The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[ewq1938]

Humm really?

Psalm 110:1
Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Show us where "destroyed" is used.

 

[ewq1938]

Why can't you back up your view with scripture like I did??? All you have here Bro is your opinion.

Wrong, I have documented everything with scripture already.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If it’s the Father who puts Jesus enemies as His footstool then is Revelation 19 a literal coming before the thousand years?

It can’t be because king David told us that Jesus will sit at the Fathers right hand until all of His enemies are destroyed. Revelation 19 shows the symbolic judgement of the sword of Jesus mouth His word which condemns all of His enemies.

Best I can understand it, from the Premil pov, Jesus comes to *initiate* the thousand years. That means God puts all of Jesus' enemies under his feet in the present era all the way up until he comes back in victory over the Antichrist.

As Israel conquered Canaan under the direction of God's word so now the Church is "conquering" nations and individuals with the Gospel by leading them into Christian conversion. This subdues satanic activity so far as Christians live a Christian life and no longer give place to the Devil.

But the final victory, still yet to be won, is the victory over death which we already possess by legal document. We already have the *right* to overcome death, but at Christ's Coming, the saints will overcome death by obtaining immortal bodies. This is the final victory Christ will win for the saints in the present era.

And it happens at Christ's 2nd Coming. That's when God finishes putting Jesus' enemies under his feet, so that his Kingdom can be established on earth.

This then is a particular campaign that is completed at the 2nd Coming. It doesn't mean that all enemies of God and Christ are permanently defeated at Christ's Coming, since Satan is released once again later at the end of the Millennial Period.

The enemies that are subdued today are subdued only for the purpose of establishing Christ's Kingdom on the earth, which will actually begin at Christ's Coming. Today, people are only signed up for it. But the document is reliable! :)

 

[jeffweeder]

Wrong, I have documented everything with scripture already.

what post was that?

 

[ewq1938]

what post was that?

Start at the first post of this thread and slowly work forward.

 

[jeffweeder]

Start at the first post of this thread and slowly work forward.

I was hoping you would engage me in our conversation today.
Never mind, and god bless.

 

[Timtofly]

Thats doesn’t prove premillennialism the ones who are raised first are raised spiritually.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Well then those at the end are not raised at all. They have been spiritually dead and still spiritually dead. So you have no resurrections period in Revelation 20. Those beheaded remain beheaded for all time then? They are just spiritually souls for all of eternity?

You all really need to accept a physical resurrection at some point here. And certainly if being in the LOF is a physical experience, then why do you deny that to those beheaded?

Where in Revelation 20 does it say those beheaded get a physical body after 1,000 years?

All since the Cross have had a physical permanent incorruptible body in Paradise, just like Jesus who has a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. Those in Christ are exactly like Christ in every way, even as a son of God. The only thing left is putting on our spirit as a robe of white.

And no where is it mentioned that happens to those beheaded. No souls ever in the last 6,000 years ruled and reigned with Christ. Until the Cross, souls waited in Abraham's bosom. They were not ruling and reigning with Christ. Souls do not rule and reign now. Those in Paradise rule and reign in a permanent incorruptible physical body. So this retro spiritual mumbo jumbo about beheaded people in the future, does not follow, because you are putting those beheaded back into the condition of Abraham's bosom. A condition that ended in 30AD.

And no resurrection proves pre-mill. Pre-mill just states Jesus comes back and removes sin and all wickedness from the earth, and creates a new earth, and then reigns over that new earth, until He hands current creation back to God. If you don't accept the length as 1,000 years, then that rule will be indefinite for thousands of years, but there will be a physical rule of Christ on earth after the Second Coming. Those dead in sheol and Death will remain dead until Jesus hands back creation at the end of His physical rule on earth. Satan will remain bound until that indefinite period of time is over. Jesus will still be reigning in Jerusalem, when Satan is loosed. Jesus does not stop reigning during Satan's little season. Jesus does not stop reigning until He hands current creation back to God. Amil complain pre-mill deny the reign of Christ. No, we accept Christ is ruling now, and at the Second Coming on earth, until Jesus as King, for 1,000 years per John, is finished subjecting all things, and Death is the last thing subjected, after those who rebel are taken care of. Amil deny Christ ruling on earth at the Second Coming. Amil think Jesus hands back a burnt offering, and calls that "being subjected".

 

[Timtofly]

You have it backwards. Your view of Rev 20 contradicts the more straightforward passages in the rest of the NT regarding the judgment of the just and the unjust. There are many of them that you will do well to listen to.


Rev 22
12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

At his coming we enter the city not your millennium.

Jude

　14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

The Lord executes his judgment on all the ungodly at the Lords coming , not a 1000 years later.


Matthew 13:40
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

49 So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2thess 1
5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. 6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.


I could go on.

There is not a single verse in Revelation 20 about a Second Coming. You all have to make up some type of Second Coming scenario and add that to the text, which is something John told us not to do. Those consumed by fire are not the dead. They are not the wicked who destroy the earth. They don't destroy the earth. They have a protest march across the breadth of the earth. There is no indication they destroy anything. They could have taken a train or vehicles depending on the technology available.

How are people moving across the earth supposed to symbolize death and destruction of the earth? Would not just living on the earth have already done that during the whole period of time?

This judgment of the wicked in those verses you posted, happened at the Second Coming. The 1,000 year reign is post the Second Coming on a newly created earth, after it was destroyed by the wicked, who were judged at the Second Coming. Revelation 20 does not happen prior to the judgment of the wicked, because this earth is in a state of bondage of death and decay. It cannot be given to God, until all death and decay has been removed. It will not take 1,000 years to renovate the earth. It will be created anew before humans live as trees and have offspring for 1,000 years. Then handed back to God.

Jesus hands back a creation full of life. Not an empty creation of death, and destruction. Certainly not a burnt to a crisp offering. That is not a creation worthy of being handed back to God. God gives creation a Sabbath of rest. This is the condition that is handed back, minus a few people who are convinced that Satan can do a better job than the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

Sorry but I don’t understand why you wrote what you wrote what do you mean when you said “the unsaved walking around on the earth”

The wicked dead are us currently alive today. We are walking around on the earth. Not confined in sheol.

That is what the word mortal means that you all keep claiming we are. We are literally dead in living human flesh.

The dead in sheol have no flesh, unless they do. That debate has never been settled in 5,000 years.

You all seem to lump all the dead together when you have to take each verse in context.

The dead standing at the GWT, don't necessarily have physical bodies, unless they have always had them in sheol. And if they have always had physical bodies, what then is a resurrection?

A resurrection would be eternal life with God, and certainly standing at the GWT is not the same as being with God. It is just being judged by God. If a resurrection happens at the GWT, then that individual is given eternal life with God, and not tossed into the LOF. So the dead at the GWT are not resurrected, but only judged and tossed into the LOF.

Certainly you can't say a resurrection at the GWT just gave them a physical body, because you say those beheaded were never given a physical body. That would be hypocritical, inconsistent, and contradicting your own point.

If the dead at the GWT had a physical resurrection, then those beheaded at the start of the Millennium would also have a physical body, and reign on earth for 1,000 years. Certainly Revelation 20 is about earth, since those reigning on the earth, are surrounding by their offspring. It is their offspring consumed by fire, not people alive today.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is obvious to most, and not you, is that Revelation 20 separates the judgment and resurrection of the saved from the the judgment and resurrection of the unsaved.

Obvious to most? Have you done a global survey of people to see what they believe about this? How would you know something like that? There are probably just as many Amils as Premils, overall, so you're clearly just making something up here that you know nothing about. It's obvious from passages like Daniel 12:1-2, Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and John 5:28-29 that there can't possibly be a long period of time between the judgment and resurrection of the saved and the unsaved. But, you just completely disregard or twist those passage to fit your false interpretation of Revelation 20.

This is thus true of any scriptural passage of the same subject. It's just clearer in Revelation 20 than in some others. this is why Amillennialism prefers passages outside of Revelation so the truth of the two days of resurrection and judgment can be obscured and denied.

Just read Revelation 20. It shows people being judged and resurrected BEFORE the thousand years and then show other people being judged and resurrected AFTER the thousand years. Never forget "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" proves the Premillennialism interpretation. Some of the dead lived again BEFORE the thousand years and "the rest" lived again AFTER the thousand years.

It doesn't say those referenced in Revelation 20 live again, it says they live. The word "zao" is used in verse 4 in relation to those who reign with Christ while the word "anazao" is used in verse 5 to refer to the rest of the dead. The word "anazao" means to rise again (or to be revived), but the word "zao" means to be alive or to live. But, you don't care about things like this because of your doctrinal bias.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

David did not say that.

Look how wrong you were about this. You apparently never read Psalm 110:1 before. This shows how your opinions can't be taken seriously because you didn't even know something like this that should be common knowledge.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is not a single verse in Revelation 20 about a Second Coming. You all have to make up some type of Second Coming scenario and add that to the text, which is something John told us not to do.

Interpreting the text and adding to the text are two completely different things. It's not surprising that you wouldn't understand the difference. We see Revelation 20:9 as being the same event as 2 Peter 3:10-12 which we see as a description of what will happen at the Second Coming. So, we're not adding anything, we're simply interpreting it according to our understanding of other scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The wicked dead are us currently alive today. We are walking around on the earth. Not confined in sheol.

The nonsense never ends from you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Show us where "destroyed" is used.

You can't be serious. What else does it mean for His enemies to be made His footstool? Your doctrinal bias is really showing through here. You should be embarrassed.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

This passage makes it crystal clear that His enemies will have all been put under His feet once "he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power" and once the last enemy, death, is destroyed. And we know that happens AFTER the thousand years.

 

[Timtofly]

Don’t you believe that people sin in the millennium?

Jesus is sitting on His throne now heaven until He finally returns.

Psalm 110.1
Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Did you notice that it’s the Father who makes Jesus enemies His foot stool?

Let’s read the whole Psalm

1 The Lord says to my lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.

4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand[c];
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,[d]
and so he will lift his head high.


Psalm 110 tells us that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father until the Father puts all of Jesus’ enemies under His

In Revelation chapter 20:7-10 satan carries out his final assault on the church after the thousand years and is then cast into the lake of fire.

Thus Psalm 110 teaches us that Jesus won’t leave the Fathers right hand until He crushes the kings of the earth’ cast satan into the lake of fire and then judges the nations as also shown in Revelation chapter 20.

No, there is no sin in the Millennium.

Daniel 9:24:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

To seal up means to bring to a close. Revelation 10:5-7

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Not all of Scripture has been brought to an end. Only at the 7th Trumpet will that happen.

For 1,000 years after the Second Coming, there will be no more sin, and decay on the earth. It will be everlasting righteousness. A child who rebels will be instantly killed and placed in Death, the last enemy. There will be no Satan, until loosed after the 1,000 years.

Jesus will leave the right hand of God at the Second Coming. That is the time all of the wicked will be eradicated. Matthew 25:31 declares Jesus comes to earth with all His angels. Jesus personally separates the sheep and goats. Per Matthew 13, Jesus and the angels are here on earth when the wheat and tares are separated. Per Matthew 24 Jesus and the angels are on the earth. Per Revelation 6 and the 6th Seal, the stars symbolize the angels are come to the earth along with Jesus at the Second Coming. You did not quote all those verses that do indicate Jesus leaving heaven to be physically present on earth. Not a single verse in Revelation 20 on that point, because Jesus is already on the earth prior to Revelation 20:1.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Best I can understand it, from the Premil pov, Jesus comes to *initiate* the thousand years. That means God puts all of Jesus' enemies under his feet in the present era all the way up until he comes back in victory over the Antichrist.

As Israel conquered Canaan under the direction of God's word so now the Church is "conquering" nations and individuals with the Gospel by leading them into Christian conversion. This subdues satanic activity so far as Christians live a Christian life and no longer give place to the Devil.

But the final victory, still yet to be won, is the victory over death which we already possess by legal document. We already have the *right* to overcome death, but at Christ's Coming, the saints will overcome death by obtaining immortal bodies. This is the final victory Christ will win for the saints in the present era.

And it happens at Christ's 2nd Coming. That's when God finishes putting Jesus' enemies under his feet, so that his Kingdom can be established on earth.

This then is a particular campaign that is completed at the 2nd Coming. It doesn't mean that all enemies of God and Christ are permanently defeated at Christ's Coming, since Satan is released once again later at the end of the Millennial Period.

The enemies that are subdued today are subdued only for the purpose of establishing Christ's Kingdom on the earth, which will actually begin at Christ's Coming. Today, people are only signed up for it. But the document is reliable! :)

What you're saying doesn't line up with that this passage indicates:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

At the time when Christ's enemies will all have been put under His feet, He will then hand over and deliver His kingdom to the Father. But, you're trying to say that is when Christ establishes His kingdom on earth. No, that is not at all what scripture teaches, as can be seen in the above passage. Paul taught that at Christ's second coming He will have "destroyed all dominion, authority and power" and will then hand over the kingdom to the Father. It is at that time that death will be destroyed and defeated. That lines up with 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 which indicates that death will be "swallowed up in victory" when Christ returns at the last trumpet. So, Paul clearly knew nothing of a temporary earthly kingdom being established when Christ returns. Instead, he taught that it will be "the end" when He returns. The end of "all dominion, authority and power" and the end of death.

 

[Timtofly]

Humm really?

Psalm 110:1
Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

That would mean the Lord Jesus was already sitting at the right hand when David was alive on the earth over 1000 years before the Cross. He was sitting there waiting to be born of a virgin.

 

[Timtofly]

Interpreting the text and adding to the text are two completely different things. It's not surprising that you wouldn't understand the difference. We see Revelation 20:9 as being the same event as 2 Peter 3:10-12 which we see as a description of what will happen at the Second Coming. So, we're not adding anything, we're simply interpreting it according to our understanding of other scripture.

So only people are burned up in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

It is 2 different events. Works are burned up in 2 Peter 3. Humans are burned up in Revelation 20.

There is literally nothing of earth destroyed in Revelation 20, that is you adding to the text. Yes, an interpretation is adding to the text, when the text does not imply nor explicitly state a point.

People have been consumed by fire in the past. People have been swallowed whole into the pit. And yes cities have been destroyed. But you can not take all those facts, and prove they all happen at a future point in time, when the text does not even imply that.

 

[ewq1938]

there can't possibly be a long period of time between the judgment and resurrection of the saved and the unsaved.

Yet there is. Accept the scriptures or deny them, up to you.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

You can't be serious. What else does it mean for His enemies to be made His footstool?

It means they are subject to his authority. What it doesn't mean is "destroyed". Inserting that is called eisegesis.