The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[WPM]

The only thing I'm ducking is where you claim I said the tribulation was 7 years.

As for posting scripture, I post it all the time.

You are dodging multiple posts that forbid Pretrib. Pretribs cannot address these because they are watertight.

I did not have time to read your long cut and paste responses as I am getting ready to watch the BB Game and don't have the time.

The only reason I repeat arguments is because it is impossible to get Pretribbers to address the biblical evidence that forbids their arguments. Why would i reinvent the wheel. Why would I write a new detailed post that is going to be avoided by Pretribs? No chance!

As for His scripture about the dead all rising at the same time I have already posted the scriptures that prove he is wrong found and he knows it.

He wants to claim that I do not take scripture literally like I say I do............but he doesn't understand the scripture he is posting. Maybe when he answers the question I asked he will figure it out.

I do not see one single argument showing 2 raptures. Your teachers have misled you.

 

[MA2444]

1. Where is there any mention of the Church in Daniel 9.
2. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
6. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
7. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
9. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
10. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
11. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

1. It's in verse 24. It doesn't mention the church par se but it says thy people, or iow, Believers.
2. That's in verse 26.
3. That's in verse 27.
4. Daniel 9 doesn't really mention the rapture but it mentions the time period of the tribulation.
5. There isnt a single verse that I can cheery pick for you that will explain everything about the rapture and tribuation. It's a very involved study with many other supporting scriptures. It's hard to explain so you understand it, you pretty much have to read all of it and put it together in your mind so that you have understanding of it. I can certainly provide you with a list of scriptures which speak exclusively about the pretrib rapture and another list of scriptures that speak of the 2nd coming. Would you like that?
6. That's in Daniel 12:4.
7. Well, the Angel which came to Daniel first comes in Daniel 9 and he stays for awhile and has a lot to say. So start with Daniel 9 and read Daniel 10-11-12 also and you get to read a lot about the antichrist because the angel keeps talking about the end times, antichrist and the tribulation period.
8. That's in Daniel 9:27
9. Daniel 9:27
10. Who? The 144,000 or those saved during the tribulation?
11. Pretty much all over scripture. We know they have had two temples and both were destroyed. t speaks of the antichrist stoppng the sacrifices and placing an abomination which leads to desolation in the midst of the 7 year peace covenant. That didn't happen. They would have to have a 3rd temple built or he couldn't do this.
Relevant scriptures are Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and so forth.

 

[WPM]

1. It's in verse 24. It doesn't mention the church par se but it says thy people, or iow, Believers.
2. That's in verse 26.
3. That's in verse 27.
4. Daniel 9 doesn't really mention the rapture but it mentions the time period of the tribulation.
5. There isnt a single verse that I can cheery pick for you that will explain everything about the rapture and tribuation. It's a very involved study with many other supporting scriptures. It's hard to explain so you understand it, you pretty much have to read all of it and put it together in your mind so that you have understanding of it. I can certainly provide you with a list of scriptures which speak exclusively about the pretrib rapture and another list of scriptures that speak of the 2nd coming. Would you like that?
6. That's in Daniel 12:4.
7. Well, the Angel which came to Daniel first comes in Daniel 9 and he stays for awhile and has a lot to say. So start with Daniel 9 and read Daniel 10-11-12 also and you get to read a lot about the antichrist because the angel keeps talking about the end times, antichrist and the tribulation period.
8. That's in Daniel 9:27
9. Daniel 9:27
10. Who? The 144,000 or those saved during the tribulation?
11. Pretty much all over scripture. We know they have had two temples and both were destroyed. t speaks of the antichrist stoppng the sacrifices and placing an abomination which leads to desolation in the midst of the 7 year peace covenant. That didn't happen. They would have to have a 3rd temple built or he couldn't do this.
Relevant scriptures are Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and so forth.

You are gerrymandering Scripture to fit what you have been taught. You basically admit that there is no mention of the Church, a rapture or a 7-year trib here. You force it into the text to support Pretrib. It is same with every other passage Pretribbers present. It doesn't say what they claim. The packaging and the goods do not match up.

Many of us were taught this when we were young but have found it to be a con.

Let the Bible speak for itself! You will discover that there one final future coming of Christ.

 

[MA2444]

But this is the end. There is no tribulation following it. It is the end of the world.

You read about that in Daniel 9-12

Without knowing the language and the customs from that time it is easy to gloss over the text and think it is talking about one event. But it is two events. He comes for His Bride and raptures her and that doesnt start the tribulation, though it will probably be very soon thereafter. The tribulation begins on the day they sign a 7 year peace covenant with Israel. Then 1260 days later antichrist breaks the treaty and goes into the temple and demonstrates he is god and wants to be worshipped. Then 1260 days later, Jesus returns for the 2nd coming to put evil down and an end to wickedness and binds satan for 1000 years and then restores everything back like it was in Eden pretty much I think. So I guess Jesus is going to do a remodel on the earth. WW III is going to be used as the demolition phase of the remodeling job! That will probably be when the meek inherit the earth also I think. And Israel gets it's assigned borders that they have never held before! All the promises get fulfilled.

 

[WPM]

You read about that in Daniel 9-12

Without knowing the language and the customs from that time it is easy to gloss over the text and think it is talking about one event. But it is two events. He comes for His Bride and raptures her and that doesnt start the tribulation, though it will probably be very soon thereafter. The tribulation begins on the day they sign a 7 year peace covenant with Israel. Then 1260 days later antichrist breaks the treaty and goes into the temple and demonstrates he is god and wants to be worshipped. Then 1260 days later, Jesus returns for the 2nd coming to put evil down and an end to wickedness and binds satan for 1000 years and then restores everything back like it was in Eden pretty much I think. So I guess Jesus is going to do a remodel on the earth. WW III is going to be used as the demolition phase of the remodeling job! That will probably be when the meek inherit the earth also I think. And Israel gets it's assigned borders that they have never held before! All the promises get fulfilled.

You are forcing all this into the sacred text, where it does not exist. That is classic Pretrib. You have already conceded that there is no mention of the Church, a rapture or a 7-year trib here. This is called adding unto Scripture, and is forbidden by the Holy Spirit.

 

[WPM]

1. It's in verse 24. It doesn't mention the church par se but it says thy people, or iow, Believers.
2. That's in verse 26.
3. That's in verse 27.
4. Daniel 9 doesn't really mention the rapture but it mentions the time period of the tribulation.
5. There isnt a single verse that I can cheery pick for you that will explain everything about the rapture and tribuation. It's a very involved study with many other supporting scriptures. It's hard to explain so you understand it, you pretty much have to read all of it and put it together in your mind so that you have understanding of it. I can certainly provide you with a list of scriptures which speak exclusively about the pretrib rapture and another list of scriptures that speak of the 2nd coming. Would you like that?
6. That's in Daniel 12:4.
7. Well, the Angel which came to Daniel first comes in Daniel 9 and he stays for awhile and has a lot to say. So start with Daniel 9 and read Daniel 10-11-12 also and you get to read a lot about the antichrist because the angel keeps talking about the end times, antichrist and the tribulation period.
8. That's in Daniel 9:27
9. Daniel 9:27
10. Who? The 144,000 or those saved during the tribulation?
11. Pretty much all over scripture. We know they have had two temples and both were destroyed. t speaks of the antichrist stoppng the sacrifices and placing an abomination which leads to desolation in the midst of the 7 year peace covenant. That didn't happen. They would have to have a 3rd temple built or he couldn't do this.
Relevant scriptures are Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and so forth.

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

 

[Timtofly]

That is one approach, which I reject due to the assumption that we are talking, in the stream of biblical truth, about the *day* of Christ's Coming, understood as a literal "day," namely the "last day" of the age.

The Millennium cannot start until Satan is bound. But the day of the Lord is when Christ comes to have Satan put in a pit. In other words, the day of Christ's Coming is *before* the Millennium. In fact, it is Christ's Coming that precipitates the beginning of the Millennium. They are not the same thing, in my opinion.

I don't argue over synonyms--that's a ludicrous argument. Words can be stated in different ways. Clearly, there is an explicit theology of Christ's 2nd Coming. It can be found in Dan 7 with the prophecy of the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds to establish God's Kingdom on earth and to defeat the Antichrist, the "Little Horn."

This is precisely what Paul taught in 2 Thes 2, that before the day when Christ comes to assemble his Church the Antichrist must 1st arise and deceive the world. Then Christ will come to defeat him. That also is stated in the most explicit, doctrinal terms.

Yes, Jesus' ascension is sort of a foretaste of the Church's Rapture at Christ's Coming. Ascending to heaven is Christ taking the initiative as Son of God. Our being Raptured is our being seized by heavenly angels to meet the Lord in order to participate with Christ in his glorious revelation on earth.

Jesus is not coming on the last day of this age. Jesus was already on earth and declared King at the 7th Trumpet. That was not the last day of this age.

Peter said the Day of the Lord in his explanation of what a thousand years was. Not sure why there is an issue with Peter’s point?

Jesus will only defeat any Satanic empire if one is allowed, after the 7th Trumpet.

The millennium is what cannot start until Satan is bound. The Second Coming is when the church is taken away, so Satan can no longer be restrained.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't know that you understand what I believe? My position is in no way Pretrib! I was explaining how I view "one taken, one left."

For me, Jesus defined the Great Tribulation as the time span from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD to his 2nd Coming. It is called a "Jewish Punishment." It was the result of Israel abandoning God and their Messiah.

God had told Israel, via Moses, that if they abandoned Him and His Law they would be cast forth from the land. And indeed, when they rejected their Messiah, God cast them out of their land by the Romans. This was the "Great Distress" Jesus mentioned, aka the "Great Tribulation."

Many have re-defined the "Great Tribulation" to refer only to the 3.5 or 7 years of Antichrist's Reign. The Bible does not define it as such, but okay, I can live with that name. It will be the last part of 2000+ years of Jewish suffering. It will be the final push of Antichristianity which has been alive since Jesus' time.

Actually, he did. He indicated he would come on the "last day" of the age. See John 6. He said we should reject any claimed Coming if it isn't "from heaven in glory." There would be false earthly movements claiming to be Christ's Kingdom on earth before that time.

The term "Day of the Lord" can mean different things, depending on context. It can refer to judgment, it can refer to restoration, it can refer to a single day or it can refer to an extended era of time. It depends upon context.

When the NT speaks of the "Day of the Lord" in the context of Christ's Coming, it is a single day because the source for all this information comes from Dan 7, which is all about a single day in which the Son of Man comes to initiate his Kingdom.

Then the Restrainer was take away in the first century. That is what causes Satan to be revealed, and unrestrained.

 

[Timtofly]

Actually, he did. He indicated he would come on the "last day" of the age. See John 6.

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

That was the last day resurrection at the Cross. Nothing about a second coming mentioned.

 

[Timtofly]

Does it take 7 yrs for a Jewish Wedding to be consummated? Of course not. This is another Pretrib invention that has no connection to reality or God's infallible Word. No scripture passage anywhere in the Bible compares a Pretrib rapture coming of the Lord to a 7 year or 7 day supposed Jewish Wedding tradition. When Christ is united with His bride; it will not be for a 7-day or 7-year consummation; it will be for eternity!

If you want to know when the marriage occurs; you must go to the end of the Tribulation; in Revelation chapter 19; when Jesus returns to the earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords. That is when Scripture teaches the Marriage will occur.

Postribber Tony Warren argues in an article on this issue (Jewish Wedding Customs & the Rapture): “If pretribulationists are right, we would expect the wedding and the feast to commence at the beginning of the tribulation, not after the tribulation as Revelation 19 plainly indicates. If Jesus was referring to heaven as the seven years in the “Chuppah” in John 14:1-3, the bride should have “made herself ready” before the pretribulation rapture (around Rev. 4). And the “marriage of the Lamb” should have occurred at the beginning of the tribulation, and not at its extreme end. The pretribulation scenario has Jesus being intimate with the Bride in the “Chuppah” for seven years before Revelation 19 indicates the wedding occurs!”

Dr. Robert Gundry contends. "If a purported pretrib coming to fetch the church to heaven is supposed to reflect the ancient Semitic custom of a groom's fetching the bride to his home, what is Jesus' taking the church with Him back to earth right after the marriage supper, and for a thousand years, supposed to reflect? An ancient Semitic custom of the groom's taking his bride back to her home to live with her there for a long time? The pretrib reasoning gets itself into a pickle by injecting a marriage custom that isn't even mentioned in the biblical text at hand, and then giving that custom argumentative weight of an allegorical sort but not carrying out the allegory consistently. In fact, our ignorance of ancient Semitic marriage customs exceeds our knowledge. And what knowledge we do have shows considerable variation in these customs."

Joachim Jeremias (an authority on ancient Jewish customs) confirms in The Parables of Jesus: "The mistaken idea has arisen because we possess no connected description of a wedding feast from the time of Jesus, but only modern collections of material which attempt to construct a connected mosaic out of the scattered allusions to be found in the rabbinic literature. There is evidence that these collections of material are incomplete. This is not surprising in view of the situation with regard to the sources; the material is unlimited and widely scattered, and the picture is extraordinarily varied; then as now, wedding customs differed in different districts; moreover, after the destruction of the Temple, under the repeated impact of national disasters, they underwent far reaching restrictions; but above all, the occasional reports which we possess are widely distributed in space and time: in space they come from Palestine and Babylonia, while in time they are spread over many centuries."

In his Sketches of Jewish Social Life, Alfred Edersheim wrote that the custom in Jesus' day was to have the wedding on a Wednesday, allowing the first three days of the week for the bride to prepare herself for her groom's coming. “The marriage followed [the betrothal ritual] after a longer or shorter interval, the limits of which, however, were fixed by law. The ceremony itself consisted in leading the bride into the house of the bridegroom, with certain formalities, mostly dating from very ancient times. Marriage with a maiden was commonly celebrated on a Wednesday afternoon, which allowed the first days of the week for preparation, and enabled the husband, if he had a charge to prefer against the previous chastity of his bride, to make immediate complaint before the local Sanhedrim, which sat every Thursday ... This circumstance enables us, with some certainty, to arrange the date of the events which preceded the marriage in Cana. Inferring from the accompanying festivities that it was the marriage of a maiden, and therefore took place on a Wednesday ... On "the third day" after it, that is, on Wednesday, was the marriage in Cana of Galilee.”

The church has to wait another thousand years. Revelation 19 is about Israel who has waited 2,000 years since the Cross.

Now the church is complaining they have to wait, and inserted themselves into the OT wife position.

 

[Randy Kluth]

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

That was the last day resurrection at the Cross. Nothing about a second coming mentioned.

You think the general resurrection of the Church happened at the Cross??

 

[Randy Kluth]

Then the Restrainer was take away in the first century. That is what causes Satan to be revealed, and unrestrained.

The Restrainer was, I believe, the Roman Empire, along with its 10 heirs, which are 10 as-yet-unknown European states. At some point the Antichrist--not Satan, will be revealed. Apparently you have a different opinion, and that's your prerogative.

 

[The Light]

Like I thought: you do not have a Pretrib rapture in Revelation. You force it in there. It is therefore pointless asking for your 2nd invented rapture, because you don't even have a 1st.

LOL. There are elders in heaven with crowns and kings and priest before the throne. Jesus has come. Simple as that.

You are looking for something that cancels out the Word of God. Not going to happen. He is not going to tell you when He will come. That why believers are told to watch.

Matthew 24
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You obviously cannot find your 7-year trib in Revelation either.

I never said anything about a 7 year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel which is 7 years.

This is looking bad for your doctrine. You have nothing to support Pretrib. It is obviously extra-biblical. I do not have to prove the length of the Amil trib, as it is active and ongoing. I do not claim its duration as you do. The Bible doesn't say.

Empty claim. You don't even understand the order of Revelation.

Is this your 3rd coming and 2nd rapture? Where does it mention the "Church" or a "rapture" here?

It doesn't. That should be a hint for you. It isn't the Church being raptured.

 

[The Light]

You are dodging multiple posts that forbid Pretrib. Pretribs cannot address these because they are watertight.

There is not a single post that prevents pretrib. That is nonsense.

Please feel free to post any scripture that you claim prevents the pretrib rapture and I will prove your error.

The only reason I repeat arguments is because it is impossible to get Pretribbers to address the biblical evidence that forbids their arguments.

Please post any scripture that you claim prevents the pre tribulation rapture. You don't have any.

Why would i reinvent the wheel. Why would I write a new detailed post that is going to be avoided by Pretribs? No chance!

OK. I will read and address your cut and paste material.

I do not see one single argument showing 2 raptures. Your teachers have misled you.

Who are my teachers. There are not many people that understand that there are two raptures. Please name a few possibilities.

 

[The Light]

Not true!

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. The objective Bible student can quickly discern that this name consistently pertains to true believers in the New Testament.

The Church is already in heaven in Rev 5 as they are the kings and priests before throne. But Rev 5 is before the seals are opened & Revelation 5: 8 are prayers of the saints. So this doesn't work.

Rev 8:3-4 are prayers of the saints and not saints. So that doesn't work.

Rev 11 is the judgement of the saints so everything is over, so that doesn't work.

Rev 13:7 and 10 mentions saints but it can't be the Church. The Church is already in heaven in Rev 5 and the saints talked about are the Jews that are the seed of the woman which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 is talking about the Jews. This is the great tribulation period. Church is already in heaven as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Revelation 15:3 is talking about the Jews. They are singing the song of Moses.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Revelation 16:6 is about those that shed the blood of the saints, so that won't work.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Revelation 17:6 is about the woman that is drunken with the blood of the saints. So that won't work.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelation 19:8 is about the saints in heaven at the marriage supper. So that won't work.

Revelation 20:9 Happens after the 1000 years. So that won't work.

Nothing you posted can be about the Church of today being on earth after the seals are opened. There is a reason they are not mentioned as they are already in heaven.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

Already covered Rev 5. As to Rev 14:3-4 those 144,000 are of the twelve tribes.......just like the Word says.

Revelation 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christians alone are “redeemed” through the blood of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13, 4:5. Titus 2:14 and 1 Peter 1:18). The unregenerate have not partook in this life-changing experience.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the 144,000 or the other mentioning of the Jews that was posted.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

Revelation 16 is talking about the martyrs. And we already know that those killed in the great tribulation will be singing the song of Moses as they are of the twelve tribes.

Brethren can be both Jews and Gentiles

I am moving on as nothing you are posting shows the Church on earth during the great tribulation.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

Scanned it at best. If you have anything above that you think is proof of the Church being on earth during the great tribulation I will be happy to address it. Moving on to your other post.

 

[The Light]

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).

Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple – “verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (v2).

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy coming (or parousia), and of the end (or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation) of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the parousia of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ continues in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Matthew 24:35-41 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming (or parousia) of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approachingis coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.” In His reply, Christ confirmed, what the disciples already seem to have rightly comprehended, in their questioning, that His next Coming is His last and only future coming and that it ushers in “the end of the world (or age)”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The coming of the Lord when it's like the days of Noah is referring to the rapture of the Church. Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood just as the Church will likely be in the ark 6 years before the wrath of God. The coming of the Lord that is like the days of Lot will have the Lord coming the very day the wrath of God begins.

This is the second coming seen in Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God
Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Also seen in Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus will return at the end of wrath for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom. When He lands on the earth it is the second advent.

 

[Randy Kluth]

LOL. There are elders in heaven with crowns and kings and priest before the throne. Jesus has come. Simple as that.

The elders may very well be angels that have a role like elders. They may substitute for men, because sometimes angels appear in the form of men. But what they say seems to distance themselves from mankind, even as they stand in for them.

There is no indication that they are in heaven as a result of a Rapture. And if you think that John's being caught up to heaven means the Church went up at that point... It means you will sacrifice hermeneutics to make something say what it isn't saying. You are "adding to the words of this revelation."

You are looking for something that cancels out the Word of God. Not going to happen. He is not going to tell you when He will come. That why believers are told to watch.

I think you misunderstand what Jesus meant by "watch." Jesus was informing his disciples that they aren't being told times and seasons or a precise date for his Coming so that they could focus on what God has called them to do. They keep watch to be alert for any impediments to their mission.

This is all about living responsible lives in light of his coming, and being aware of what might try to make them unready for his Kingdom. Consider the following verses....

Matt 7.15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Matt 24.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
Matt 24.42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
Matt 24.43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
Matt 25.
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’
13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

So does this sound as if Christians simply wait with expectation for Christ to come, or it Jesus saying it is a vanity to try to anticipate his coming, that preparation is ensured only by living for him all the time? People watch out for deceptions, and for things that render them impotent spiritually.

They are not to expect Christ's coming at any time, since we are already told his coming must be from heaven, to destroy the Antichrist and to raise the dead saints. We are simply to focus on today, while maintaining hope for tomorrow.

It is *today* that we prepare and maintain readiness. We prepare by living godly lives. We do not prepare by imminent expectation that Christ could show up today!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Church is already in heaven in Rev 5 as they are the kings and priests before throne. But Rev 5 is before the seals are opened & Revelation 5: 8 are prayers of the saints. So this doesn't work.

You make a big mistake if you think "saints" doesn't apply to Christians after Rev 4. Who do you think the Beast beheads? Who do you think God compliments for their faithfulness in resisting the Beast? The "saints" on these occasions are clearly notable "saints," and not poor souls who "missed the Rapture!"

In my Bible translation I have "God's People." So you think God's People are not Christians? You think 24 elders constitute the "Raptured Church?" 24 elders? I should think that 1) the Church consists of a great multitude of all nations, and 2) if the Church had been caught up to heaven the Scriptures would actually say that?

I am moving on as nothing you are posting shows the Church on earth during the great tribulation.

Scanned it at best. If you have anything above that you think is proof of the Church being on earth during the great tribulation I will be happy to address it. Moving on to your other post.

You completely ignore the fact that Christians are raised from the dead *after* they have been martyred by the Beast. How can you say there is no proof Christians were in the period of Antichrist's reign? I don't get it!

 

[BlessedPeace]

Like I thought: you do not have a Pretrib rapture in Revelation. You force it in there. It is therefore pointless asking for your 2nd invented rapture, because you don't even have a 1st.



You obviously cannot find your 7-year trib in Revelation either. This is looking bad for your doctrine. You have nothing to support Pretrib. It is obviously extra-biblical. I do not have to prove the length of the Amil trib, as it is active and ongoing. I do not claim its duration as you do. The Bible doesn't say.



Is this your 3rd coming and 2nd rapture? Where does it mention the "Church" or a "rapture" here?

You sound like F2F in your style of argument.
Daniel 9 is God dealing with Israel in the time to come. The wrath,tribulation.

Why would Christians,those who recognize the Jewish Messiah Yeshua as Savior,be present? When unbelieving Israel is facing God's wrath.

Christians know
1 Thessalonians 4 very well. The living and the dead in Christ shall meet him in the air.

While chapter 5 tells us, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

It often appears in talks like this that some need it stated directly. "Christians will be raptured..." before it is believed by them.

It is spelled out though. One just has to read it to see it.
Like Yeshua said, it was given to some to understand his parables. Yet,others did not understand because they weren't meant to.

That's God.
He plans things His way.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You sound like F2F in your style of argument.
Daniel 9 is God dealing with Israel in the time to come. The wrath,tribulation.

Why would Christians,those who recognize the Jewish Messiah Yeshua as Savior,be present? When unbelieving Israel is facing God's wrath.

Unbelieving Israel has been facing God's wrath for 2000 years. And obviously, the Church has been present! If you think Israel's great tribulation only starts in the endtimes you haven't been listening. We've had pogroms, holocausts, and centuries of Jewish persecutions. God's punishment has indeed been "great." But it never meant Christians can't be here at the same time they go through these trials.

Christians know
1 Thessalonians 4 very well. The living and the dead in Christ shall meet him in the air.

While chapter 5 tells us, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

In context, this "wrath" is speaking of Eternal Judgment--not the Reign of Antichrist!

It often appears in talks like this that some need it stated directly. "Christians will be raptured..." before it is believed by them.

It is spelled out though. One just has to read it to see it.
Like Yeshua said, it was given to some to understand his parables. Yet,others did not understand because they weren't meant to.

As I've long said, Pretribbers do not rely on the biblical text, but on "private revelation." If you do not rely on explicit statements from Scriptures, then you're trying to speak for the Holy Spirit.

All the cults claim to have "special revelation." Pretribbers are no different.