just the surface is burned.

In 2 Peter 3:5-7 the scope of this event is compared directly to what happened with the flood, so I think it's a reasonable assumption that it's talking about the surface of the earth. The entire surface of the earth will be burned just like the entire surface of the earth was covered in water by the blood in Noah's day.

The earth is also what?

It doesn't say the earth IS also, it says "the earth also". That means not only will the heavens and elements be burned up, but the earth also. That's what it says. You'd know that if you actually read it.

 

[Marty fox]

Is it now? Well, then tell me how you interpret this passage:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It's time for you to prove that you understand passages like this and don't misinterpret them. You can say that all you want, but you need to show that. So, please, explain how this passage lines up with your doctrine.

Yes we need to always take the direct words out of Jesus mouth over the words of the prophets. Not because the prophets were ever wrong but because they are often misunderstood.