The harlot's deception of the nations

[Zao is life]

PS: There Isnt A "Literal" Millennial Kingdom Found In The Scripture, Just So You Wont Be Confused

Sure. I won't be.

 

[Zao is life]

PS: There Isnt A "Literal" Millennial Kingdom Found In The Scripture, Just So You Wont Be Confused

Thanks for making me chuckle.

 

[Earburner]

Well, IMO, you may be right, you may be wrong. I have not made up my mind about the identity of Babylon the Great. I have only two possibilities in my mind: Jerusalem, or the church (i.e an apostate part of the body of Christ).

So I can't argue with your statements.

Thank you for having an open mind. Its our greatest asset, while we are looking at prophecy by the Spirit of God. God's mind within us (if you are born again) can't speak and "guide" us through our mind by His words, if we are full to the brim with corruption, that is of a religious persuasion.
John 16:13

 

[Zao is life]

Correct! But there is a "Spiritual Millennium", and it has been going since the day of Pentecost, aka God's Grace.
The Age of God's Grace, of whom he Himself, puts no time limit of a literal 1000 years on it, simply because as long as men still have faith to believe that God is, He will not close the "door" of his salvation through Jesus.
Its known of by the "religous" term as Amillennnialism.

I love the fact that there are A-mils Pre-mils here. Makes it more lively. Especially because both ignore parts of scripture in order to keep scripture in compliance with their starting-premises.

 

[Earburner]

But you're living in the past. Those who are not in Christ are Gentiles in God's eyes (God is no respecter of persons, regardless of anyone's genetic ancestry).
You can't, and you mustn't read Revelations apart from all of of NT scripture. No, not ever!!

This harlot is a religious one:

"..And it has become the dwelling-place of demons, and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a cage of every unclean bird which has been hated." (Revelation 18:2b).

There are plenty of things already going on in churches that should make the hairs of anyone who believes in Jesus stand up straight.

 

[Zao is life]

Thank you for having an open mind. Its our greatest asset, while we are looking at prophecy by the Spirit of God. God's mind within us (if you are born again) can't speak and "guide" us through our mind by His words, if we are full to the brim with corruption, that is of a religious persuasion.
John 16:13

I'm just honest with myself. If I don't understand in full (i.e only partially), then maybe one day I will. I'm not going to try work it out using spiritual mathematical equations if God has not made it possible for me to see it yet. One misinterpretation of one part of scripture gives birth to a whole lot more, because then other parts of scripture have to be interpreted in a way that makes them comply.

 

[Earburner]

I love the fact that there are A-mils Pre-mils here. Makes it more lively. Especially because both ignore parts of scripture in order to keep scripture in compliance with their starting-premises.

No! One can't and mustn't read Revelations apart from all of NEW Covenant scripture!
No, not ever!

 

[Zao is life]

You correctly outlined the words describing the "fallen woman" , but then you went off onto a tangent of a religious path, and lost the plot!
Jerusalem that now is, is that "bond woman" that was cast out, rejected and then destroyed. That "Great" city is the Mother of harlots. Babylon the "Great" IS FALLEN, and to most all of "church-ianity" , it still remains to be a "Mystery" .

OK it seems to me you're adopting a Preterist view of it. Mine is future.

 

[Earburner]

I'm just honest with myself. If I don't understand in full (i.e only partially), then maybe one day I will. I'm not going to try work it out using spiritual mathematical equations if God has not made it possible for me to see it yet. One misinterpretation of one part of scripture gives birth to a whole lot more, because then other parts of scripture have to be interpreted in a way that makes them comply.

You are absoluetly correct! Remaining nuetral to some degree means that you are humble before the Lord, allowing Him to change and guide you, and not some religious organization.

Zech 4:6 is God's counsel for us to learn HOW to understand His thoughts and His ways.
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
I understand it this way:
Not by might- human self willed effort.
Nor by power- religous persuasion.
But by My Spirit- the Gift of His Holy Spirit.

 

[Earburner]

OK it seems to me you're adopting a Preterist view of it. Mine is future.

I understand the many religious views that are out there, but please know this:
"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Maybe you're talking out of experience, maybe you're making broad assumptions. I fear God. I read the Revelation and the entire Bible with reverence. I compare scripture with scripture, passages to passages and verse to verse. I consider (whatever I know of) cultural context and the nature of idioms in the common use of speech.

Which is why I asked the question that started this thread, and I had it answered because after considering that the harlot deceives with her sorcery etc I failed, not to see (because I saw it before), but to remember that the harlot is to be destroyed by (the ten kings of) the beast - but the beast & its false prophet is destroyed by Christ.

So my question was answered by Ferris Bueller, because he reminded me of the fact - and because I'd forgotten, I remembered the moment I saw what he wrote.

BUT I will never imagine that whoever I speak to in a forum or Christian board "does not read the Bible" etc because that's just making assumptions about people I don't even know.

I've spoken to pastors, ones with generally sound doctrine, that didn't recognize the name Jeshurun from scripture (and that's the name of glorified Israel). If pastor/teachers aren't careful in their reading of scripture, it's a safe bet that their congregations aren't either. A congregation that trusts its pastor, emulates its pastor. A judgmental pastor raises a judgmental congregation, a liberal pastor raises a liberal congregation, etc.
Leadership in the church is not leadership by command, but leadership by example. Eg: "follow me as I follow christ"
The results of carnality in leadership are evident all around us but then again historians call this a post Christian age.
If people read and understood the entire bible, I'd never have an argument with anyone.

 

[Zao is life]

Mystery Babylon is the same as the king of Babylon, 'Lucifer', from Isa 13-14. He is 'Sheshach' in Jeremiah 25:26 and Jeremiah 51:41 (using the Atbash Cypher to encode Sheshach as 'Babel' is the 'mystery'). Also, 'shesh' is the Hebrew word for '6'. The reason it is a 'mystery' is that Babylon traditionally was the 'safe' place for faithful Judah to be scattered to (unfaithful 10 tribed Israel was taken over by Assyria) - and it is 'safe' until the king of Babylon breaks the covenant in the 'middle of the 7' at the end of the 2nd woe, beginning of what is called 'Armageddon'.

There are 3 phases of the red dragon in Revelation: 'red dragon' ('drakon pyrros') from Rev 12, 'Beast from the sea & earth', and the scarlet beast ('therion kokkinon') and Mystery Babylon riding it. Each 'woe' is a different dragon.

• the red dragon attacks at the 1st Trumpet,
• the dragon gives his authority to the Beast from the sea & earth at the 6th Trumpet. King of Babylon confirms the 7 year covenant.
• the king of Babylon defeats the beast from the sea after 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour, (when Jesus says in Matt 24:21-22 that this great tribulation is shortened, he is just referring to the differing time amounts in Daniel 7:12 (a 'season & a time') versus Daniel 7:25 (given into his hand for a time, times, half time) - the 'season & a time' = the '1 hour, 1 day, 1 month, 1 year' reference in Revelation 9:15.
• now 'Israel' thinks Babylon is 'safe' (hence the 'mystery')
• at the end of the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, Lucifer breaks the covenant & calls himself God, triggering what is mistranslated as 'Armageddon', but should be translated as 'Moed' (translated as 'mount of the assembly' from Isaiah 14:13), not 'Meggido'.
• when Rev 17:16 says that the beast & 10 horns will hate the whore & burn her with fire is the same event as the Medes destroying Babylon (Isaiah 13:17)

Thanks for your post. I don't believe in a 7-year tribulation, and in decades no one has been able to convince me that Daniel 9:27 (in fact Daniel 9:24-27) was not all fulfilled by A.D70. I do not believe it's "the Antichrist" making covenant in Daniel 9:27. Christ confirmed the New Covenant, and did everything Daniel 9:24 said He would do - and He did so after the first 69 weeks had passed.

I don't believe any Dispensational interpretations of Biblical prophecy (though I do not reject Pre-Millennialism).

But thanks for your post and continue to share regardless of my SNIOOP (suggested negative influence of other people).

 

[Zao is life]

I understand the many religious views that are out there, but please know this:
"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner.

Yes, and every single Christian has that truth regarding obscure passages in the Revelation and other prophetic books, though they're almost all disagreeing with one another. The body of Christ is schizophrenic in its understanding of the prophetic word of God.

 

[Zao is life]

No! One can't and mustn't read Revelations apart from all of NEW Covenant scripture!
No, not ever!

That's true, but there are those who will go into Christ's Kingdom with resurrected bodies, while others will be bundled and burned.

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:21-23)

"You have subjected all things under his feet." For in order that He put all things under him, He did not leave anything not subjected.

But now we do not see all things having been put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for every son." (Hebrews 2:8-9).

His Kingdom is not of this world (in this Age): "But now (Greek: nyn, "of present time") is my Kingdom not from here". (John 18:36b)

"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15).

I don't know what the Age to come is going to look like. I don't know whether our Lord will remain on His throne in heaven and rule on the earth through His resurrected saints who will be reigning with Him.

I know there are scriptures that could cause Pre-millennialism to fall flat (depending on how they are interpreted), but I also know there are scriptures that cause A-millennialism to fall flat (depending on how they are interpreted).

And I have only spoken briefly about one or two of the things I believe causes A-millennialism to fall flat.

I don't know much, but I know that it's not scriptural to say that Satan has been bound, because a number of New Testament verses say exactly the opposite, and I know that it's not scriptural to say that those who had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast and his image, who are seen reigning with Christ a thousand years, have been reigning with Him since .. (since the days they were born from above of the Spirit of God, or since the ascension of Christ and the start of the "symbolic" millennium, or..?)

So again, I don't claim to know the identity of the harlot, or of the beast, but I consider the possibilities, and bear everything in mind, until something more is revealed to me.

I'm not sitting on any fence, merely acknowledging my limited knowledge before My God.

 

[Zao is life]

I've spoken to pastors, ones with generally sound doctrine, that didn't recognize the name Jeshurun from scripture (and that's the name of glorified Israel). If pastor/teachers aren't careful in their reading of scripture, it's a safe bet that their congregations aren't either. A congregation that trusts its pastor, emulates its pastor. A judgmental pastor raises a judgmental congregation, a liberal pastor raises a liberal congregation, etc.
Leadership in the church is not leadership by command, but leadership by example. Eg: "follow me as I follow christ"
The results of carnality in leadership are evident all around us but then again historians call this a post Christian age.
If people read and understood the entire bible, I'd never have an argument with anyone.

Well I can't argue with any of the above. But the people here are not people in a church who we meet, get to know, and are be able to see how much of the Bible they read, what their attitude is to the scriptures, etc etc.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As clearly shown, Ezekiel Chapter 43 showed the temple "Pattern" to the House of Israel in the Babylonian Captivity let "Them" measure, Ezekiel was instructed to write the ordinances and law in "Their" sight, that "They" keep them, not some future generation as many "Falsely" claim

The temple seen in Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 is nothing more than the 2nd Zerubbabel Temple built 536BC after the Babylonian Captivity, where animal sacrifice for "Sin" was was instructed by "God", prior to the shed blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary, don't be deceived

Ezekiel 43:10-11 & 19-21KJV
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

I haven't visited it in a long time, but I remember reading Ezekiel 40 onward and wondering to myself why the Jews didn't build it back according to Ezekiel's instructions.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes. A harlot is an adulterous woman. Biblically it can only represent a body that is betrothed to its maker, yet is playing the harlot.

The way Revelation speaks of the harlot points towards mankind in general, not the people of God. Example:

"All the nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her immorality. The kings of the earth were immoral with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown wealthy from the extravagance of her luxury.” Revelation 18:3​

 

[Zao is life]

The way Revelation speaks of the harlot points towards mankind in general, not the people of God. Example:

"All the nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her immorality. The kings of the earth were immoral with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown wealthy from the extravagance of her luxury.” Revelation 18:3​

Of course. She rides the beast. She takes advantage of the political and economic system of the beast in order to enrich herself. As a result, she's as totally compromised as almost any politician who wants votes.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I don't claim to know the identity of the harlot, or of the beast, but I consider the possibilities

And I think that's all we can do at this point. Right now I see the harlot as the world system of false religion, materialism, and immorality (which is in line with historical Babylon), and the beast out of the land (the false prophet) as a nation headed by two 'kings' in authority and which acts as the enforcer for the antichrist kingdom that rises out of the sea.

I see the end time beast system ruling the earth in the time of the end as being Marxism and one of the super powers being the false prophet enforcer of that end time system. And together they will destroy capitalism and rule with the iron hand of some form of atheistic Socialism. We can see it happening right before our eyes. Two big, historical nations have already fallen under it's power. Will the US be the third? Most likely. And then the firepower of the US will be used to bring the whole world under the power of the antichrist.

 

[Zao is life]

And I think that's all we can do at this point. Right now I see the harlot as the world system of false religion, materialism, and immorality (which is in line with historical Babylon), and the beast out of the sea (the false prophet) as a nation headed by two 'kings' in authority and which acts as the enforcer for the antichrist kingdom that rises out of the land.

I see the end time beast system ruling the earth in the time of the end as being Marxism and one of the super powers being the false prophet enforcer of that end time system. And together they will destroy capitalism and rule with the iron hand of some form of atheistic Socialism. We can see it happening right before our eyes. Two big, historical nations have already fallen under it's power. Will the US be the third? Most likely. And then the firepower of the US will be used to bring the whole world under the power of the antichrist.

Just bear those tings in mind. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it :)