The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[Randy Kluth]

QUOTE:
"don't get it--parables are not intended to be exact chronologies of what they represent! The chronology of a parable is different than the chronology of what they represent by definition!"

LOL
Chronological sequences ARE PART Of the wedding feast parable, and the virgins parable.
Definately a series of events VIVIDLY declared ,IN SEQUENCE.

Sorry, the story of the Flood is *not* the story of Christ's Coming. Each is a different historical event *by definition!* Armageddon has a big mobilization to Israel, which certainly takes some time. Noah has a completely different timetable because *there is no military mobilization*--different story entirely!

Do you then really think the timetable of each event being compared is significant? Which items are being compared if not the *moral lesson?* Unless the timetables are being compared, then you're just elevating the supposed importance of portions that are irrelevant to the point.

Jesus said," before the flood". ( nothing of a parable. Rather a straight out Bible and historical SETTING. PURE 100% FACT)

Jesus was talking about the Flood and comparing *preparation for judgment*--not a timetable for getting prepared. The important element was *being prepared,* and not *how long it takes to get prepared. Getting prepared for a Flood may be very different from getting prepared for the eternal judgment of your soul!

Historical events can bring one under the tension of eternal judgment--not just Christ's Coming and the White Throne Judgment. When one dies in a Flood, or in 70 AD, that person is immediately brought face to face before God for eternal judgment. Whether it is a Flood, the 70 AD judgment, or Armageddon is irrelevant to the point. The exact chronology concerned with a Flood is completely irrelevant to the chronology of 70 AD or Armageddon.

1) I AM COMING
2) I WILL TAKE 50 % OF A GROUP
3 ) WATCH AND BE READY IN THE PRETRIB SETTING.

You obviously cannot use biblical doctrine--you must use a parable and try to emphasize parts that are related only to the parable in order to create an illegitimate basis for your theory.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Daniel 9:27 begins before the seals are opened. The Church is already in heaven. See Rev 5.


The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. The 144,000 are in heaven as 1st fruits before the 5th seal. The seed of the woman is in heaven at the harvest of the 6th seal.


The Church is in heaven before the seals are open. The seal take place in the 70th week of Daniel and are about the people of Daniel.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The trumpets are the wrath of God. The seed of the woman Israel is in heaven at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. The woman, Israel, those that fled to a place of protection are on earth during the wrath of God. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. The seals are about the people of Daniel.


There are no extensions.


The Church is in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened.


The AOD has to start before the 5th seal.


Correct.


Correct.

Totally incorrect.

The 1st 6 seals are what Jesus taught about in Matthew 24. Revelation 14 happens in the seals.

Here is the great tribulation which is the 5th seal
Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This is the same event in Matthew 24

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



The week begins when there a covenant with many. The seals are opened after the covenant is confirmed. Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest. Then the 1 year wrath of God begins.

Correct.


Correct.

No. The 42 months begins when the AOD is set up. That takes place in the seals and has to be before the 5th seal.


Rev 14 takes place in the seals.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. The covenant is made with many likely starting final week. The covenant is confirmed and the seals are opened. The 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24 also seen in Rev 14

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Then Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the harvest. Seen in Matthew 24 and Rev 14.

The fact that you understand the millennial kingdom starts at the 7th trumpet should tell you that Rev 13 and 14 take place in the seals.




You are confusing Satan as being one of the beasts. He is not. Satan is not given 42 months.


The 5th is the great tribulation. The 5 months is after the 7th seal is opened at the 5th trumpet.


Because the millennial kingdom is set up at the 7th trumpet. It's done. Finished. Wrath is over. When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 you get another view of things that happen in the 1st 6 seals.

Rev 14:14
Mat 24

It must be embarrassing for postribbers.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sorry, the story of the Flood is *not* the story of Christ's Coming. Each is a different historical event *by definition!* Armageddon has a big mobilization to Israel, which certainly takes some time. Noah has a completely different timetable because *there is no military mobilization*--different story entirely!

Do you then really think the timetable of each event being compared is significant? Which items are being compared if not the *moral lesson?* Unless the timetables are being compared, then you're just elevating the supposed importance of portions that are irrelevant to the point.

Jesus was talking about the Flood and comparing *preparation for judgment*--not a timetable for getting prepared. The important element was *being prepared,* and not *how long it takes to get prepared. Getting prepared for a Flood may be very different from getting prepared for the eternal judgment of your soul!

Historical events can bring one under the tension of eternal judgment--not just Christ's Coming and the White Throne Judgment. When one dies in a Flood, or in 70 AD, that person is immediately brought face to face before God for eternal judgment. Whether it is a Flood, the 70 AD judgment, or Armageddon is irrelevant to the point. The exact chronology concerned with a Flood is completely irrelevant to the chronology of 70 AD or Armageddon.

You obviously cannot use biblical doctrine--you must use a parable and try to emphasize parts that are related only to the parable in order to create an illegitimate basis for your theory.

Quote:
""Sorry, the story of the Flood is *not* the story of Christ's Coming. Each is a different historical event *by definition!* Armageddon has a big mobilization to Israel, which certainly takes some time. Noah has a completely different timetable because *there is no military mobilization*--different story entirely!"""

Exactly. Noah in no way is Christ's Coming.
It is a no brainer judgement of God.

JESUS, THE KING, USES that story exactly as it happened, and the SETTING OF " before that flood/judgement," we OBVIOUSLY HAVE : normal life and peacetime AT HIS PRETRIB COMING.
Possibly the most vivid no brainer in the entire bible.

Basically impossible to miss.
But you did.

But you don't stop there...you defend that insanity

 

[Randy Kluth]

Quote:
""Sorry, the story of the Flood is *not* the story of Christ's Coming. Each is a different historical event *by definition!* Armageddon has a big mobilization to Israel, which certainly takes some time. Noah has a completely different timetable because *there is no military mobilization*--different story entirely!"""

Exactly. Noah in no way is Christ's Coming.
It is a no brainer judgement of God.

JESUS, THE KING, USES that story exactly as it happened, and the SETTING OF " before that flood/judgement," we OBVIOUSLY HAVE : normal life and peacetime AT HIS PRETRIB COMING.
Possibly the most vivid no brainer in the entire bible.

You miss the point. There being two separate stories with their own details and their own chronologies, comparing those elements confuse them if they are not part of what's being compared!

For example, in the parable of the 10 Virgins you have 10 Virgins, 5 being unprepared and 5 being prepared. You say that the 50% ratio is relevant in the comparison when we are not told that!

That is a detail relevant to the parable, and not to what it is being compared to with respect to Christ's Coming. The 50% number could simply reflect an equal choice in the matter of preparing for the Groom rather than an exact ratio and number of those preparing for Christ's Coming.

In the matter of the Flood you are asserting that the historical matter of "peace time" is relevant and being compared to a supposed "peace time" before Christ's Coming. We are not, however, told that.

Peace time may or may not have even existed in Noah's day, there being a much different population size in the civilization and less political groups to wage war. The presence of intense wickedness would *not* suggest, at any rate, "peace time!"

Obviously, conditions in Noah's day would be described differently than conditions in the endtimes. Political strife within a single civilization obviously has to be described differently than political strife throughout the endtimes world!

Comparing these matters is not given to be relevant to the comparison. It's *you* who try to make this relevant for the sake of your theory.

And that is the whole point. You are comparing conditions related to each historical event which are unimportant with respect to the compared elements. A parable is not going to be described in the same way as the thing it represents. The example of judgment in the Flood event is not going to be described in the same way as an endtime event it is being compared to.

Using parables and historical events for purposes of comparison only serve to give very basic equivalences--not exact equivalences of elements that are reserved to each event. This is the whole reason we use the Bible to express explicit doctrine, and do not use "hints" and "subjective revelations" in an attempt to "prove" theories.

We can use parables and symbols to say anything we want them to say if we do not have explicit factual statements in the Bible. Only when the Scriptures rise to the level of doctrine do we have a basis for true biblical doctrine. That is the point.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You miss the point. There being two separate stories with their own details and their own chronologies, comparing those elements confuse them if they are not part of what's being compared!

For example, in the parable of the 10 Virgins you have 10 Virgins, 5 being unprepared and 5 being prepared. You say that the 50% ratio is relevant in the comparison when we are not told that!

That is a detail relevant to the parable, and not to what it is being compared to with respect to Christ's Coming. The 50% number could simply reflect an equal choice in the matter of preparing for the Groom rather than an exact ratio and number of those preparing for Christ's Coming.

In the matter of the Flood you are asserting that the historical matter of "peace time" is relevant and being compared to a supposed "peace time" before Christ's Coming. We are not, however, told that.

Peace time may or may not have even existed in Noah's day, there being a much different population size in the civilization and less political groups to wage war. The presence of intense wickedness would *not* suggest, at any rate, "peace time!"

Obviously, conditions in Noah's day would be described differently than conditions in the endtimes. Political strife within a single civilization obviously has to be described differently than political strife throughout the endtimes world!

Comparing these matters is not given to be relevant to the comparison. It's *you* who try to make this relevant for the sake of your theory.

And that is the whole point. You are comparing conditions related to each historical event which are unimportant with respect to the compared elements. A parable is not going to be described in the same way as the thing it represents. The example of judgment in the Flood event is not going to be described in the same way as an endtime event it is being compared to.

Using parables and historical events for purposes of comparison only serve to give very basic equivalences--not exact equivalences of elements that are reserved to each event. This is the whole reason we use the Bible to express explicit doctrine, and do not use "hints" and "subjective revelations" in an attempt to "prove" theories.

We can use parables and symbols to say anything we want them to say if we do not have explicit factual statements in the Bible. Only when the Scriptures rise to the level of doctrine do we have a basis for true biblical doctrine. That is the point.

Acts 1, " like manner" we have peace time Commerce and normal life.
Mat 24, "before the flood" we have peace time Commerce and normal life
Luke 17 "lot remover before judgement." We have peace time Commerce and normal life.
Mat 24 (one taken/left) we have peace time Commerce and normal life.
Mat 25 (the 5 wise taken/ 5 foolish left) we have peace time Commerce and normal life.


All off the top of my head.
All gatherings that are pre-tribulation, are peacetime ,Commerce ,and normal life .

the Rapture of the church is the Gathering of the Bride.
there is no Gathering of the Bride after the tribulation.
We see the bride in heaven in Revelation 19 on white horses and it says the bride has become the wife, in heaven, and of course the marriage supper of the Lamb is completed.

Which is the prophecy by Jesus ,At The Last Supper, fulfilled in heaven, with the bride with the marriage supper, as vividly portrayed in Matthew 25.

the groom comes for the bride they go into the chamber and the door is shut.
I don't know how in the world you can shove a post-trib Rapture with billions of white horses blackening the sky, into the Gathering of the Bride
.....and that bride taken into the marriage chamber, Where Jesus prophesied At The Last Supper ,that the bride would be with the groom in heaven, and that he would not drink of the cup, until he did it again with his bride in heaven.

I have no idea how you shove a revelation 19 white horses deal into that. It doesn't fit and it can never fit.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You miss the point. There being two separate stories with their own details and their own chronologies, comparing those elements confuse them if they are not part of what's being compared!

For example, in the parable of the 10 Virgins you have 10 Virgins, 5 being unprepared and 5 being prepared. You say that the 50% ratio is relevant in the comparison when we are not told that!

That is a detail relevant to the parable, and not to what it is being compared to with respect to Christ's Coming. The 50% number could simply reflect an equal choice in the matter of preparing for the Groom rather than an exact ratio and number of those preparing for Christ's Coming.

In the matter of the Flood you are asserting that the historical matter of "peace time" is relevant and being compared to a supposed "peace time" before Christ's Coming. We are not, however, told that.

Peace time may or may not have even existed in Noah's day, there being a much different population size in the civilization and less political groups to wage war. The presence of intense wickedness would *not* suggest, at any rate, "peace time!"

Obviously, conditions in Noah's day would be described differently than conditions in the endtimes. Political strife within a single civilization obviously has to be described differently than political strife throughout the endtimes world!

Comparing these matters is not given to be relevant to the comparison. It's *you* who try to make this relevant for the sake of your theory.

And that is the whole point. You are comparing conditions related to each historical event which are unimportant with respect to the compared elements. A parable is not going to be described in the same way as the thing it represents. The example of judgment in the Flood event is not going to be described in the same way as an endtime event it is being compared to.

Using parables and historical events for purposes of comparison only serve to give very basic equivalences--not exact equivalences of elements that are reserved to each event. This is the whole reason we use the Bible to express explicit doctrine, and do not use "hints" and "subjective revelations" in an attempt to "prove" theories.

We can use parables and symbols to say anything we want them to say if we do not have explicit factual statements in the Bible. Only when the Scriptures rise to the level of doctrine do we have a basis for true biblical doctrine. That is the point.

QUOTE
"Peace time may or may not have even existed in Noah's day, there being a much different population size in the civilization and less political groups to wage war. "

So you can not discern that Commerce, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage is not describing a war zone????
It is VIVIDLY DEPICTING normal life.
It DESTROYS the notion of a postrib rapture war zone of a Destroyed earth, and rotting bodies ,and the AC decapitating billions of Christians.

My job is easy, watching folks go against the bible.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Acts 1, " like manner" we have peace time Commerce and normal life.
Mat 24, "before the flood" we have peace time Commerce and normal life
Luke 17 "lot remover before judgement." We have peace time Commerce and normal life.
Mat 24 (one taken/left) we have peace time Commerce and normal life.
Mat 25 (the 5 wise taken/ 5 foolish left) we have peace time Commerce and normal life.

And this is relevant why? Commerce goes on, or so-called "normal life," even in times of war, or in times leading up to war.

All off the top of my head.
All gatherings that are pre-tribulation, are peacetime ,Commerce ,and normal life .

None of those passages indicate "pre-tribulation."

 

[The Light]

Rev 14:14
Mat 24

It must be embarrassing for postribbers.

They definitely don't know what to with Rev 14:14.

And they are clueless about the Church going through the wrath of God. when we are not appointed to wrath. Why they can't figure out their position goes against scripture is beyond understanding. I can only go with their eyes are blinded.

 

[Randy Kluth]

QUOTE
"Peace time may or may not have even existed in Noah's day, there being a much different population size in the civilization and less political groups to wage war. "

So you can not discern that Commerce, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage is not describing a war zone????
It is VIVIDLY DEPICTING normal life.
It DESTROYS the notion of a postrib rapture war zone of a Destroyed earth, and rotting bodies ,and the AC decapitating billions of Christians.

My job is easy, watching folks go against the bible.

No, the Bible doesn't appear to say what you're wanting it to say. It is saying that people are not expecting sudden judgment, which will characterize the time of Christ's Return. War or peace, marriage or not, people will think life continues as normal.

The way Pretribs paint "the Tribulation era" is of Christians dying by the millions, asteroids falling from the sky, earthquakes, natural disasters, plagues, and warfare. But this is not the way the Revelation describes it.

It is more an indication of life as usual, with people cursing God for cursing their so-called "normal life." They continue to act as if things are normal--do you really think people will stop marrying during the Reign of Antichrist?

In reality, Antichrist is depicted not as ruling the whole world, but as having worshipers throughout the world. These things are very different. Antichrist probably rules a 10 nation confederation in Europe--not the whole world. Armageddon has to take place with a major part of the world--probably the East, rebelling against him. And this takes place at the end of the "Tribulation Period"--not before.

The major part of the war takes place at Armageddon and is over in an hour--likely an atomic holocaust. This is not the entire period of the Reign of Antichrist, but only at the end of it, after a mobilization to Armageddon. The bowl judgments, the trumpet judgments, the seal judgments all indicate God's coming judgment upon the world *after the reign of Antichrist," and in only preliminary form prior to that. The major judgment takes place *at* Christ's Coming!

There is no necessity that wars will rage across the earth during the reign of Antichrist. On the contrary, he rules over such a superpower that the rest of the world will fear to fight him. "Who can make war with him?" He will preside over seeming peaceful times under his authoritarian rule...but only for a time, it seems? It will not, of course, be "peaceful" for Christian martyrs in Europe. But for those who take his mark and name, things will appear to be peaceful...temporarily.

Your version of "the Bible" may not be "the Bible" after all?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They definitely don't know what to with Rev 14:14.

LOL. Why do you say that? What a ridiculous comment.

And they are clueless about the Church going through the wrath of God. when we are not appointed to wrath. Why they can't figure out their position goes against scripture is beyond understanding. I can only go with their eyes are blinded.

I do not believe the church will experience God's wrath and neither do other post-tribbers here. Do you think lying is the right way to go about supporting your view? You are a liar. Who do you think is going to take you seriously when you lie like this? No one will. When you have to resort to lies like this you are admitting that you are desperate and have no way of supporting your own view so you have to resort to slandering those who disagree with you with your lies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, the Bible doesn't appear to say what you're wanting it to say. It is saying that people are not expecting sudden judgment, which will characterize the time of Christ's Return. War or peace, marriage or not, people will think life continues as normal.

The way Pretribs paint "the Tribulation era" is of Christians dying by the millions, asteroids falling from the sky, earthquakes, natural disasters, plagues, and warfare. But this is not the way the Revelation describes it.

If their understanding of Revelation was correct then it would be true that things would not be going on as normal in the world before Christ returns. But, of course, their understanding of Revelation is not correct because it doesn't line up with the rest of scripture. If they would actually study other scripture besides Revelation that talks about the signs that would indicate that tribulation is occurring and that His return is near they would see that those passages (like 2 Thess 2:1-12, for example) focus on spiritual deception, apostasy and a major increase in wickedness as being signs of the near return of Jesus rather than physical catastrophes. Jesus said that physical catastrophes like wars, earthquakes, famines and such would NOT be a sign that the end was near (Matthew 24:6) but would only be the beginning of sorrows or birth pains. But pretribs either miss or ignore that.

Instead, it is the appearance of many false Christs, false prophets, many turning away from the faith and an increase in wickedness that are the signs of His near return. It is because of all of this deception going on that people are unaware of what's going on and just live their lives as normal without realizing that God is angry with them and about to take out His wrath on them.

That's just like what happened with the flood in Noah's day and the fire that came down on Sodom and Gomorrah in Lot's day. There was nothing highly unusual going on physically before the flood to indicate that complete physical destruction was coming. Instead, there was a lot of deception going on that kept people from having a relationship with God and kept them from realizing that God was angry with them. Likewise, there was nothing going on in Sodom or Gomorrah physically to indicate that God's wrath was about to come down on them. There was a high level of deception and wickedness going on before then which is why they were just doing their normal thing while being oblivious to what was about to happen to them. Jesus Himself said it will be just like that before He comes again (Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30).

That's what we see in prophecy throughout the NT, so why would Revelation be any different? Pretribs miss what Revelation is saying because they unwisely take most of the book literally despite the fact that the first verse in the book indicates that it was "signified". That means it was purposely written in such a way that only discerning believers could understand it. It was purposely not written in a literal, straightforward way or else even unbelievers could understand it. It is similar to Jesus's parables in that way. Taking the symbolism of Revelation literally leads to all kinds of ridiculous conclusions that contradict other scripture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If their understanding of Revelation was correct then it would be true that things would not be going on as normal in the world before Christ returns. But, of course, their understanding of Revelation is not correct because it doesn't line up with the rest of scripture. If they would actually study other scripture besides Revelation that talks about the signs that would indicate that tribulation is occurring and that His return is near they would see that those passages (like 2 Thess 2:1-12, for example) focus on spiritual deception, apostasy and a major increase in wickedness as being signs of the near return of Jesus rather than physical catastrophes. Jesus said that physical catastrophes like wars, earthquakes, famines and such would NOT be a sign that the end was near (Matthew 24:6) but would only be the beginning of sorrows or birth pains. But pretribs either miss or ignore that.

Instead, it is the appearance of many false Christs, false prophets, many turning away from the faith and an increase in wickedness that are the signs of His near return. It is because of all of this deception going on that people are unaware of what's going on and just live their lives as normal without realizing that God is angry with them and about to take out His wrath on them.

That's just like what happened with the flood in Noah's day and the fire that came down on Sodom and Gomorrah in Lot's day. There was nothing highly unusual going on physically before the flood to indicate that complete physical destruction was coming. Instead, there was a lot of deception going on that kept people from having a relationship with God and kept them from realizing that God was angry with them. Likewise, there was nothing going on in Sodom or Gomorrah physically to indicate that God's wrath was about to come down on them. There was a high level of deception and wickedness going on before then which is why they were just doing their normal thing while being oblivious to what was about to happen to them. Jesus Himself said it will be just like that before He comes again (Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30).

That's what we see in prophecy throughout the NT, so why would Revelation be any different? Pretribs miss what Revelation is saying because they unwisely take most of the book literally despite the fact that the first verse in the book indicates that it was "signified". That means it was purposely written in such a way that only discerning believers could understand it. It was purposely not written in a literal, straightforward way or else even unbelievers could understand it. It is similar to Jesus's parables in that way. Taking the symbolism of Revelation literally leads to all kinds of ridiculous conclusions that contradict other scripture.

Well put. So much of the conditions described in biblical prophecy and in the Revelation have already been applied in historical events, or are intended to be applied in matters of eternal judgment when faced with the unleashing of God's wrath at the end. Throughout the OT Scriptures the Prophets have had to go through difficult times of persecution or have had to endure trouble while living in their rebellious backsliding nation, as it has come under divine judgment.

To suddenly change the endtimes into a post-Rapture world where everything is "post-apocalyptic" is pure science fiction. God will never be without a witness on earth. And the very idea that Christians are being commended by God as enduring against the last antichrists of the age indicate there is no sense that Christians are spared difficulties in the last times.

Finally, using parables to prove that the endtimes are equivalent to the details of the parable is an abuse of biblical teaching. A parable was meant to be an example of moral teaching--not cryptic descriptions of an endtimes choreography. Why not let the Scripture teach, and not try to insert teaching into parables where supposed itineraries are not being taught?

 

[Randy Kluth]

What is transparently clear in all of this Pretrib nonsense is that actual biblical teaching is not being used to prove any Pretrib teaching. Only parables are being manipulated to teach things they are not teaching.

So the basis of Pretrib belief is purely subjective and in the control of those who wish to read into parables what they want to believe. Such faith is not based on what the Holy Spirit is saying, but rather on what the interpreter is saying.

If Noah is led into the ark and the door is shut, and that story is being compared to Christ's Coming when nothing about a supposed "Tribulation" is even being said, then we're in the "interpretation" mode, and teaching that parables mean things that they are not even saying.

When a parable that relates to Christ's Coming has 5 virgins enter into the Groom's party and the door is shut, when no Tribulation is even mentioned, Pretribbers find a subjective means to insert a Tribulation into the story. No Tribulation period is even mentioned in Noah's history.

Pretribbers draw all of the parables they can muster and select whatever details seem to fit their desired scenario, instead of just letting the parable make its own points. This isn't biblical exegesis.

Let's just listen to what the Holy Spirit says through explicit teaching. I cannot say that enough. Using parables to teach things they are not saying should be a clue that Pretribbers are speaking for the Holy Spirit, and not letting Him speak for Himself.

 

[Randy Kluth]

QUOTE
"Peace time may or may not have even existed in Noah's day, there being a much different population size in the civilization and less political groups to wage war. "

So you can not discern that Commerce, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage is not describing a war zone????

Do you discern a "war zone" here?...

Rev 13.4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

This is not a "war zone" when nations are afraid to stand up to the Antichristian Empire. However, there have been wars in various spots all through history. None of that indicates that the presence of wars in the time of Antichrist means that the Church has left the planet.

My job is easy, watching folks go against the bible.

You're cocky about your beliefs, but they are based on your own teaching--not on the Bible. Get your teaching from what the Bible *teaches,* and don't try to fit into parables what you want them to say.

2 Thes 2 teaches that Christ *cannot* come for his Church until he comes to destroy the Antichrist with the breath of his mouth. That means he must be "revealed" 1st, such that we need to discern his lies in order to avoid them. That is how we properly prepare for Christ's Coming, by rejecting satanic lies and by embracing Christ as our Lord in all difficulties and in all times of prosperity.

The "secret Rapture" is called "secret" purely because it cannot be found by any but those who wish to read it into parables that do not actually teach it. That is just setting yourself up for a lie, to believe what you want to believe.

You're safe when you follow explicit biblical teaching such as you will find in 2 Thes 2.. Christ will not come for the Church until Antichrist is revealed 1st, who will be destroyed at the actual Coming of Christ.

Christ cannot come before then. That is the actual explicit teaching of Scripture--something Pretribbers wish to gloss over or ignore or re-interpret with their "secret" teaching.

I don't know why the Lord has allowed this Pretrib, Imminency teaching to take hold in such a large portion of the Church? However, it has happened in the past, and undoubtedly is God's way of letting people go their own way.

But I do pray that God puts a curse upon this false teaching so that those who truly wish to follow God's word will be unobstructed in their pursuit of a holy life--one that is truly prepared to prevail in faith in all situations. Soon, if Postrib is truly God's word, it will become clear that this false Pretrib/Imminency teaching is a nuisance teaching--one that "adds" to the word of God things it is not saying.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If their understanding of Revelation was correct then it would be true that things would not be going on as normal in the world before Christ returns.

As they say in chess, *checkmate!* ;) They think the grand surprise that takes the world unprepared is the "Tribulation Era," which really is a day for the world to celebrate the triumph of Antichristianity. So the world today is supposedly "at peace and rest" so that the "Time of Tribulation" will spring on them suddenly??? Actually, that will be the day they declare victory over Christianity. Neither is the world even today without war, at peace, and at rest! Are we really to expect peace in the years immediately ahead? I don't think so!

What will, however, surprise the unsuspecting world is the Return of Christ in judgment. Those things will happen simultaneously, I believe--Christ's Return and world conflagration. Christ will return in the midst of possibly a world war that goes nuclear and is over in a single hour. At least that is how it looks to me presently. The world does anticipate WW3 and nuclear war, but it sees no connection between those things and current human behavior. The world thinks these things can be avoided without spiritual repentance.

But there is no peace in the world presently, and I don't think there will ever be true peace in the world until Christ returns. There are passages about "peace and safety" in the world relative to those who own business and personal interests, but this does not necessarily mean the world will be absent of wars. It just means that people are indifferent with respect to their spiritual and moral needs until Christ comes and it is too late.

But, of course, their understanding of Revelation is not correct because it doesn't line up with the rest of scripture. If they would actually study other scripture besides Revelation that talks about the signs that would indicate that tribulation is occurring and that His return is near they would see that those passages (like 2 Thess 2:1-12, for example) focus on spiritual deception, apostasy and a major increase in wickedness as being signs of the near return of Jesus rather than physical catastrophes. Jesus said that physical catastrophes like wars, earthquakes, famines and such would NOT be a sign that the end was near (Matthew 24:6) but would only be the beginning of sorrows or birth pains. But pretribs either miss or ignore that.

True.

Instead, it is the appearance of many false Christs, false prophets, many turning away from the faith and an increase in wickedness that are the signs of His near return. It is because of all of this deception going on that people are unaware of what's going on and just live their lives as normal without realizing that God is angry with them and about to take out His wrath on them.

Yes.

That's just like what happened with the flood in Noah's day and the fire that came down on Sodom and Gomorrah in Lot's day. There was nothing highly unusual going on physically before the flood to indicate that complete physical destruction was coming. Instead, there was a lot of deception going on that kept people from having a relationship with God and kept them from realizing that God was angry with them. Likewise, there was nothing going on in Sodom or Gomorrah physically to indicate that God's wrath was about to come down on them. There was a high level of deception and wickedness going on before then which is why they were just doing their normal thing while being oblivious to what was about to happen to them. Jesus Himself said it will be just like that before He comes again (Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30).

Yes.

That's what we see in prophecy throughout the NT, so why would Revelation be any different? Pretribs miss what Revelation is saying because they unwisely take most of the book literally despite the fact that the first verse in the book indicates that it was "signified". That means it was purposely written in such a way that only discerning believers could understand it. It was purposely not written in a literal, straightforward way or else even unbelievers could understand it. It is similar to Jesus's parables in that way. Taking the symbolism of Revelation literally leads to all kinds of ridiculous conclusions that contradict other scripture.

I agree. Symbolic language is used to speak to those who would otherwise wish to distort Christian teaching. It is not designed to give road signs to govern which direction to take to avoid judgment. The only sign we're given to escape judgment is the sign that leads us to follow Christ.

But any thought of escaping the trials that test our faith in unthinkable. We've already experienced these trials in our life. The last days are what we're already facing--the deception will simply intensify and overtake more of the world.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is transparently clear in all of this Pretrib nonsense is that actual biblical teaching is not being used to prove any Pretrib teaching. Only parables are being manipulated to teach things they are not teaching.

So the basis of Pretrib belief is purely subjective and in the control of those who wish to read into parables what they want to believe. Such faith is not based on what the Holy Spirit is saying, but rather on what the interpreter is saying.

If Noah is led into the ark and the door is shut, and that story is being compared to Christ's Coming when nothing about a supposed "Tribulation" is even being said, then we're in the "interpretation" mode, and teaching that parables mean things that they are not even saying.

When a parable that relates to Christ's Coming has 5 virgins enter into the Groom's party and the door is shut, when no Tribulation is even mentioned, Pretribbers find a subjective means to insert a Tribulation into the story. No Tribulation period is even mentioned in Noah's history.

Pretribbers draw all of the parables they can muster and select whatever details seem to fit their desired scenario, instead of just letting the parable make its own points. This isn't biblical exegesis.

Let's just listen to what the Holy Spirit says through explicit teaching. I cannot say that enough. Using parables to teach things they are not saying should be a clue that Pretribbers are speaking for the Holy Spirit, and not letting Him speak for Himself.

Exactly! The entire foundation of their doctrine is built upon adding things to parables that are not mentioned in the parables and have nothing to do with what is being taught in the parables. And it is also built on wild speculations made in relation to what is undeniably one of the most difficult books in the entire Bible to interpret (Revelation). That's it! They have no clear, straightforward scripture that their doctrine is built upon. So, their doctrine has a very shaky foundation and post-trib people like us are able to rather easily destroy it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As they say in chess, *checkmate!* ;) They think the grand surprise that takes the world unprepared is the "Tribulation Era," which really is a day for the world to celebrate the triumph of Antichristianity. So the world today is supposedly "at peace and rest" so that the "Time of Tribulation" will spring on them suddenly??? Actually, that will be the day they declare victory over Christianity. Neither is the world even today without war, at peace, and at rest! Are we really to expect peace in the years immediately ahead? I don't think so!

What will, however, surprise the unsuspecting world is the Return of Christ in judgment. Those things will happen simultaneously, I believe--Christ's Return and world conflagration. Christ will return in the midst of possibly a world war that goes nuclear and is over in a single hour. At least that is how it looks to me presently. The world does anticipate WW3 and nuclear war, but it sees no connection between those things and current human behavior. The world thinks these things can be avoided without spiritual repentance.

But there is no peace in the world presently, and I don't think there will ever be true peace in the world until Christ returns. There are passages about "peace and safety" in the world relative to those who own business and personal interests, but this does not necessarily mean the world will be absent of wars. It just means that people are indifferent with respect to their spiritual and moral needs until Christ comes and it is too late.

True.

Yes.

Yes.

I agree. Symbolic language is used to speak to those who would otherwise wish to distort Christian teaching. It is not designed to give road signs to govern which direction to take to avoid judgment. The only sign we're given to escape judgment is the sign that leads us to follow Christ.

But any thought of escaping the trials that test our faith in unthinkable. We've already experienced these trials in our life. The last days are what we're already facing--the deception will simply intensify and overtake more of the world.

Agree. I'm concerned about the mindset that the false pretrib doctrine can promote and that is why I passionately argue against it. It can lead people to be afraid of persecution and tribulation. But, if they are living godly lives then they should expect persecution and tribulation in their lives regardless of whether they are alive during a time of tribulation before Christ's return or not.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

If someone is never experiencing any persecution then that would suggest that they are not living "godly in Christ Jesus". It would suggest that they are not ever being bold in their faith. Being bold with others about our faith will often lead to persecution of one kind or another. It won't always be physical persecution, but sometimes will be in the form of insults being hurled at us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you discern a "war zone" here?...

Rev 13.4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

This is not a "war zone" when nations are afraid to stand up to the Antichristian Empire. However, there have been wars in various spots all through history. None of that indicates that the presence of wars in the time of Antichrist means that the Church has left the planet.

Right. And this just reminded me of a question that I have sometimes asked pretribs, which is where is the scripture that describes all of the extreme chaos and destruction that would result from millions of people disappearing throughout the world? There is no such description, of course. But, why wouldn't there be? Why would there be no description of the after effects of millions of people in the world disappearing which would involve many car crashes, some plane crashes, boat crashes, and so on and would result in utter confusion, grief (from loved ones disappearing), chaos and destruction? That seems too significant of an event to leave out of scripture. Unless it's all fiction (which it is).

And how would it be possible for world peace to come about a mere seven years later after an extreme event of global chaos and destruction such as that? That's not even reasonable. It would take much longer than that for people to feel like the world was at peace again.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Right. And this just reminded me of a question that I have sometimes asked pretribs, which is where is the scripture that describes all of the extreme chaos and destruction that would result from millions of people disappearing throughout the world? There is no such description, of course. But, why wouldn't there be? Why would there be no description of the after effects of millions of people in the world disappearing which would involve many car crashes, some plane crashes, boat crashes, and so on and would result in utter confusion, grief (from loved ones disappearing), chaos and destruction? That seems too significant of an event to leave out of scripture. Unless it's all fiction (which it is).

And how would it be possible for world peace to come about a mere seven years later after an extreme event of global chaos and destruction such as that? That's not even reasonable. It would take much longer than that for people to feel like the world was at peace again.

Well, I get confused about *when* the Pretribs think this "peace" will be? In one case they may say it takes place in the "Tribulation" so that when Christ's 2nd Coming takes place they are surprised by Armageddon. In another place they may say the "Tribulation" is the day world peace is upset by the onset of tribulation. There are so many inconsistencies that I can't even address the issues!

But yes, world peace doesn't just suddenly come and go. When peace comes, it doesn't just suddenly return back to war or it would never have been viewed as "peace."

The notion that the disappearance of millions of Christians would just simply be dismissed by the world and the media, and be quickly ignored is ludicrous. The upset in society by Christian drivers and operators would be enormous. It is undoubtedly pure fiction. I don't know why more Pretribs do not express this embarrassment over proposing something so utterly ridiculous?

And there are other obviously silly situations with Pretrib scenarios. One version has all real Christians disappearing only to have a small army of Christians suddenly rise up by their own bootstraps, learning how to become a Christian, maturing, and then becoming strong enough to become martyrs in the space of just 7 years!

Well, I think the whole problem is that the "Tribulation" is falsely depicted as "God's Wrath" upon the planet, as if it takes God 7 years to punish a wayward planet! Frankly, I think calling it "the Tribulation" or "God's Wrath" is a misnomer.

As I've said many times, the term "Great Tribulation" has been lifted from Jesus' association with His wrath against NT Judaism and falsely applied to the Reign of Antichrist. The "Wrath of God" against the Antichrist obviously takes place largely at the end of his Reign, or he would be unable to reign at all!

I know there are other issues we are disagreed on in matters of biblical prophecy. But I do thank you for your position against Pretribism, which has taken over the "prophecy" section of Christian bookstores, and has created an unrealistic scenario, causing unbelievers to dismiss Christianity as "blind, muddled, and contradictory," or simply gullible.

I know there are some issues in prophecy that we all have to resolve. But this issue is dealt with quite directly in the Scriptures. One has to ignore what the Bible teaches to promote a Pretrib teaching. The fact the belief system was created after 1830 only gives evidence that this belief was concocted by Man, and not the product of apostolic teaching.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Do you discern a "war zone" here?...

Rev 13.4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

This is not a "war zone" when nations are afraid to stand up to the Antichristian Empire. However, there have been wars in various spots all through history. None of that indicates that the presence of wars in the time of Antichrist means that the Church has left the planet.

You're cocky about your beliefs, but they are based on your own teaching--not on the Bible. Get your teaching from what the Bible *teaches,* and don't try to fit into parables what you want them to say.

2 Thes 2 teaches that Christ *cannot* come for his Church until he comes to destroy the Antichrist with the breath of his mouth. That means he must be "revealed" 1st, such that we need to discern his lies in order to avoid them. That is how we properly prepare for Christ's Coming, by rejecting satanic lies and by embracing Christ as our Lord in all difficulties and in all times of prosperity.

The "secret Rapture" is called "secret" purely because it cannot be found by any but those who wish to read it into parables that do not actually teach it. That is just setting yourself up for a lie, to believe what you want to believe.

You're safe when you follow explicit biblical teaching such as you will find in 2 Thes 2.. Christ will not come for the Church until Antichrist is revealed 1st, who will be destroyed at the actual Coming of Christ.

Christ cannot come before then. That is the actual explicit teaching of Scripture--something Pretribbers wish to gloss over or ignore or re-interpret with their "secret" teaching.

I don't know why the Lord has allowed this Pretrib, Imminency teaching to take hold in such a large portion of the Church? However, it has happened in the past, and undoubtedly is God's way of letting people go their own way.

But I do pray that God puts a curse upon this false teaching so that those who truly wish to follow God's word will be unobstructed in their pursuit of a holy life--one that is truly prepared to prevail in faith in all situations. Soon, if Postrib is truly God's word, it will become clear that this false Pretrib/Imminency teaching is a nuisance teaching--one that "adds" to the word of God things it is not saying.

QUOTE
"You're safe when you follow explicit biblical teaching such as you will find in 2 Thes 2.. Christ will not come for the Church until Antichrist is revealed 1st, who will be destroyed at the actual Coming of Christ.

Christ cannot come before then. That is the actual explicit teaching of Scripture--something Pretribbers wish to gloss over or ignore or re-interpret with their "secret" teaching."

I already showed you that when reading that, we do in fact see " revealed".
Now you add to it.( out of your mind..anything other than "revealed"is not there )
So you can misrepresent me 24/7. It is your choice to do so.
SMH....I am losing respect for you.

Now, concerning the postrib doctrine of claiming a secret rapture.
It is YOUR DOCTRINE

IT IS YOUR claim that somebody believes in a secret rapture.
I can not see, in the broadest stretch, anyway millions of Graves opening up and the dead raised to life as " secret"
That false baloney belongs to you.

But anyway, just keep on batting the air.
Keep up the misrepresentation.
You used to add some sybolence of intelligence to the discussion. Now you quote postribber talking points and misrepresent.