The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[WPM]

What are you, a Master Projectionist? Can't you read the text and draw conclusions from it? Low comprehension? I'm no genius man I'm only a 136 but I have good comprehension. And the kind of things that you say...if by chance (big IF) you were right, you are speaking so far over my head that I am but am imecile child. And what's awesome is that while you will jump on here to say, you're wrong! You dont explain yourself and show where i am wrong, about what, what it really means, and since you speak soo far above me that you are just soo intelligent and lose me. But I don't buy that because I'm not stupid. !36. So if you're so far above me to lose me then you would be intelligent enough to explain yourself.

So I dont buy that conclusion. You are all over the place with your posts and do not speak in the intelligent manner that one would expect someone to speak. Yeah. So if you're intelligent enough to lose me and imly that I have next to zero comprehension myself...then you would make more sense than you do. Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm not insulting you. But if you're that dang smart then you could make a better case for your chosen position on this topic. And it seems like, when you dont have an answer, you ignore the question and list far fetched questions instead of conclusional discussion. (Show me where it says Cell Phone in the Bible?!) and stuff just as absurd.

English, Reading, Comprehension, Critical Thinkng...these were my best subjects in school. You have been unable to convince me that I am wrong about this topic.

Yah-de-daa-de-daa!

Here we go! When you cannot attack the message attack the messenger. And you wonder why so many today are abandoning this belief. If you had a rebuttal for each text and argument you would doubtless give it. If you were on solid ground you would not resort to such infantile behavior.

I will repeat:

If one is to read this portion of Scripture in its most straight-forward and literal way it seems clear that this is specifically speaking to the local church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor) in A.D. 96. There is no way you would instinctively relate it to some end-time global Church prior to the coming of the Lord.

Pretribulationists miss (or ignore) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day. The Philadelphians were firstly commended for their steadfast faithfulness and then secondly, as a result of that, they were promised they would be rewarded by given special protection in the hour of trial. We should not forget that the issue in view here was the brutal persecution of the Christians by the Romans in that day, specifically in Asia Minor. The early Church experienced heavy tribulation throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned in unchallenged power. The obedience that is being documented here (“thou hast kept the word of my patience”) was that of these early Philadelphian believers. The New Living Translation puts it “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere.”

We must establish, who is being protected and when? The Philadelphian Christians are promised protection from the said trial back in biblical times. Jesus assures them “I … will keep thee from the hour of temptation.” Why? On the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God. Their faithfulness is both acknowledge and rewarded: “thou hast kept the word of my patience.” Preservation in the midst of trial was/is a common reality for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to guard His elect in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Am I that unclear? Again, I have several scriptures which don't say the word imminent per se but it very much points to that conclusion when taken tgether and apply thinking to it, the conclusion? Yes I can walk you right through it in detail with scriptures.

I had asked before going into it if I can get you to talk on the text and please dont go off on a tangent. It will either make sense to you, or not. If it doesn't make sense to you, then you should be able to tell me why not? Fair enough?

So don't just say, oh you're wrong with no explaination of why you think so. It's a lot of material and I dont mind typing it if you're reasonable and dont start getting weird. Wrong! Cliche cliche, iinsult, blahblahblah, where is the verse that says it out right so I dont have to think?

You can do better than that Brother, but if you do that, why should I bother typing it out for you? You a hard man to talk to.

I have asked for Scripture, but you have failed to provide that. This is becoming a pattern. You do not seem to appreciate being pressed to support your claims with hard Scripture. I wonder why?

Can I remind you; this is a Bible discussion forum? It is normal and reasonable to ask people to support their claims with the inspired text here.

 

[MA2444]

LOL. Such hypocrisy. You are talking about someone else slinging insults after you said insulting things like this:

Oh, so you mean this is just a a story about something that happened to someother people a few thousand years ago, and really has nothing to do with us?

Wow Brother, that's big!
One question: (maybe two, lol!). Do you know what Prophecy is?
Ever heard of the God which tells the end from the beginning?
Do you believe in Prophecy?

Did you misunderstand me perhaps? Where is the insult?
"Wow Brother, that's Big!" Is that it? you think you hear some sarcasm in there? I'm sorry but you should have picked door number two.

I was being a little facetious but that's still not insulting. Itwould be big, because it would mean to me that I have everything wrong and that all of my time studying this topic has been for naught. Don't you think that would be big? I do. But the man wont or cant explain himsef.

The rest are not insults, they are mere questions. So I believe you have clearly misunderstood me. (Either that or you're a ninny for looking for insults, Lol)
Now before you get upset, that was a joke. Just humor. I meant no insult. But it's just exasperating how often people play a victim card nowadays, it really is. No offense.
This thread could use some humor.

 

[The Light]

The elders may very well be angels that have a role like elders. They may substitute for men, because sometimes angels appear in the form of men. But what they say seems to distance themselves from mankind, even as they stand in for them.

Not likely at all. These elders have crowns.

Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Jesus has come. The elders have their crowns.

There is no indication that they are in heaven as a result of a Rapture. And if you think that John's being caught up to heaven means the Church went up at that point... It means you will sacrifice hermeneutics to make something say what it isn't saying. You are "adding to the words of this revelation."

I don't need to claim that as there are multiple proofs.

I think you misunderstand what Jesus meant by "watch." Jesus was informing his disciples that they aren't being told times and seasons or a precise date for his Coming so that they could focus on what God has called them to do. They keep watch to be alert for any impediments to their mission.

This is all about living responsible lives in light of his coming, and being aware of what might try to make them unready for his Kingdom. Consider the following verses....

Matt 7.15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Matt 24.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
Matt 24.42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
Matt 24.43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
Matt 25.
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’
13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

This is out of context.

We are told to WATCH so we will know when He is coming.

Rev 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

So does this sound as if Christians simply wait with expectation for Christ to come, or it Jesus saying it is a vanity to try to anticipate his coming, that preparation is ensured only by living for him all the time? People watch out for deceptions, and for things that render them impotent spiritually.

They are not to expect Christ's coming at any time, since we are already told his coming must be from heaven, to destroy the Antichrist and to raise the dead saints. We are simply to focus on today, while maintaining hope for tomorrow.

It is *today* that we prepare and maintain readiness. We prepare by living godly lives. We do not prepare by imminent expectation that Christ could show up today!

What you posted was out of context. The context is that if we do not watch we will not know when the thief comes. We are watching for the coming of the Lord for His Church.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[MA2444]

Yah-de-daa-de-daa!

Here we go! When you cannot attack the message attack the messenger. And you wonder why so many today are abandoning this belief. If you had a rebuttal for each text and argument you would doubtless give it. If you were on solid ground you would not resort to such infantile behavior.

Another victim card now? I attacked the messenger? Can't you just, talk like a man to another man? Do I have to treat you girlish to be sure I dont offend you? Geez-Owww!

Look Brother, calm down. Everything will be ok. No one is trying to get you. No one is attacking you. We're just a coupke guys talking. I dunno what to say to you? It's a discussion. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen?

You are not upsetiing me. We're just talking. Two men. Not two girls. Not a girl and a man, two men (I think?). I am a man and maybe I was the last generation to be born that can take straight discussion?

What? You're not making sense man! You better explain that one!! (Said one man to another)...
Uh-oh, now you hurt my feelings?

I'm sorry brother but that's an absurd conversation between two men. It's. Just. Talk.
You bet we disagree! Hold your end up or step out the ring!

You must be a younger generation than me. One that gets easily offended (when their losing the debate, Lol!) (That's man talk too, not fighting words...) Talk. Humor.

Do you believe in prophecy at all? Do me a righteous man and answer a couple of the questions I have asked you..Pretty please?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus likened His coming before wrath to the days of Noah. Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood.

Jesus did not teach a pre-trib rapture whatsoever. He taught that His wrath would accompany His second coming. Notice that He refers to the coming of the Son of man here:

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The coming of the Son of man. When does that happen in relation to the tribulation? He talked about that just prior to this...

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How much more clear can it be? How can you try to say that Jesus talked about some imaginary pre-trib rapture in Matthew 24:37-39 when He had just said shortly before that His coming would occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days"?

No, No absolutely no.

They were eating and until drinking marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah entered the ark.

Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I think knowing what day Noah entered the ark would be extremely important. And he was shut in 6 days before the flood.

LOL. So, you think they just suddenly stopped doing those things 6 days before the rain even started? No, of course not. That's ridiculous. They continued doing those things right up until the flood actually came. The flood took them by surprise because they didn't believe it was coming, so to think they stopped doing things that people always do 6 days before that is ludicrous.

Similarly, people will be doing those things right up until the day Jesus comes and takes His vengeance out on them.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

By the way, if it wasn't for the belief in a pre-trib rapture, I don't believe anyone would deny that what is described in verse 10 will occur when the rapture occurs.

They were eating and drinking etc until the day Noah entered the ark.

But, you think they stopped eating and drinking for 6 days after that? LOL.

The world will be different the day the Church enters the ark. That will likely be 6 days before the wrath of God.

Jesus makes no comparison like this, so you shouldn't, either. You are adding things to scripture that aren't there. We should take Jesus for what He said.

Do you forget that Jesus also compared His coming and the days prior to it to the days of Lot? It's interesting that you say nothing about the days of Lot. Why not?

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

This shows God's wrath coming down the same day that Lot went out of Sodom. Why don't you apply the logic you're using in regards to the days of Noah to the days of Lot as well? Where is the consistency in your approach? Apart from doctrinal bias, it should be plain to see that Jesus compared the days of both Noah and Lot to the days before His second coming. And He indicated that His wrath that will accompany His second coming will occur on the day He comes just like it occurred on the day the flood came and the day Lot went out of Sodom.

Baloney. He gave specifics as written in the Word of God. You seem to want to ignore what we are told. The time is short by the way.

You are clearly the ignorant one here.

 

[The Light]

You make a big mistake if you think "saints" doesn't apply to Christians after Rev 4. Who do you think the Beast beheads? Who do you think God compliments for their faithfulness in resisting the Beast? The "saints" on these occasions are clearly notable "saints," and not poor souls who "missed the Rapture!"

Can you direct me to the post where I said there was no Christians after Rev 4. I don't recall posting that. Maybe you have me confused with someone else?

In my Bible translation I have "God's People." So you think God's People are not Christians?

Don't think I said that. Could you show me the post where I said that?

You think 24 elders constitute the "Raptured Church?" 24 elders?

Don't believe I said that either. Got the post?

I should think that 1) the Church consists of a great multitude of all nations,

It does.

and 2) if the Church had been caught up to heaven the Scriptures would actually say that?

Here's what the scriptures say.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So many of you are looking for the map. However, you have found the map, or so you think. You think He comes immediately after the tribulation of those days, after the man of sin is revealed..............and He does. But He is not coming for the mostly Gentile Church. The Church is already in heaven.

Christ tells us to watch or we will not know when He comes. He is not drawing a map. But there are indications in the scriptures of when He will come. But watch, so you will know. That is why we study the scriptures so we will know what to watch for.

You completely ignore the fact that Christians are raised from the dead *after* they have been martyred by the Beast. How can you say there is no proof Christians were in the period of Antichrist's reign? I don't get it!

I don't think I said that. I think I said that the Church is not mentioned after Rev 3. I'm referring to the mostly Gentile Church. There are definitely Christians. Most of them will be of the 12 tribes of Israel as their eyes will be opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits. They are the first fruits of the second harvest.

 

[MA2444]

It prolly wasnt even supposed to be a debate thread, lol. Brother Jehrico was just sharing some real good information.

The direction this thread has taken makes it aparrent that way too many people do not read their Bibles. Especially the Old Testament.

Because thou has kept my words during my patience...and the word says to read the word. When you don't syudy to show thyself approved, then that's not really keeping His words during His patience, is it?

Just a thought.

 

[marks]

Not likely at all. These elders have crowns.

"Elders" refers to aged, which is never ascribed to angels. So yes, these are men.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

Another victim card now? I attacked the messenger? Can't you just, talk like a man to another man? Do I have to treat you girlish to be sure I dont offend you? Geez-Owww!

Look Brother, calm down. Everything will be ok. No one is trying to get you. No one is attacking you. We're just a coupke guys talking. I dunno what to say to you? It's a discussion. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen?

You are not upsetiing me. We're just talking. Two men. Not two girls. Not a girl and a man, two men (I think?). I am a man and maybe I was the last generation to be born that can take straight discussion?

What? You're not making sense man! You better explain that one!! (Said one man to another)...
Uh-oh, now you hurt my feelings?

I'm sorry brother but that's an absurd conversation between two men. It's. Just. Talk.
You bet we disagree! Hold your end up or step out the ring!

You must be a younger generation than me. One that gets easily offended (when their losing the debate, Lol!) (That's man talk too, not fighting words...) Talk. Humor.

Do you believe in prophecy at all? Do me a righteous man and answer a couple of the questions I have asked you..Pretty please?

Address my biblical arguments above (if you can) and stop your pettiness. Remember, people are watching on. You do not advance anything by constantly avoiding and insulting.

 

[WPM]

It prolly wasnt even supposed to be a debate thread, lol. Brother Jehrico was just sharing some real good information.

The direction this thread has taken makes it aparrent that way too many people do not read their Bibles. Especially the Old Testament.

Because thou has kept my words during my patience...and the word says to read the word. When you don't syudy to show thyself approved, then that's not really keeping His words during His patience, is it?

Just a thought.

Does your mum know you are online?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh! I'm sorry Brother. I must've thought I was talking to one of the absurd ones in this thread for a minute, lol. My apologies.

Ok. I had the thought that, all scripture must agree with all other scriptures and so, doesn't scripture talk about how we are grafted into the vine? The Israelites are not the church, they are God's chosen people...and us gentile Christians have been grafted into the vine of God's people.

Yes, scripture talks about those things and those things are true, but I don't see any indication that Gentiles are in view in Daniel 9:24. But, certainly, Gentile believers have been included in the blessings promised to the people of Israel. Like making reconciliation (atonement) for iniquity, for example. Jesus certainly didn't only do that for the Jews, but for the Gentiles as well. That Gentile believers would be fellowheirs with Israelite believers was a mystery in Old Testament times (Ephesians 3:1-6).

Plus, the big one...this is a prophecy for the end times!

Daniel 12:4
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased..../KJV

And here we are in the end times. And knowledge has been increased. So my conclusion is that, it is for us. Do you agree with my conclusion? It makes sense to me.

This is where we need to use scripture to interpret scripture. Scripture differentiates between "the last time" or "the last days" and "the latter days" that come towards the end of the "the last time" or "last days". Scripture indicates that the end times began long ago already:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

As for knowledge increasing, remember that we're talking about Bible prophecy here. It's not talking about knowledge in general, it's talking about godly knowledge and wisdom increasing. Which is exactly what happened after the Holy Spirit came to dwell within Christians and what happened with the writing of the New Testament. People's understanding of scripture and of God's plans increased greatly after that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did you misunderstand me perhaps? Where is the insult?
"Wow Brother, that's Big!" Is that it? you think you hear some sarcasm in there? I'm sorry but you should have picked door number two.

Did you miss where I asked you to please be serious? Where is the insult? Is that a serious question? You don't think asking someone in this Bible Prophecy forum "Do you know what Prophecy is?" is insulting? You don't think that asking a Christian "Ever heard of the God which tells the end from the beginning" is insulting when everyone hear not only has heard of that God but believes in Him? You don't think that asking another Christian who gives his understanding of Bible prophecy "Do you believe in Prophecy" is insulting? Who are you trying to kid here?

I was being a little facetious but that's still not insulting.

Your questions were insulting. That is obvious. To deny that just makes them even more insulting.

Itwould be big, because it would mean to me that I have everything wrong and that all of my time studying this topic has been for naught. Don't you think that would be big? I do. But the man wont or cant explain himsef.

He has explained himself many times. If you would stop acting like a child and actually pay attention to what he is saying then you wouldn't say this.

The rest are not insults, they are mere questions.

Insulting questions. Give me a break. Who are you trying to kid here? Why be dishonest about this?

So I believe you have clearly misunderstood me.

I definitely have not. You are trying to cover up for yourself and act as if people can't see the obvious.

(Either that or you're a ninny for looking for insults, Lol)
Now before you get upset, that was a joke. Just humor.

You are clearly very immature and, honestly, I believe you are in way over your head here.

I meant no insult.

How am I supposed to believe that? Read your own questions again and tell me how they are not insulting.

But it's just exasperating how often people play a victim card nowadays, it really is. No offense.
This thread could use some humor.

I'm okay with humor, but not condescending humor like asking if someone here knows what prophecy is or believes in prophecy. Everyone here obviously knows what prophecy is and believes in it. No need for ridiculous questions like that. They are not funny and only reveal your high level of immaturity.

 

[RedFan]

Now before you get upset, that was a joke. Just humor. I meant no insult. But it's just exasperating how often people play a victim card nowadays, it really is. No offense.

As an impartial observer of the thread, can I make a suggestion? Leave the attempts at humor aside. Then you won't risk being exasperated.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What are you, a Master Projectionist? Can't you read the text and draw conclusions from it? Low comprehension? I'm no genius man I'm only a 136 but I have good comprehension. And the kind of things that you say...if by chance (big IF) you were right, you are speaking so far over my head that I am but am imecile child. And what's awesome is that while you will jump on here to say, you're wrong! You dont explain yourself and show where i am wrong, about what, what it really means, and since you speak soo far above me that you are just soo intelligent and lose me. But I don't buy that because I'm not stupid. !36. So if you're so far above me to lose me then you would be intelligent enough to explain yourself.

So I dont buy that conclusion. You are all over the place with your posts and do not speak in the intelligent manner that one would expect someone to speak. Yeah. So if you're intelligent enough to lose me and imly that I have next to zero comprehension myself...then you would make more sense than you do. Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm not insulting you. But if you're that dang smart then you could make a better case for your chosen position on this topic. And it seems like, when you dont have an answer, you ignore the question and list far fetched questions instead of conclusional discussion. (Show me where it says Cell Phone in the Bible?!) and stuff just as absurd.

English, Reading, Comprehension, Critical Thinkng...these were my best subjects in school. You have been unable to convince me that I am wrong about this topic.

So, are you saying that you think the key to understanding these things that we're talking about in this thread are having a high level of things like "comprehension" and "critical thinking"? Do you think Paul would agree with that?

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Looks like he did not agree with that. No amount of human "comprehension" or "critical thinking" is going to help you understand the things we're talking about in this thread without getting understanding from the Holy Spirit. So, don't put so much trust in your fallible "comprehension" and "critical thinking" skills.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well he wont explain himself. I'm not insulting him. We're just a couple guys talking. Brothers in Christ no less!

How come everyone gets so offended so easily now? It's almost like they look for a reason to be offended? That's just weird Brother. Jeff Cooper, rest his soul, was right. We live in the age of the Ninny.

Just men talking I thought.

Do you equate being a Christian with being a tough guy or a non-ninny? Give me a break already! Unbelievable! We should talk with respect to each other. Don't ask ridiculous questions like if someone believes in prophecy and all that nonsense. How can you think someone wouldn't be offended by that? Ridiculous! Just stick to discussing the scriptures and leave personal insults out of it. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Am I that unclear? Again, I have several scriptures which don't say the word imminent per se but it very much points to that conclusion when taken tgether and apply thinking to it, the conclusion? Yes I can walk you right through it in detail with scriptures.

I had asked before going into it if I can get you to talk on the text and please dont go off on a tangent. It will either make sense to you, or not. If it doesn't make sense to you, then you should be able to tell me why not? Fair enough?

So don't just say, oh you're wrong with no explaination of why you think so. It's a lot of material and I dont mind typing it if you're reasonable and dont start getting weird. Wrong! Cliche cliche, iinsult, blahblahblah, where is the verse that says it out right so I dont have to think?

You can do better than that Brother, but if you do that, why should I bother typing it out for you? You a hard man to talk to.

Okay, enough of the nonsense. Let's get to the point already. Can you show us where you think scripture implicitly teaches that the rapture is imminent, keeping in mind that you acknowledge that it doesn't teach that explicitly?

 

[MA2444]

I have asked for Scripture, but you have failed to provide that. This is becoming a pattern. You do not seem to appreciate being pressed to support your claims with hard Scripture. I wonder why?

Can I remind you; this is a Bible discussion forum? It is normal and reasonable to ask people to support their claims with the inspired text here.

Fair enough, Man. Let me try to prove that (The Doctrine of Imminency) is real

I assert that there no prophetical signs that must be fulfilled before the rapture of the church. It could happen at any moment.
Conversely, there are definite prophetical signs which must take place before the 2nd coming of Jesus to put an end to wickedness and evil. Once the 7 year peace covenant is signed by israel, that begins the tribulation period. Then 1260days later the antichrist committs the abomination of desolation and that begins the Great tribulation which lasts 1260 days. We (or they on the earth!) will know exactly what day that Jesus will come.

Matthew 24:44 tells us to be ready.

Matthew 24:40-44
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh..../KJV

Now I believe that this is clearly talking about the rapture. Do we agree on that?
I like the way that Matthew 24 translates verse 44 in the NLT version

Matthew 24:44
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.../NLT

Matthew 24:36
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only....KJV

So nothing has to happen first it will be very unexpected for all.

Revelation 16:15
15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”.../NLT

So why would Jesus come so unexpectedly and snatch a bunch of His people off of the earth? Paul talks about that in:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,..KJV

Now that says we are not appointed to Wrath. It doesnt say that we wont have tribuations in life, but that we are not appointed the Wrath of God (Great Tribuation Wrath).

If the church gets raptured post trib, then what wrath were they not appointed to?! No make sense.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10 And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment..../NLT

What is the "terrors of the coming judgement?
The Tribulation of course.

We will not see the Wrath of God. We will hide in our chambers in the place he went to prepare for us with the door shut, until the indignation has passed. (Isaiah 26:20), then we will return to the earth with Jesus after the Great Tribulation.

And we are told to be always ready and watching for He will come suddenly and unexpected. He could come at any moment, thus, Imminent.

I better make another post if you want to explain that we can know the exact day of Jesus return to earth.

He comes in the air for His Bride, the church and when we return with Jesus He comes to the earth to the Mt of Olives.

 

[The Light]

Jesus did not teach a pre-trib rapture whatsoever. He taught that His wrath would accompany His second coming. Notice that He refers to the coming of the Son of man here:

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The coming of the Son of man. When does that happen in relation to the tribulation? He talked about that just prior to this...

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How much more clear can it be? How can you try to say that Jesus talked about some imaginary pre-trib rapture in Matthew 24:37-39 when He had just said shortly before that His coming would occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days"?

The second coming is absolutely immediately after the tribulation of those days. That occurs at the 6th seal. It is the second harvest seen here...........

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This has nothing to do with the Church. The Church can escape all these things and stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

LOL. So, you think they just suddenly stopped doing those things 6 days before the rain even started? No, of course not. That's ridiculous.

This is the difference. You go by what you think is reasonable. I go by what the Word says.

The Word says they were eating and drinking UNTIL the day Noah entered the ark.

Don't you think the animals were acting very strange. I don't have to speculate that the sky was changing and they never saw dark sky's and clouds before. They never heard thunder before and seen lightning. And the earth probably shook because the fountains of the deep were going to break open. I don't need to guess what happens. All I need to know is that the Word says...........UNTIL the day Noah entered the ark.

And that's exactly what it means.

They continued doing those things right up until the flood actually came. The flood took them by surprise because they didn't believe it was coming, so to think they stopped doing things that people always do 6 days before that is ludicrous.

I've got scriptural support. You have what you think will happen. This a common theme. You will never understand until you accept the written word of God and stop spiritualizing and guessing and drawing a what you think is reasonable conclusion.

Similarly, people will be doing those things right up until the day Jesus comes and takes His vengeance out on them.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

By the way, if it wasn't for the belief in a pre-trib rapture, I don't believe anyone would deny that what is described in verse 10 will occur when the rapture occurs.

LOL. I'll certainly deny that has anything to do with EITHER RAPTURE. This is God vengeance. This occurs toward the end of the trumpets of wrath. This is Armageddon. Then Jesus sets His feet on the mount of Olives and sets up His kingdom. This is the second advent.

The second coming however occurs at the 6th seal. Those raptured are singing the song of Moses. There is a rapture at the second coming seen in Rev 14

But, you think they stopped eating and drinking for 6 days after that? LOL.

No Sir. Absolutely not. That is NOT what I think. That is what I know.

Jesus makes no comparison like this, so you shouldn't, either. You are adding things to scripture that aren't there. We should take Jesus for what He said.

The Word says UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK. I have added nothing.

Do you forget that Jesus also compared His coming and the days prior to it to the days of Lot? It's interesting that you say nothing about the days of Lot. Why not?

I have said. You are not paying attention.

The rapture of the Church will be like the days of Noah. Then there are 144,000 first fruits for the second harvest. If your first fruits are pumpkins, the harvest will be pumpkins. Since the first fruits are from the 12 tribes the harvest will be of the twelve tribes. That is why they are singing the song of Moses before the throne in Rev 15.

The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. The very day the 12 tribes across the earth are rapture immediately after the tribulation of those days destruction will come. That day is the Day of the Lord.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Notice it says LIKEWISE also. There are two raptures. One will be like the days of Noah. Likewise also, one will be like the days of Lot.

This shows God's wrath coming down the same day that Lot went out of Sodom.

Exactly. The day the second rapture occurs, the day of the Lord will begin.

Why don't you apply the logic you're using in regards to the days of Noah to the days of Lot as well?

Because there are two raptures. One for the Church in an hour that you think not and one for the 12 tribes across the earth immediately after the tribulation of those days. Then the wrath of God begins

Only those in the nation of Israel that fled to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on the earth when the wrath of God occurs. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

Where is the consistency in your approach?

Perfectly consistent. Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood and the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. The are two raptures.

Apart from doctrinal bias, it should be plain to see that Jesus compared the days of both Noah and Lot to the days before His second coming.

I have no doctrinal bias. The written Word of God is my doctrine. I was a post tribber until I realized things did not add up. There were too many things that I could see that did not make sense. Understanding that the fig tree has two harvests let me realize there are two raptures and one of them is in an hour that you think not. There is a reason that the Church is not mentioned after Rev 3. There is a reason that there are 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Can you direct me to the post where I said there was no Christians after Rev 4. I don't recall posting that. Maybe you have me confused with someone else?


Don't think I said that. Could you show me the post where I said that?


Don't believe I said that either. Got the post?


It does.

Here's what the scriptures say.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So many of you are looking for the map. However, you have found the map, or so you think. You think He comes immediately after the tribulation of those days, after the man of sin is revealed..............and He does. But He is not coming for the mostly Gentile Church. The Church is already in heaven.

Christ tells us to watch or we will not know when He comes. He is not drawing a map. But there are indications in the scriptures of when He will come. But watch, so you will know. That is why we study the scriptures so we will know what to watch for.


I don't think I said that. I think I said that the Church is not mentioned after Rev 3. I'm referring to the mostly Gentile Church. There are definitely Christians. Most of them will be of the 12 tribes of Israel as their eyes will be opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits. They are the first fruits of the second harvest.

Yes, I would think that even Pretribbers would admit the *Church* is on earth during the Reign of Antichrist, or they could not be beheaded! Obviously, they are Christians.

But you say this is not the Gentile Church, as if only Gentiles are Christians? You don't think Jews convert to Christianity? You don't think there are Christians in Israel?

I think you have a few problems here.
1) You say that the "Church" is not mentioned after Rev 3, which misleads others into thinking you believe the *entire Church* has been Raptured. But you say that only the *Gentile Church* has been Raptured. So why isn't the *Jewish Church* mentioned? Are they gone too?
2) 144,000 Christian Jews is not a big enough number for the Antichrist to be burdened with. If he basically rules the earth with fearsome dominance, why is persecuting a smallish army even show up on the radar? Not only that, but mention of 12 tribes is outdated except as a symbolic reference to God's promise to the ancient tribes of Israel. It is an indication God will keep His promise to the entire people of Israel.
3) If Jewish believers go up in the Rapture, who is left in Israel to be the 144,000? And you think that they convert immediately after the Rapture, and grow up as Christians, and mature to the extent they witness to the world against the Antichrist? In less than 7 years? This is not only unrealistic, it isn't even stated as such. But we can have our own opinions.

But I apologize for misrepresenting your position. Thank you for clarifying.