The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[MA2444]

Yes, scripture talks about those things and those things are true, but I don't see any indication that Gentiles are in view in Daniel 9:24. But, certainly, Gentile believers have been included in the blessings promised to the people of Israel. Like making reconciliation (atonement) for iniquity, for example. Jesus certainly didn't only do that for the Jews, but for the Gentiles as well. That Gentile believers would be fellowheirs with Israelite believers was a mystery in Old Testament times (Ephesians 3:1-6).

You don't see the gentiles in view in this? Hmm.
Ok, the messenger Angel that comes to Daniel shows up to Daniel in Daniel 9? That's right. The Angel is with Daniel for the next for chapters (at least). So let's skip over (or read through) up to
Daniel 12:4
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased..../KJv

This is a prophecy for the end times. Write this stuff in a book and now, seal it up until the time of the end? What for? Oh it is a prophecy for the end times. So that makes me see the gentiles in it. Make sense? I think so.

Like making reconciliation (atonement) for iniquity, for example. Jesus certainly didn't only do that for the Jews, but for the Gentiles as well. That Gentile believers would be fellowheirs with Israelite believers was a mystery in Old Testament times (Ephesians 3:1-6).

Good point. The Tribulation period is mostly all about Israel. They must come to a saving knowledge of Salvation through Jesus the Messiah as a nation. But as far as as the gentiles go, the Tribulation will affect the entire world.

This is where we need to use scripture to interpret scripture. Scripture differentiates between "the last time" or "the last days" and "the latter days" that come towards the end of the "the last time" or "last days". Scripture indicates that the end times began long ago already:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Jesus has been saying, soon, for a long time, huh?! He even remarked to the disciples that we are in the last days. But coming from an Eternal being....it makes sense from His perspective! 6000 years, one week to Jesus? Yep, it's almost over and then we will be be with Jesus, and be eternal beings also.
They say the hardest part of being an eternal being is the first hundred years!

As for knowledge increasing, remember that we're talking about Bible prophecy here. It's not talking about knowledge in general, it's talking about godly knowledge and wisdom increasing. Which is exactly what happened after the Holy Spirit came to dwell within Christians and what happened with the writing of the New Testament. People's understanding of scripture and of God's plans increased greatly after that.

It certainly is talking about Godly knowledge and wisdom. Good point. The OT may only allude to the pretrib rapture, but it wa sMystery then.
And now it is Behold I show you a Mystery time!

 

[MA2444]

Did you miss where I asked you to please be serious? Where is the insult? Is that a serious question? You don't think asking someone in this Bible Prophecy forum "Do you know what Prophecy is?" is insulting? You don't think that asking a Christian "Ever heard of the God which tells the end from the beginning" is insulting when everyone hear not only has heard of that God but believes in Him? You don't think that asking another Christian who gives his understanding of Bible prophecy "Do you believe in Prophecy" is insulting? Who are you trying to kid here?

I was being entirely serious and it was an honest question. If WPM believes in prophecy? People believe many things nowadays and I didnt know so I asked. I think I have him figured out to be an Amillenialist, which believes everything is allegory. But I am not positive so I asked the man.
I think that if you found that question insulting, then I'd guess that you are a beiever in prophecy and that question out to you may be insulting. But it wasnt meant so. I just didnt know.

I'm okay with humor, but not condescending humor like asking if someone here knows what prophecy is or believes in prophecy. Everyone here obviously knows what prophecy is and believes in it. No need for ridiculous questions like that. They are not funny and only reveal your high level of immaturity.

That's not a funny question though. If you can't see that hen I suggest that you are looking too hard for insults.

 

[MA2444]

So, are you saying that you think the key to understanding these things that we're talking about in this thread are having a high level of things like "comprehension" and "critical thinking"? Do you think Paul would agree with that?

No man. I wa saying that I've always had good comprehension and reading skills, and the things he was saying was either idiotic or so far above my understanding that he lost me. But I aint stupid, and if he is that much more intelligent than I am in being able to open up the scriptures, then he wouldnt be whining about oh you offended me.

To me, it sounds like he has never opened the OT. And instead of explaining why I am suppoosedly wrong, he wont. Gets insulting sorta and goes off on a tangent and asks silly questions of me. Like perhaps he doesnt understand what I am talking about?

Can we get back to the topic now? Please?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I assert that there no prophetical signs that must be fulfilled before the rapture of the church. It could happen at any moment.
Conversely, there are definite prophetical signs which must take place before the 2nd coming of Jesus to put an end to wickedness and evil. Once the 7 year peace covenant is signed by israel, that begins the tribulation period. Then 1260days later the antichrist committs the abomination of desolation and that begins the Great tribulation which lasts 1260 days. We (or they on the earth!) will know exactly what day that Jesus will come.

Matthew 24:44 tells us to be ready.

Matthew 24:40-44
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh..../KJV

Now I believe that this is clearly talking about the rapture. Do we agree on that?

I know you were talking to him, but I'd like to respond to your post as well. I agree on that.

I like the way that Matthew 24 translates verse 44 in the NLT version

Matthew 24:44
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.../NLT

Matthew 24:36
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only....KJV

So nothing has to happen first it will be very unexpected for all.

Please read all of Matthew 24 before drawing conclusions from only those two verses. Your conclusions here contradict other things that Jesus said in Matthew 24. Not knowing the day or hour of His coming does not equate to nothing having to happen first. Jesus talked about a lot of things that would happen first before the coming of the Son of Man, which is what Matthew 24:36 and Matthew 24:44 are about (His second coming).

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Jesus indicated that a time would come when many would turn away from the faith and many false prophets and false Christs would appear and deceive many people. This correlates with an increase of wickedness. You can't say that the coming of the Son of Man could occur before these things Jesus talked about occurred first. Paul also talked about these kinds of things happening before His coming and our being gathered to Him in 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Even seeing these things like an increase in wickedness and many falling away from the faith does not tell us the day or hour He will come, so you can't conclude that nothing has to happen first before He comes just because we don't know the day or the hour. The only time when it would be truly imminent is if these things He talked about have already happened or started to happen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 16:15
15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”.../NLT

So why would Jesus come so unexpectedly and snatch a bunch of His people off of the earth? Paul talks about that in:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,..KJV

Now that says we are not appointed to Wrath. It doesnt say that we wont have tribuations in life, but that we are not appointed the Wrath of God (Great Tribuation Wrath).

If the church gets raptured post trib, then what wrath were they not appointed to?! No make sense.

Yes, it's true that we will be raptured before the wrath that Paul mentions in that verse. But, what is the context of that wrath referenced in 1 Thessalonians 5:9? Did you try to find that? It can be found with what he wrote just a bit earlier.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Okay, here it is. The context of the wrath of which we are not appointed is the wrath that will come down when Jesus comes as a thief in the night. Paul describes that wrath as "sudden destruction", obviously upon unbelievers, from which "they shall not escape".

Why does he say that they will not escape it? Notice that he refers to that day as "the day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night. Peter wrote about this event as well.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Can you see here that the wrath of which we are not appointed is something that will come down upon the entire earth? That's why Paul said "they shall not escape". We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at that point rather than staying on the earth while fire comes down upon it.

And we are told to be always ready and watching for He will come suddenly and unexpected. He could come at any moment, thus, Imminent.

His coming suddenly and unexpectedly like a thief in the night is said in relation to unbelievers. It will catch them completely off guard because they don't even believe it will happen. While we believers may not know the day or hour it will happen we may know when it's near based on things happening that Jesus said would happen beforehand and it will not catch us completely off guard because we are expecting Him to come even though we don't know the exact day or hour.

He comes in the air for His Bride, the church and when we return with Jesus He comes to the earth to the Mt of Olives.

I see pre-tribs sometimes trying to claim that Jesus comes for His bride in one event before the tribulation and then with His bride after the tribulation. But, scripture says He will come both with and for His bride at the same time.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This scripture indicates that Jesus will both come with and for the dead in Christ (and for those who are alive and remain as well) at the same time. How? He will come with the souls of the dead in Christ and come for their bodies that He will raise from the dead. Their souls will unite with their changed bodies and together with those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

This lines up with what we see here:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Again, like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, we see a gathering of believers from both heaven and earth. The ones from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ while those from earth are the bodies of the dead in Christ along with those who are alive and remain.

So, it's one event and not two events with one before the tribulation and one after.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was being entirely serious and it was an honest question. If WPM believes in prophecy?

Why in the world would you ask a fellow Christian a question like that? Come on, dude.

 

[MA2444]

Do you equate being a Christian with being a tough guy or a non-ninny? Give me a break already! Unbelievable! We should talk with respect to each other. Don't ask ridiculous questions like if someone believes in prophecy and all that nonsense. How can you think someone wouldn't be offended by that? Ridiculous! Just stick to discussing the scriptures and leave personal insults out of it. Is that too much to ask?

I dont think so. Remember that big list of questions that WPM posted to me? I answered every one of them. Did we talk about it/. Did he respond to the words I wrote or to the emotions of the moment?

Nobody is attacking him or you. Everything will be ok. This is just men talking and if I seem to sound too gruff for you, I dunno, dont talk to me or something?

Everything isnt an attack. If he was a girl (or you) then I would speak differently and not the same way as I speak to men. Trying to have an adult conversation with a man who always plays a victim card, oh you offended me...what is that? It's like talking to a girl.

Excuuuse me if I grew up on the other side of the tracks from you two. Geez-oww. I do a pretty good job of not letting the dead ld man come out again, but that's just werid brother. I never had had a man say to me oh you offended me. Somebody been hanging out with the girls too much perhaps.

Can we stick with the topic? Is that ok? (sorry if that offends you, but let's not talk victims anymore, man.) We're just talking. Doesn't anything slide off of you? Please lets get to the topic. I have more scriptures to post! I can show that Jesus comes 1260 days (X2) after the peace treaty is signed.

I believe I have shown that the Rapture is imminent and before the day of wrath of the tribulation because we are not appointed to wrath. Did you miss that post of mine?

 

[Timtofly]

You think the general resurrection of the Church happened at the Cross??

The church up until that point. Those not born yet, were not resurrected.

There is no resurrection, period, on the last day of creation. After heaven and earth are returned to God, only 4 things are left. The LOF, the sea, Death, and sheol. Then the sea is no more, and Death and sheol themselves are cast into the LOF. This happens after creation ends:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

When Jesus hands back creation, the only thing left of creation is the Great White Throne, that God may be all in all.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not likely at all. These elders have crowns.

Yes, as I said, these angels could be substituting for the saints until the Coming of Christ. They may represent the work that God will do to obtain the reward of the righteous.

I see the 24 elders are angels because...
1) the scene is filled with angels, and not men.
2) 24 elders is insufficient to represent the Rapture of the Church.
3) the scene is designed to show the Levitical priesthood in a heavenly, angelic form, the priesthood under the Law no longer functioning, and the Levitical Priesthood having ceased to exist.

1 Chron 24 relays there were 24 divisions of priests in the time of King David. So the 24 elders appear to represent a kind of heavenly temple structure, which will not exist for men until we are glorified.

Christ is already crowned, but Christians are not yet crowned.

James 1.12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

"Elders" refers to aged, which is never ascribed to angels. So yes, these are men.

Angels assume human characteristics at times. We have to assume that they appear as having obtained a certain age whenever they appear as such. They wouldn't, for example, appear as children.

But only angels would have crowns now. The only man who has a crown now is Jesus, that I know of. This vision shows elders who already have crowns *now,* and not in the future, when the Church is Raptured.

So it don't appear to be men at all. They would likely be angels, though we are not told this. It's a good question.

 

[Timtofly]

The Restrainer was, I believe, the Roman Empire, along with its 10 heirs, which are 10 as-yet-unknown European states. At some point the Antichrist--not Satan, will be revealed. Apparently you have a different opinion, and that's your prerogative.

Obviously the Holy Spirit working through the church. The church was at work holding back Satan, not pagans. That is similar to the Pharisees saying Satan was casting out Satan. You have pagans following Satan, holding back Satan.

The ten toes kingdom ended at the Reformation. The 6th kingdom has been mortally wounded for near 500 years. 5 have fallen, one is. At the Second Coming the 6th kingdom will still be, and that is when Satan heals the 6th kingdom, after the church has been removed.

 

[MA2444]

I know you were talking to him, but I'd like to respond to your post as well. I agree on that.

That's fine. So if you believe that the rapturecan happen at any time and nothing has to happen first so it can happen...then how can the rapture happen at the same time as the 2nd coming? We know exactly when Jesus comes and there are several prophecies which must take place beofre he comes.

Like Israel crying out to their Messiah as a Nation!

Please read all of Matthew 24 before drawing conclusions from only those two verses. Your conclusions here contradict other things that Jesus said in Matthew 24. Not knowing the day or hour of His coming does not equate to nothing having to happen first. Jesus talked about a lot of things that would happen first before the coming of the Son of Man, which is what Matthew 24:36 and Matthew 24:44 are about (His second coming).

That's very astute of you to be able to see the contradiction in Matthew 24. It certainly is a contradiction.! The truth is always wound up in the details and the difficulty arises when Greek isnt is our native language and we dont know very much about the customs of the culture. And the fact is, While Jesus is giving those four disciples a private briefing just betweem Him and them, they had asked Jesus a few questions, and Jesus answers them all. But if you're not carfeul, you wont pick up on when Jesus changes the subject as He was talking to them. Jesus talks about the tribulation and He also talks about the rapture.

But the disciples knew the langage and customs of the speech and all that so they knew exactly that a change of subject occured. If we don't catch it, it is easy to think that Jesus talks about the same event. But he changed the subject so in reality there really isnt a contradiction.

I can hear it now! Where does Jesus change subjects exactly?
I don't remember off the yop of my head. I'll have to look at my notes to find exactly where. It is in there because I heard a very good teaching on that from a Pastor who does know the language, he went to Seminary or whatever they call it. And I stuck right with him in my bible and read it as he went along and I understood it. And it made all sorts of sense. I'll look for it.

Please read all of Matthew 24 before drawing conclusions from only those two verses. Your conclusions here contradict other things that Jesus said in Matthew 24. Not knowing the day or hour of His coming does not equate to nothing having to happen first. Jesus talked about a lot of things that would happen first before the coming of the Son of Man, which is what Matthew 24:36 and Matthew 24:44 are about (His second coming).

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Jesus indicated that a time would come when many would turn away from the faith and many false prophets and false Christs would appear and deceive many people. This correlates with an increase of wickedness. You can't say that the coming of the Son of Man could occur before these things Jesus talked about occurred first. Paul also talked about these kinds of things happening before His coming and our being gathered to Him in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Ok, I just now read all of Matthew 24 (in the NLT!) Do me a favor, go read it in the NLT version. BibleGateway has a free online NLT version (or any version I think). It seems clear that Jesus is talking about the time of Tribulation in the beginning of the chapter, then...(dont quote me on this yet, I havent checked my notes yet!), but in reading it it seems like around veses 36 that he starts talking about the Rapture.
And in the time of noah, God brought Judgment to the earth and destroyed itand Raptured 8 people to safety to rise above the death waters and live, to return to the earth later...That's just how the Rapture is going to be. First the Rapture, then Judgment on earth and Great Tribulation. The wrath of God.

"Jesus indicated that a time would come when many would turn away from the faith and many false prophets and false Christs would appear and deceive many people. This correlates with an increase of wickedness. You can't say that the coming of the Son of Man could occur before these things Jesus talked about occurred first. Paul also talked about these kinds of things happening before His coming and our being gathered to Him in 2 Thessalonians 2."

Yeah and it sure seems like it already starting that stuff. And, are we still in peace time? Does this give us a clue as to how bad it will really be during the Tribulation? Scripture talks about mens hearts failing them for fear. It is going to be bad bad. Such as the world has never seen before nor will ever see again. Maybe these are the good ol' days right now and we just don't know it yet?

 

[MA2444]

Yes, it's true that we will be raptured before the wrath that Paul mentions in that verse. But, what is the context of that wrath referenced in 1 Thessalonians 5:9? Did you try to find that? It can be found with what he wrote just a bit earlier.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Okay, here it is. The context of the wrath of which we are not appointed is the wrath that will come down when Jesus comes as a thief in the night. Paul describes that wrath as "sudden destruction", obviously upon unbelievers, from which "they shall not escape".

Why does he say that they will not escape it? Notice that he refers to that day as "the day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night. Peter wrote about this event as well.

But they wont be saying peace and safety during the tribulation, so this must mean before the tribulation.. It sounds to me like sudden destruction is going to come upon them very very soon after the Rapture. Or to put it another way, the Lord gets His people out just in time. The Rapture does not start the tribulation, the Trib is triggered by the signing of the peace treaty. Who knows if they sign the peace treaty one day after the rapture? Two days? Two weeks? But as it was in Noah's day so shall God get His people to safety before the rain...? That works I think.

They wil not escape the tribulation. It will be worldwide destruction. With much wailing and gnashing of teeth. WW II took 1 out of every 3 Jews off the plamet. The Tribulation will take 2 out of 3 Jews from the earth. Only a small remnant are protected at that time and many will be martyred.

But the wrath to come is the wrath of God and God is not angry at His Bride so she wont go through the wrath of God. She is set apart! He makes a special trip just for her! I have noticed in scripture that they are vague about the term day of the Lord in different places and I dont have figured out yet but I do know that the Bride is not appointed to wrath. And that's the trib.

 

[MA2444]

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Yes this is ome of them that is confusing. When does this happen? It says in a different place after all is said and done that the old earth passes away, and I saw new heaven and a new earth, and the New Jerusalem coming down....It can't be both, right?

Can you see here that the wrath of which we are not appointed is something that will come down upon the entire earth? That's why Paul said "they shall not escape". We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at that point rather than staying on the earth while fire comes down upon it.

I see that. In fact I think I said it. And we will be at that point, or before, caught up in the air to meet the Lord. And while the earth burns, we'll be at the biggest bestest BBQ that this Universe has ever seen before! The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Right?

I see pre-tribs sometimes trying to claim that Jesus comes for His bride in one event before the tribulation and then with His bride after the tribulation. But, scripture says He will come both with and for His bride at the same time.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This scripture indicates that Jesus will both come with and for the dead in Christ (and for those who are alive and remain as well) at the same time. How? He will come with the souls of the dead in Christ and come for their bodies that He will raise from the dead. Their souls will unite with their changed bodies and together with those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

So if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, then the rules changed at that point and the new rule was, absent from the body, present with the Lord, so empty out Abrahams Bosom and take those people to be with the Lord. So Jesus will bring those people with Him...and He is coming for His Bride! I can see that.
I wonder what He shouts? "Wake Up!!" and those passed on, their bodies will hear Him and rise up to be trandformed in the twinkling of an eye and receive their resurrection body. ANd! When we return to the earth with Jesus when He goes to My of Olives and sets up His milenial kingdom, we wil be with Him and livimg on earth those 1000 years as spiritual beings i the service of the Lord. There will also be regular humans on earth during the millenium. And they will have to choose to serve the Lord. (And no abortions for 1000 years! ol, humans breed like rabbits. 1000 years? Wow the population might get to a Trillion people or more? No wars, no abortion, nothing like that! That's going to be interesting! I suppose that's when the meek inherit the earth too?

 

[MA2444]

Why in the world would you ask a fellow Christian a question like that? Come on, dude.

Oh man. We're starting to have a good conversation so is it cool if we drop that stuff?

There's even people on earth who was born a man but think they're a woman now and all that stuff. In this day &age, you dont know exactly what someone does believe until they say so or you ask. He has said some tings that gave me the impression that he might not even believe that prophecy is real. I was not sure, so I asked him. That's all it was. A question.

 

[MA2444]

This lines up with what we see here:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Again, like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, we see a gathering of believers from both heaven and earth. The ones from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ while those from earth are the bodies of the dead in Christ along with those who are alive and remain.

So, it's one event and not two events with one before the tribulation and one after.

Oh forgot this last one. I'm with you on the first two paragraphs. Then that last line seems like it could be misunderstood easily? So if one event is before the trib and one event is after thr trib...then it can be said that the Rapture is pretrib? It sounds like it could be. I think it is too.

I'm beat. Going to sleep.

G'nite yall.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not likely at all. These elders have crowns.

Yes, as I said, these angels could be substituting for the saints until the Coming of Christ. They may represent the work that God will do to obtain the reward of the righteous.

I see the 24 elders are angels because...
1) the scene is filled with angels, and not men.
2) 24 elders is insufficient to represent the Rapture of the Church.
3) the scene is designed to show the Levitical priesthood in a heavenly, angelic form, the priesthood under the Law no longer functioning, and the Levitical Priesthood having ceased to exist.

1 Chron 24 relays there were 24 divisions of priests in the time of King David. So the 24 elders appear to represent a kind of heavenly temple structure, which will not exist for men until we are glorified. Christ is already crowned, but Christians are not yet crowned.

James 1.12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

"Elders" refers to aged, which is never ascribed to angels. So yes, these are men.

Much love!

Angels assume human characteristics at times. We have to assume that they appear as having obtained a certain age whenever they appear as such.

But only angels would have crowns now. The only man who has a crown now is Jesus, that I know of.

 

[The Light]

Yes, as I said, these angels could be substituting for the saints until the Coming of Christ. They may represent the work that God will do to obtain the reward of the righteous.

I see the 24 elders are angels because...
1) the scene is filled with angels, and not men.
2) 24 elders is insufficient to represent the Rapture of the Church.
3) the scene is designed to show the Levitical priesthood in a heavenly, angelic form, the priesthood under the Law no longer functioning, and the Levitical Priesthood having ceased to exist.

1 Chron 24 relays there were 24 divisions of priests in the time of King David. So the 24 elders appear to represent a kind of heavenly temple structure, which will not exist for men until we are glorified.

Christ is already crowned, but Christians are not yet crowned.

Jesus has returned as He said. The elders have crowns.

James 1.12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

Angels assume human characteristics at times. We have to assume that they appear as having obtained a certain age whenever they appear as such. They wouldn't, for example, appear as children.

But only angels would have crowns now. The only man who has a crown now is Jesus, that I know of. This vision shows elders who already have crowns *now,* and not in the future, when the Church is Raptured.

So it don't appear to be men at all. They would likely be angels, though we are not told this. It's a good question.

Right. It is humans that are promised crowns. And Christ in Rev 3 say He is coming and don't let anyone take your crown. Obviously, He has come.
Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Obviously the Holy Spirit working through the church. The church was at work holding back Satan, not pagans. That is similar to the Pharisees saying Satan was casting out Satan. You have pagans following Satan, holding back Satan.

Neither I nor the Church Fathers believed that. Roman Govt was predicted to precede the revelation of both the 10 kings and the Antichrist himself. So the Roman Govt.'s existence somehow "restrained" the appearing of the Antichrist.

The 10 kings are now doing the same thing, preventing the rise of Antichrist, until it is time for Antichrist to assume power over them. He will do that by defeating 3 of them.

The prophecy did not explain precisely how the Roman Govt. would restrain the coming of Antichrist. But we know, from history, that the Roman Kingdom would inherit the Kingdom of God, ie become a Christian Kingdom. And this state of affairs certainly hindered the rise of Antichristianity.

However, when the Catholic Church weakened late in the Middle Ages, the Empire was ready to begin its dissolution into States. And Antichristianity rose along with it, without, as yet, the rise of Antichrist. We do not yet know of any coalition of 10 European "kings," so we cannot yet expect the rise of Antichrist. My view....

 

[Timtofly]

Unbelieving Israel has been facing God's wrath for 2000 years. And obviously, the Church has been present! If you think Israel's great tribulation only starts in the endtimes you haven't been listening. We've had pogroms, holocausts, and centuries of Jewish persecutions. God's punishment has indeed been "great." But it never meant Christians can't be here at the same time they go through these trials.

Interesting that you single out Israel, when most quote Paul saying there is no difference between Israel and Gentiles. The tribulation in the Olivet Discourse was directed to the disciples as part of the church, not their natural birth as Israelites.

The nation of Israel was left as any other nation with all the tribulation, nations bring upon themselves. When God singles out Israel, is after the church is taken out at the rapture/Second Coming. Jesus is on earth as the King of Israel gathering all His people out of all the nations on the earth, where they have been since 720BC, hundreds of years even before Jesus was born.

The redeemed are not killed by any one. They are changed and taken to the sea of glass in heaven. They are not the church in Paradise, they are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom, where Jesus will be their king for a thousand years. But only a third of Israel will be a firstfruits remnant. The other two thirds of Israel will be tossed into the LOF by the angels. The angels will be gathering people. Matthew 25:31-42

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

The angels just gathered the church. Then they sealed the 144k. Now they are gathering Jacob out of all nations. This is during the Trumpets, which is Jacob's trouble. Otherwise called the GT. People are not being killed. They are being tossed alive into the LOF, the second death. This not a general resurrection either. The rest of the dead still have to wait for the thousand years to be over. Matthew 25 is only about those who never physically died. They will be changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and given permanent incorruptible physical bodies to live on the earth for eternity. They will not stand at the GWT, because they were already redeemed at the Second Coming.

You single out Israel during the church age which goes against what Paul wrote. Then you call them the church during the Day of the Lord. The church is not on earth during the Day of the Lord. Israel is the leading nation on earth over all the other nations. All other nations will have to come up each year to offer tribute. There is no church as all are born with God's Word written in the hearts and minds.

 

[WPM]

Fair enough, Man. Let me try to prove that (The Doctrine of Imminency) is real

I assert that there no prophetical signs that must be fulfilled before the rapture of the church. It could happen at any moment.
Conversely, there are definite prophetical signs which must take place before the 2nd coming of Jesus to put an end to wickedness and evil. Once the 7 year peace covenant is signed by israel, that begins the tribulation period. Then 1260days later the antichrist committs the abomination of desolation and that begins the Great tribulation which lasts 1260 days. We (or they on the earth!) will know exactly what day that Jesus will come.

You state all these things as fact as the basis of your argument yet you do not (or cannot) prove them. Where in Daniel 9 or anywhere else in Scripture does it teach a "7 year peace covenant"? This is a Pretrib invention that does not exist in reality.

Matthew 24:44 tells us to be ready.

Matthew 24:40-44
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh..../KJV

Now I believe that this is clearly talking about the rapture. Do we agree on that?
I like the way that Matthew 24 translates verse 44 in the NLT version

Matthew 24:44
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.../NLT

Matthew 24:36
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only....KJV

So nothing has to happen first it will be very unexpected for all.

Not knowing the day and the hour does not prove imminency. It simply means: only God knows that moment.

Revelation 16:15
15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”.../NLT

So why would Jesus come so unexpectedly and snatch a bunch of His people off of the earth? Paul talks about that in:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,..KJV

Now that says we are not appointed to Wrath. It doesnt say that we wont have tribuations in life, but that we are not appointed the Wrath of God (Great Tribuation Wrath).

If the church gets raptured post trib, then what wrath were they not appointed to?! No make sense.

The wrath that destroys all the wicked when Jesus comes. Hello! The tribulation of Satan against the Church is completely different to the wrath of God on the wicked when Jesus comes. Pretribbers do not get that.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10 And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment..../NLT

What is the "terrors of the coming judgement?
The Tribulation of course.

No, the wrath of God. You need to take your Pretrib glasses off. They are blinding you to the truth.

We will not see the Wrath of God. We will hide in our chambers in the place he went to prepare for us with the door shut, until the indignation has passed. (Isaiah 26:20), then we will return to the earth with Jesus after the Great Tribulation.

And we are told to be always ready and watching for He will come suddenly and unexpected. He could come at any moment, thus, Imminent.

I better make another post if you want to explain that we can know the exact day of Jesus return to earth.

He comes in the air for His Bride, the church and when we return with Jesus He comes to the earth to the Mt of Olives.

The tribulation of Satan against the Church is completely different to the wrath of God on the wicked when Jesus comes.

Nothing you say here proves imminency. The coming of the Lord is rather impending. It is approaching. That is all we know. No one knows how soon.