The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[MA2444]

Bro, this sums up Pretrib. It is a concoction of extra-biblical theories that are foisted upon the sacred text. Scripture is manipulated to mean whatever Pretribbers want it to say. Sad!

So honestly...you really haven't studied it through at all, just a little, here and there.

That's rhetorical, no need to reply to that. I used to be a solid post trib believer. And they made good arguments on both sides of the debate. So I wound up studying this for a long time and slow learner that I must be, incrementally I began to understand how it firs together.

If one reads rapture scriptures and tribulation scriptures There will be contradictions, period. Would you care to talk about the glaring contradictions by making them one event?

It says the rapture is imminent. There is no scripture or prophecies that needs fulfilled before He returns for His bride. e says I come when you least expect it so be watching. Jesus's 2nd coming can be dated once the antichrist gets Israel to sign the 7 yr treaty. Matthew 24:44, 2 Peter 3:10, Matthew 25:13,

 

[MA2444]

You are gerrymandering Scripture to fit what you have been taught. You basically admit that there is no mention of the Church, a rapture or a 7-year trib here. You force it into the text to support Pretrib. It is same with every other passage Pretribbers present. It doesn't say what they claim. The packaging and the goods do not match up.

Many of us were taught this when we were young but have found it to be a con.

Let the Bible speak for itself! You will discover that there one final future coming of Christ.

It seems like you havent read anything that I wrote or read any of the scriptures for yourself. So maybe you really arent in search of the truth, you want to be right and that's all. Otherwise you would actualy read what's being written and try seeing the truth. Too much work for you? It is a long and involved study, I'll tell you that. But if you would actually read and study it for yourself, then you wouldnt have to say things like, well many of us have found it to be a con. WHo is that exactly? Because you say that as if you are merely siding with a group of people whom you feel are correct so you are choosing to (blindly) side with them in your confidence in them and their work.

If it were something that you actually did study for yourself you would have more to say and discuss than, oh you are wrong because many of us know the truth of the con! Geez brother, who am I talking to here? You or "Us" who you sided with and hide behind that instead of meeting the discussion yourself. You can do that if you want, it is your chioce. I was kind of hoping you would discuss the contradictions that are created when you start from the preconceived notion of a post trib rapture. You failed to address even one of the few I brought to your attention. And I have several more also, but you wont let us get there, because "us" said not to. A poor way way to discuss something in my mind.

So...have at it I guess. Believe what you want to but I just hope that "us" is correct so you wont miss the rapture!

 

[MA2444]

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

Maybe, but what good would that do if all you will do is not read it for yourself and stand on a myterious "us" that doesn't think that way? It sounds like I'd be better off discussing it with "us" rather than you? WHo is us? I'd like to discuss with them some instead of you. I might get better discussion from that?

 

[MA2444]

Please post any scripture that you claim prevents the pre tribulation rapture. You don't have any.

Discussing anything about the pretrib rapture is soo hard when you're talking with a Amillienialist. This is all about people's hermenutics. They don't discuss it on the merits of the text but on the tradition of men. Most of the church is amillienialists so they're allegorical interpretations dont even really get posted.

It what most of "us" believe...that's it. That's not even good debating or debating on the merits of the text. I think t's more about they want to be right and they fail to realize that we all are not on different sides, we are all in this together, as compadres.

They have some things wrong. I have some things wrong. No one is infallible and we as Brothers & Sisters in Christ are supposed to discuss the text to further edify everyone. But they wont do that. It seems like they only want to be right and win the debate, not search out the real truth. That's why this guy you spoke too wont address a very lot of what we say or ask him.

it's a shame to not be able to set aside one's preconceived notions for the sake of discussion and study and actually address the text. Uh oh, what that premillienialist said makes me uncomfortable and I dont have an answer for it, so I'll just say, oh you are perverting the text to say what you want it to and "us" has already figured hat out! (WPM).

That's akin to Proverbs 18:13 and gives us no debate at all. Just opinion.

 

[MA2444]

Bro, this sums up Pretrib. It is a concoction of extra-biblical theories that are foisted upon the sacred text. Scripture is manipulated to mean whatever Pretribbers want it to say. Sad!

I tell you what, let's approach this from a different angle shall we?

I'll post a couple verse from scripture and instead of me trying to tell you what they mean, I ask you what they mean. Is that fair? I think so. Ok here we go:

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come..../KJV

WHat is this about? What does it mean?

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth..../KJV

What does this mean?

I have more too but let us please discuss this on the merits of the text, from your perspective. Not mine mine. Not "us".

 

[MA2444]

BTW, who says it doesn't tak about the rapture in the OT?

It might not say rapture speciffically, but what could this passage possibly mean?

Isaiah 26:19-21
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.../KJV

Who is "my people?" What chambers? Verse 21 is clearly taking about the Tribulation.
I may be "in" the earth, but I an not "of" the earth. He said, come my people...and hide here for a little while...What? What could that mean?

Oh. Did He not say, I go to prepare a place for you? So come my people to a place I have prepared for you and shut the doors, hide! until the indignation is past (the wrath of God brought upon the earth in the tribulation)

That's rapture talk. Scripture doesn't say anywhere that the Bride/Church has to go through the tribulation. In fact it says the opposite in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and revelation 3:10.

I await to be proven wrong about this one...Enlighten me if you can. On the merits of the text and not what you heard eveyone believes, lol!

 

[WPM]

LOL. There are elders in heaven with crowns and kings and priest before the throne. Jesus has come. Simple as that.

You are looking for something that cancels out the Word of God. Not going to happen. He is not going to tell you when He will come. That why believers are told to watch.

Can I remind you, the dead in Christ are in heaven now around the throne of God? Since Christ's first resurrection, sin has been defeated, death has been defeated, Satan has been defeated. Therefore, the redeemed go into the immediate presence of Jesus upon death. Do you reject such an orthodox reality? This text is simply depicting the dead in Christ in glory awaiting the one final future coming of Christ, when Christ will bring the dead in Christ with Him to destroy the wicked and populate the new earth.

You have clearly no future rapture before this to take the redeemed physically to heaven.

The writer to the Hebrews censures your beliefs in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come (plural perfect active indicative) unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest … But ye are come (plural perfect active indicative) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Here, currently, we see where the dead in Christ are right now. These highlighted references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

Matthew 24
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

This is the one final future coming of Christ. What has this to do with that text? You cannot force it into an unrelated text.

I never said anything about a 7 year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel which is 7 years.

Empty claim. You don't even understand the order of Revelation.

It is clear from your avoidance that you do not have a rapture passage that teaches a seven-year tribulation following it. In fact, you do not have a rapture passage that shows anyone surviving the second coming of the Lord or any period of protracted tribulation. Pretrib basically cobbles Scripture together in an ad-hoc manner in order to try and make it fit. Its math is way off. It is like 2+2+2=222.

Any time I ask you for evidence of a seven-year tribulation you seem to get very uncomfortable. That's because Daniel 9 does not even mention a seven-year tribulation. You have to impose that on the sacred text. The book of Revelation does not outline a seven-year tribulation. You have to impose that on the sacred text. There is nowhere else in the Old or New Testament that teaches a seven-year tribulation after the coming of the Lord. You have to impose that on the sacred text.

It doesn't. That should be a hint for you. It isn't the Church being raptured.

Is this your 3rd coming and 2nd rapture? Where does it mention a "rapture" here?

 

[BlessedPeace]

Unbelieving Israel has been facing God's wrath for 2000 years. And obviously, the Church has been present! If you think Israel's great tribulation only starts in the endtimes you haven't been listening. We've had pogroms, holocausts, and centuries of Jewish persecutions. God's punishment has indeed been "great." But it never meant Christians can't be here at the same time they go through these trials.

In context, this "wrath" is speaking of Eternal Judgment--not the Reign of Antichrist!

As I've long said, Pretribbers do not rely on the biblical text, but on "private revelation." If you do not rely on explicit statements from Scriptures, then you're trying to speak for the Holy Spirit.

All the cults claim to have "special revelation." Pretribbers are no different.

You're mistaken.

 

[WPM]

There is not a single post that prevents pretrib. That is nonsense.

Please feel free to post any scripture that you claim prevents the pretrib rapture and I will prove your error.


Please post any scripture that you claim prevents the pre tribulation rapture. You don't have any.


OK. I will read and address your cut and paste material.


Who are my teachers. There are not many people that understand that there are two raptures. Please name a few possibilities.

The reader will see the multiple posts above that remain unaddressed.

Everywhere you look inn the inspired pages forbids Pretrib and Premil.

Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

The wicked, to a man, are immediately destroyed, as in Noah and Lot’s day (Joel 2:1-3, Joel 2:10-11, Isaiah 13:6-12, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 3:12, Luke 17:27-30, I Thessalonians 5:2-4, II Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 2:5-9, Revelation 19:17-21).

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

 

[WPM]

The Church is already in heaven in Rev 5 as they are the kings and priests before throne. But Rev 5 is before the seals are opened & Revelation 5: 8 are prayers of the saints. So this doesn't work.

Rev 8:3-4 are prayers of the saints and not saints. So that doesn't work.

Rev 11 is the judgement of the saints so everything is over, so that doesn't work.

Rev 13:7 and 10 mentions saints but it can't be the Church. The Church is already in heaven in Rev 5 and the saints talked about are the Jews that are the seed of the woman which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 is talking about the Jews. This is the great tribulation period. Church is already in heaven as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Revelation 15:3 is talking about the Jews. They are singing the song of Moses.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Revelation 16:6 is about those that shed the blood of the saints, so that won't work.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Revelation 17:6 is about the woman that is drunken with the blood of the saints. So that won't work.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelation 19:8 is about the saints in heaven at the marriage supper. So that won't work.

Revelation 20:9 Happens after the 1000 years. So that won't work.

Nothing you posted can be about the Church of today being on earth after the seals are opened. There is a reason they are not mentioned as they are already in heaven.


Already covered Rev 5. As to Rev 14:3-4 those 144,000 are of the twelve tribes.......just like the Word says.

Revelation 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the 144,000 or the other mentioning of the Jews that was posted.


Revelation 16 is talking about the martyrs. And we already know that those killed in the great tribulation will be singing the song of Moses as they are of the twelve tribes.

Brethren can be both Jews and Gentiles

I am moving on as nothing you are posting shows the Church on earth during the great tribulation.


Scanned it at best. If you have anything above that you think is proof of the Church being on earth during the great tribulation I will be happy to address it. Moving on to your other post.

Once again, you make a Pretrib statement and think that proves your position. It doesn't. It shows how erroneous Pretrib is and how bereft it is of clear Scripture. Where is your Scripture that show the ecclesia (the Church) are raptured before Rev 5. It simply doesn't exist. You have been taught wrong. You have no evidence to bring to the table. The saints of Christ remain on earth until the one final future coming of Christ.

Your avoidance proves my supposition.

 

[WPM]

The coming of the Lord when it's like the days of Noah is referring to the rapture of the Church. Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood just as the Church will likely be in the ark 6 years before the wrath of God. The coming of the Lord that is like the days of Lot will have the Lord coming the very day the wrath of God begins.

This is the second coming seen in Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God
Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Also seen in Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus will return at the end of wrath for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom. When He lands on the earth it is the second advent.

You make it up as you. You do not even quote the relevant sacred text because it exposes your reasoning.

Firstly, God did not shut Noah and his family up in safety in the ark for 6 or 7 days as some Pretribs argue. God gave Noah 7 days notice – allowing him to fill the ark with his family and the animals, saying, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" (Genesis 7:4).

7 days notice until the rain comes!!! God then closed the ark and the floods immediately came and destroyed all the wicked. Jesus said, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:27).

Whilst all the wicked are swept away in this flood when the ark closed, the rain continued pouring down for 40 days. What is more, the water remained on the earth 150 days in total until the ark rested on Ararat.

 

[WPM]

You sound like F2F in your style of argument.
Daniel 9 is God dealing with Israel in the time to come. The wrath,tribulation.

Why would Christians,those who recognize the Jewish Messiah Yeshua as Savior,be present? When unbelieving Israel is facing God's wrath.

Christians know
1 Thessalonians 4 very well. The living and the dead in Christ shall meet him in the air.

While chapter 5 tells us, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

It often appears in talks like this that some need it stated directly. "Christians will be raptured..." before it is believed by them.

It is spelled out though. One just has to read it to see it.
Like Yeshua said, it was given to some to understand his parables. Yet,others did not understand because they weren't meant to.

That's God.
He plans things His way.

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 is helpful to us here: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

You can see, this passage recognizes only two types of person at Christ's appearing (as all Scripture). Saved or lost, caught up or caught on. In fact, it carefully situates men in one of only two distinct groupings, and conclusively proves that it is only 'them that know God' and 'obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ' that will survive the second coming. The rest are expressly destroyed.

Please note the wicked – to a man - are destroyed from "the presence of the Lord." This couldn't be more water tight.

What unregenerate man is excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

In our previous discussion you seem to create a third group of grey people. These were ‘the don't knows’, ‘hope so’s’ or ‘maybes’. You had them surviving the wrath of God. Friend, there is no such thing. There is only saved or lost recognised in Scripture. The redeemed will be delivered in full when Christ appears, the wicked will be destroyed in full.

 

[WPM]

So honestly...you really haven't studied it through at all, just a little, here and there.

That's rhetorical, no need to reply to that. I used to be a solid post trib believer. And they made good arguments on both sides of the debate. So I wound up studying this for a long time and slow learner that I must be, incrementally I began to understand how it firs together.

If one reads rapture scriptures and tribulation scriptures There will be contradictions, period. Would you care to talk about the glaring contradictions by making them one event?

It says the rapture is imminent. There is no scripture or prophecies that needs fulfilled before He returns for His bride. e says I come when you least expect it so be watching. Jesus's 2nd coming can be dated once the antichrist gets Israel to sign the 7 yr treaty. Matthew 24:44, 2 Peter 3:10, Matthew 25:13,

You are voicing mere opinion here without supporting it with hard Scripture. This exemplifies why so many are abandoning Pretrib today.

What Scripture says the rapture is "imminent"?
Prove that there is no scripture or prophecies that needs fulfilled before He returns for His bride"?

 

[WPM]

It seems like you havent read anything that I wrote or read any of the scriptures for yourself. So maybe you really arent in search of the truth, you want to be right and that's all. Otherwise you would actualy read what's being written and try seeing the truth. Too much work for you? It is a long and involved study, I'll tell you that. But if you would actually read and study it for yourself, then you wouldnt have to say things like, well many of us have found it to be a con. WHo is that exactly? Because you say that as if you are merely siding with a group of people whom you feel are correct so you are choosing to (blindly) side with them in your confidence in them and their work.

If it were something that you actually did study for yourself you would have more to say and discuss than, oh you are wrong because many of us know the truth of the con! Geez brother, who am I talking to here? You or "Us" who you sided with and hide behind that instead of meeting the discussion yourself. You can do that if you want, it is your chioce. I was kind of hoping you would discuss the contradictions that are created when you start from the preconceived notion of a post trib rapture. You failed to address even one of the few I brought to your attention. And I have several more also, but you wont let us get there, because "us" said not to. A poor way way to discuss something in my mind.

So...have at it I guess. Believe what you want to but I just hope that "us" is correct so you wont miss the rapture!

I have studied this subject in depth for 24 years. I see the error of Pretrib and Premil. Pretrib doesn't even have one single clear proof text to support it. That is why you or no Pretrib can bring one single text to the table that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

The reality is, when Jesus comes, that is it, men will either be caught up or caught on. There is no in-between.

 

[WPM]

BTW, who says it doesn't tak about the rapture in the OT?

It might not say rapture speciffically, but what could this passage possibly mean?

Isaiah 26:19-21
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.../KJV

Who is "my people?" What chambers? Verse 21 is clearly taking about the Tribulation.
I may be "in" the earth, but I an not "of" the earth. He said, come my people...and hide here for a little while...What? What could that mean?

Oh. Did He not say, I go to prepare a place for you? So come my people to a place I have prepared for you and shut the doors, hide! until the indignation is past (the wrath of God brought upon the earth in the tribulation)

That's rapture talk. Scripture doesn't say anywhere that the Bride/Church has to go through the tribulation. In fact it says the opposite in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and revelation 3:10.

I await to be proven wrong about this one...Enlighten me if you can. On the merits of the text and not what you heard eveyone believes, lol!

This passage supports the Amil position.

Isaiah 24:17-33 declares: “Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish (פּקד - pâqad) the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited (פּקד - pâqad). Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.”

This is speaking of the build up to, and the arrival of, the Second Advent. This sees God pouring out His judgment upon His enemies and the regeneration of the universe. I don't see any mention of, or allowance for, a millennium in Isaiah 24.

Isaiah 25:7-9, 26:19-27:1 continues, “he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation … Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

Isaiah describes the coming of the Lord and associates this with the destruction of the wicked. He also outlines the resurrection of the dead that accompanies this great concluding event in history. He also confirms that this is the time when Satan is finally slain.

This is also the time when Christ “will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth.” Here is glorification outlined. Here is the deliverance of God’s people from the bondage of corruption. Here is when death receives its final end.

Isaiah shows how God’s people inherit the eternal state when Jesus comes. They are suitably attired in perfection to inherit the perfected age and glorified earth to come. This is a prerequisite to entering the new arrangement.

Premils populate the age to come with countless mortal sinners that feign their allegiance to Christ and then rebel en-mass in their billions (as the sand of the sea) to follow their true master Satan. This will never happen. Multiple Scripture forbids that.

 

[WPM]

I tell you what, let's approach this from a different angle shall we?

I'll post a couple verse from scripture and instead of me trying to tell you what they mean, I ask you what they mean. Is that fair? I think so. Ok here we go:

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come..../KJV

WHat is this about? What does it mean?

To get a Pretrib rapture out of this passage would require us to assume that the “wrath to come” is actually a 7-year tribulation. However, there is no suggestion of that in the text. The “wrath to come” here is the judgment of God, when Jesus destroys the wicked with fire at the end. What delivers us from that awful fate is Jesus. He is presented here as our hope of deliverance. In salvation we enter into a relationship with Him, this enables us to escape the wrath God has for the wicked.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth..../KJV

What does this mean?

I have more too but let us please discuss this on the merits of the text, from your perspective. Not mine mine. Not "us".

Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

If one is to read this portion of Scripture in its most straight-forward and literal way it seems clear that this is specifically speaking to the local church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor) in A.D. 96. There is no way you would instinctively relate it to some end-time global Church prior to the coming of the Lord.

Pretribulationists miss (or ignore) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day. The Philadelphians were firstly commended for their steadfast faithfulness and then secondly, as a result of that, they were promised they would be rewarded by given special protection in the hour of trial. We should not forget that the issue in view here was the brutal persecution of the Christians by the Romans in that day, specifically in Asia Minor. The early Church experienced heavy tribulation throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned in unchallenged power. The obedience that is being documented here (“thou hast kept the word of my patience”) was that of these early Philadelphian believers. The New Living Translation puts it “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere.”

We must establish, who is being protected and when? The Philadelphian Christians are promised protection from the said trial back in biblical times. Jesus assures them “I … will keep thee from the hour of temptation.” Why? On the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God. Their faithfulness is both acknowledge and rewarded: “thou hast kept the word of my patience.” Preservation in the midst of trial was/is a common reality for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to guard His elect in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.

 

[BlessedPeace]

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 is helpful to us here: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

You can see, this passage recognizes only two types of person at Christ's appearing (as all Scripture). Saved or lost, caught up or caught on. In fact, it carefully situates men in one of only two distinct groupings, and conclusively proves that it is only "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" that will survive the second coming. The rest are expressly destroyed.

Please note the wicked – to a man - are destroyed from "the presence of the Lord." This couldn't be more water tight.

What unregenerate man is excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

In our previous discussion you seem to create a third group of grey people. These were ‘the don't knows’, ‘hope so’s’ or ‘maybes’. You had them surviving the wrath of God. Friend, there is no such thing. There is only saved or lost recognised in Scripture. The redeemed will be delivered in full when Christ appears, the wicked will be destroyed in full.

You said this above.
"...In fact, it carefully situates men in one of only two distinct groupings, and conclusively proves that it is only "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" that will survive the second coming. The rest are expressly destroyed.

Do you realize this?

 

[marks]

BTW, who says it doesn't tak about the rapture in the OT?

It might not say rapture speciffically, but what could this passage possibly mean?

Isaiah 26:19-21
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.../KJV

This is God's promise of restoration to Israel. Back up a few verses for more context. "Thy chambers" may be signifying the woman fleeing to the wilderness. Read this in companion with Isaiah 28,

Isaiah 28:17-22 KJV
17) Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18) And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19) From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20) For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
21) For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22) Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

There will be two camps, as it were, those who are hid from the indignation, and those who are scourged by it, but both of these groups are Israel, to whom both passages were addressed.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

You said this above.
"...In fact, it carefully situates men in one of only two distinct groupings, and conclusively proves that it is only "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" that will survive the second coming. The rest are expressly destroyed.

Do you realize this?

Sorry. I misspoke. It is only 'them that know God' and 'obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ' that will survive the second coming. Thanks for showing that!

 

[The Light]

Can I remind you, the dead in Christ are in heaven now around the throne of God? Since Christ's first resurrection, sin has been defeated, death has been defeated, Satan has been defeated. Therefore the redeemed go into the immediate presence of Jesus upon death. Do you reject such an orthodox reality? This is simply depicting the dead in Christ in glory awaiting the one final future coming of Christ, when Christ will bring the dead in Christ with Him to destroy the wicked and populate the new earth.

There are souls in heaven, no doubt.

You have clearly no future rapture before this to take the redeemed physically to heaven.

There are 24 elders in heaven with crowns. Jesus has come for the Church.

Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

This is the one final future coming of Christ. What has this to do with that text? You cannot force it into an unrelated text.

Where in Revelation is this one future coming of Christ???????????????

It is clear from your avoidance that you do not have a rapture passage that teaches a seven-year tribulation following it.

How many times do I have to tell you. I never said the tribulation was 7 years long.

In fact, you do not have a rapture passage that shows anyone surviving the second coming of the Lord or any period of protracted tribulation. Pretrib basically cobbles Scripture together in an ad-hoc manner in order to try and make it fit. Its math is way off. It is like 2+2+2=222.

Agreed. They don't understand there are two raptures. And when you understand this, it all fits together perfectly.

Anytime I ask you for evidence of a seven-year tribulation you seem to get very uncomfortable.

Anytime I ask you for evidence of a flat earth, you duck the question. Don't avoid the question. Where is your scriptural support for a flat earth? Please support your claims of a flat earth.

That's because Daniel 9 does not even mention a seven-year tribulation. You have to impose that on the sacred text. The book of Revelation does not outline a seven-year tribulation.

Great. And the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Why do you keep wanting to put the Church going through all that tribulation when we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You have to impose that on the sacred text. There is nowhere else in the Old or New Testament that teaches a seven-year tribulation after the coming of the Lord. You have to impose that on the sacred text.

Great. Now please provide scriptural support for a flat earth. Don't claim there is a flat earth and then dodge my question.

Is this your 3rd coming and 2nd rapture? Where does it mention a "rapture" here?

Clarify?