The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[Taken]

LOL. Years of debating with Premils shows them to be the spiritualists.

What a load .... !

Making up lies does not make your ... LOL years of debate creditable.
Odd you do not know, it actually makes your claims... NOT creditable.

 

[Taken]

Spiritual Israelite said: ↑
If we have the gall to question their beliefs then it seems some of them think it means we're part of a devil worshiping cult. It's unreal.

That is pretty astounding, that you know people’s thoughts, when they SAY no such thing.
And further ASTOUNDING, that you then say, it’s UNREAL.

What was the point of your comment....?
Pretend you are a mind reader, speak your pretense, then claim it’s unreal....AS IF poor you, someone thinks your are a devil worshiping cult?

Fact is;
You are not a mind reader, NO ONE said that BUT YOU, and the poor you, being thought of as a devil worshiping cult......WAS your thought, your words, that you falsely tried to pin on someone else...
Fraudulent on it’s face!


Gaslighter.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, that was silly. And yes, this guy is the most desperate guy I've ever seen on this subject! ;)



Actually, it's common for Amils to want to show how the number "1000" can be used in a symbolic sense. The hope is to prove that it *always* is used in the Bible, which of course flies in the face of legitimate interpretation. Words must be defined by their context, and not by "common use" alone.

Trying to determine that the "thousand" years in Rev 20 is symbolic because of its being used as a figure of speech elsewhere is using an interpretive fallacy. "Thousand" can be used symbolically in one place, and literally in another place. I'm with you--in Rev 20, the Millennium is used in a literal way in a real setting. It is not symbolic.

It is a mystery to me how amils think. I know completely 1,000 years is used euphemistically in Scripture, but the construct of the passage always lets you know! It is almost like to read SCripture as a covenant theology believer or amil you have to suspend all the universal rules of grammar .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Oh, so the following is referring to a literal one thousand generations then? According to your logic, it must be.

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

So, God only keeps His covenant of love for one thousand generations and then His covenant expires? Tough luck to the 1001st generation, I guess, right?

Not according to my logic, but rules of grammar. This is most likely a euphemistic use of 1,000 years based on construct and other passages of Scriptrure dealing with the same subject. but for all we know fro Adam untill eternity arrives for us could be 1,000 generations.

buit even if trhis is a euphemism (which it may well be) it still doesn't warrant taking the 6 occurrences of 1,000 years as symbolic.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yet Amil will not base their point on reality even if it can be proven.

Yes, Amil today are in a more obnoxious place today, in my view. Early Amils gave up on the idea of Israel's restoration quite frankly because the Jews showed no capability of doing so. But in our day, the Jews have formed a new state, and there are Messianic Jewish groups everywhere. The early Amil focus was properly on salvation, without particular emphasis on the Jewish Hope. But today, the focus should be on the inclusiveness of salvation, allowing Jews the opportunity for repentance. My opinion.

The whole point is based on an indefinite period of time which has to be symbolic instead of literal.

The Revelation is filled with symbolism. But it's important to not impose symbolic interpretations on statements not explicitly implied to be such.

If the first 6 days were a literal 24 hr time period, and the Sabbath was 1,000 years, then the 6,000 years since the fall could be compared with a Sabbath day without end. God compared His time of 6 24 hour days with a 7th day lasting 1,000 years to let the earth work out creation.

I personally believe the 6 days of creation were periods of time, attended by the figurative "morning and evening" in order to show that in God's time clock a "day is as a thousand years." It was a set period of time dedicated to accomplishing stated tasks.

But the tasks were of limited duration, indicating that the 7th day of rest was also of limited duration. That indicates the idea of a Millennial rest, rather than an eternal rest, even if eternal rest was the eventual goal.

Modern Amil do not get their doctrine from those same alledged ecf, any more than any other modern day eschatology. Amil today have switched from a future 1,000 years, to the current here and now of the last 1992 years.

The early Chiliasts were certainly not Amil, as PM ludicrously claims, and modern Amils certainly do not get their notion of an eternal Millennial rest from them! The Chiliast view of the Millennial Day Sabbath certainly does *not* provide them with their idea of a current NT period of "rest!" ;)

Sin and Adam's dead corruptible flesh, is still an ongoing phenomenon.

Yes, we are *not* in the Kingdom Age presently. We do not experience sinless paradise, anymore than Amils complain that our Millennium is a sinless paradise. The Millennial Kingdom will, however, be paradise for glorified Christians, and since we will rule over the Millennial earth it will certainly be a much better earth than today! My opinion.

 

[WPM]

It is a mystery to me how amils think. I know completely 1,000 years is used euphemistically in Scripture, but the construct of the passage always lets you know! It is almost like to read SCripture as a covenant theology believer or amil you have to suspend all the universal rules of grammar .

The opposite is actually the truth. Amillennialists lets the rest of Scripture locate and interpret Rev 20. Premil lets Rev 20 locate and interpret the rest of Scripture. They do not force a bias preconceived notion upon the sacred text. Each passage, chapter and book should be approached recognizing its proper sense and setting. That may be hyper-literal, highly-symbolic, hyperbolic, parabolic, poetic or apocalyptic. But the context and ambience of the location should assist us in determining the overall thrust of the text. What is more, a good knowledge of other relevant Scripture, should reinforce what the sense and setting is telling us. That helps us in interpreting the Bible as it presents itself.

General unqualified phrases like “all,” “all nations,” “the quick (or living) and the dead,” “every man,” “every eye,” “every one,” “men,” “man,” “all men everywhere,” “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great,” “all that dwell upon the earth … whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ,” “they that dwell on the earth … whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,” “the world,” “the whole world” and “all the world,” that objective and impartial Bible students acknowledge embrace the whole human race (or the full amount of all the wicked) are redefined and explained away to let Premil fit. If one was to take a precise straightforward interpretation of these phrases, one could only come to conclusion that there are no exclusions here. This shows that the Premil boast that they are literalists is inaccurate.

Premil takes common linguistic terms that are easily understood by the unindoctrinated observer in any language to mean the opposite to what they actually say. For example, Premil does not believe that "first" means first and "last" means last. The English words “first” and “last” are taken from the Greek words protos and eschatos and are widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what they say. The word protos means first, as in the foremost in time, place, order or importance. The word eschatos on the other hand means end, last, farthest and final. It is explicitly clear from their usage, meaning and context in the New Testament that these words are the exact antithesis of each other.

 

[WPM]

Not according to my logic, but rules of grammar. This is most likely a euphemistic use of 1,000 years based on construct and other passages of Scriptrure dealing with the same subject. but for all we know fro Adam untill eternity arrives for us could be 1,000 generations.

buit even if trhis is a euphemism (which it may well be) it still doesn't warrant taking the 6 occurrences of 1,000 years as symbolic.

How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is a mystery to me how amils think. I know completely 1,000 years is used euphemistically in Scripture, but the construct of the passage always lets you know! It is almost like to read SCripture as a covenant theology believer or amil you have to suspend all the universal rules of grammar .

I agree. Amil has been carried on by momentum--not by rational thought. It was a wildly popular view late in the Early Church, because it's like they found Reform Theology. They discovered that Christianity was not just about the Jew, but more about all of mankind.

Well duh. Salvation is for everyone, but that doesn't mean we can just dismiss all that the Prophets said about Israel's ultimate national salvation, nor that we can ignore racial, national, and gender differences. Yes, salvation is not dependent on any of these factors. But neither does it dismiss them as unimportant.

Can you see yourself accepting the fact that family member are important to all parents, but that because this is so, your own family members shouldn't matter to you? Well, God understood that Abraham's descendants were important to him as family members. They are not exclusively important to God, but they are very much important to Abraham, and God recognized this.

History is interesting. God never forgets a thing. The story began in a certain way, and it is coming full circle. God will come back to the Jewish nation and turn it into a Christian nation. I'm sure of that. I hope you believe that too?

 

[WPM]

Yes, Amil today are in a more obnoxious place today, in my view. Early Amils gave up on the idea of Israel's restoration quite frankly because the Jews showed no capability of doing so. But in our day, the Jews have formed a new state, and there are Messianic Jewish groups everywhere. The early Amil focus was properly on salvation, without particular emphasis on the Jewish Hope. But today, the focus should be on the inclusiveness of salvation, allowing Jews the opportunity for repentance. My opinion.



The Revelation is filled with symbolism. But it's important to not impose symbolic interpretations on statements not explicitly implied to be such.



I personally believe the 6 days of creation were periods of time, attended by the figurative "morning and evening" in order to show that in God's time clock a "day is as a thousand years." It was a set period of time dedicated to accomplishing stated tasks.

But the tasks were of limited duration, indicating that the 7th day of rest was also of limited duration. That indicates the idea of a Millennial rest, rather than an eternal rest, even if eternal rest was the eventual goal.



The early Chiliasts were certainly not Amil, as PM ludicrously claims, and modern Amils certainly do not get their notion of an eternal Millennial rest from them! The Chiliast view of the Millennial Day Sabbath certainly does *not* provide them with their idea of a current NT period of "rest!" ;)



Yes, we are *not* in the Kingdom Age presently. We do not experience sinless paradise, anymore than Amils complain that our Millennium is a sinless paradise. The Millennial Kingdom will, however, be paradise for glorified Christians, and since we will rule over the Millennial earth it will certainly be a much better earth than today! My opinion.

It is obvious that you realize you have zero support from the ECFs right up until AD 240. Your failure to present one single quote to support all the main tenets of Premil apart from one (a future thousand years, albeit Chiliasts believed it will be a perfect age, unlike your rerun of our corrupt age) is damning for your beliefs. I will continue to present the avoided questions which expose your faulty claims:

1. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described sin existing on a future millennial earth?
2. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described corruption existing on a future millennial earth?
3. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described the wicked existing on a future millennial earth?
4. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described mortals existing on a future millennial earth?
5. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described decay existing on a future millennial earth?
6. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described the curse existing on a future millennial earth?
7. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described Satan existing on a future earth?
8. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium which involved the elevation of natural Israel above all other ethnic groups as Premil does?
9. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving a renewal of the Jewish sacrifice system as Premil does?
10.Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving carnal pleasure like procreating in the age to come as Premil does?
11.Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the binding of Satan for 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
12.Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
13.Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as Premil does?
14.Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that taught that Jesus would be reigning over His enemies for 1,000 years upon David’s throne?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The term "a thousand" is used in most languages in a general figurative sense to represent a large number or a large indefinite period. Certain common numbers are frequently used in Scripture as valuable symbols to represent particular divine truths or ideas; a thousand and ten thousand are two such numbers. They are employed as familiar figures to impress deep spiritual principles in a distinctly comprehendible and identifiable way. It is not necessarily the exact numerical size of the figure outlined that is important but the spiritual idea that it represents. In fact, English dictionaries recognize the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language.

Well if it is in most languages- give me some modern examples where it is symbolic If I say I have a thousand dollars in my wallet, does that means something else?

Comprehendible and identifiable way? and what might those spiritual truths may be that God could not just simply say?

And yes in English just like in Hebrew and Greek we can use thousand in an informal and symbolic way. When we say thousands, it is only because we do not have an exact count but know that there are at least 1,000 of whatever is mentioned. that is why a gathering on the national mall is usually expressed in tens of thousands because there is not an exact count!

But you in your rush to allegorize everything fail to remember that one thousand is also an exact number with an exact value and also is used literally.

Premils are so blinkered by what they have been taught that they cannot see the figurative import of a thousand in Scripture. To accept that would instantly blow their beliefs out of the water. 10, 100, 1,000 and 10,000 are often used as round figures in Scripture to describe greater truths. We do the same today.

well having taken biblical numerology in bible college I know the significance of many numbers in SCripture. so using your logic, then the 12 apostles may not have been 12 at all. but as in biblical numerology it may have been symbolic to represent Gods government and perfection!

Yes they are often used as round numbers, but they are also used literally because a literal count i known.

This figure is also used to describe a long indeterminate period of power and government. Hitler boasted that the Third Reich would last a thousand years. The Nazi Party used the terms Drittes Reich and Tausendjähriges Reich (Thousand-Year Reich) to describe the rule, power and vision of the Fascist kingdom. It wasn’t that Hitler limited his wicked dream to that period, but that it symbolically represented a long period of unparalleled supremacy.

I can see you are not a student of history. Hitler was trying to establish

the millenial kingdom of SCripture with He as messiah. The german kids even sang about Hitler as Savior and the Reich as Gods kingdom on earth! So he was using it in a literal sense.

but with all your pushing the symbolic use, you still avoid the simple fact that 1,000 is used literally as well See I do not deny the symbolic, but you seem to push the literal into oblivion.

Churchill also infamously said of the victory of the war, “if we fail, the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say, ‘This was their finest hour’” (Churchill in his speech on June 18, 1940).

and he was sayhing IF,IF, IF England lasted 1,000 years, no reason to doubt he meant that literally, though unknown. That would be like me saying, if I got to live to be 1,000 years old, I mean that literally. I know enough to say to a very long age like hundreds (literal bTW).

People often mistakenly concentrate upon the actual figure revealed rather than what that figure represents. One hundred and forty and four thousand on the other hand, whilst rarely used (being found only in the deeply symbolic book of Revelation), is similarly used, only in an increased manner to impress a number that is completely unfathomable by human capability. The figure of one hundred and forty and four thousand should be viewed in relation to the biblical use of a thousand representing vastness and 12 representing authority.

Your abuse of Scripture is exactly like teh cults! You have become so inculcated into symbolizing so much, you can't see the forest for teh trees. The 144,000 is 144,000. god went to great lengths to define how that group would be composed. Now this may come as a shock to you but God knows how to count and God also knows how to describe a vast number!

Hebrews 11:12
Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

and right after God numbers the Jews to be sealed to serve He said this:

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Whoops! Seems like God knows how to use language to describe a number incomprohensible to man.

Few objective onlookers will surely dispute that “a thousand” is very loosely interpreted in much of the Bible’s literature. It is only the blinkered who must disagree on this figurative statement.

Well I know 1,000 is used symbolically in several places.
But what galls you is that God would dare use that very same number 6 times in a literal sense!

But as you believe this 1,000 symbolic years are happening now please answer the following questions:

When did the first resurrection take place. For it must happen before this symbolic thousand years.

Who is the beast as those resurrected refused his mark and were beheaded.

What was this mark.

Who was the false prophet who ordered all to take th emark.

Did this occur before Jesus came to earth?

When do you think this symbolic 1,000 years began?

Please let us focus on these questions for now.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The opposite is actually the truth. Amillennialists lets the rest of Scripture locate and interpret Rev 20. Premil lets Rev 20 locate and interpret the rest of Scripture. They do not force a bias preconceived notion upon the sacred text. Each passage, chapter and book should be approached recognizing its proper sense and setting. That may be hyper-literal, highly-symbolic, hyperbolic, parabolic, poetic or apocalyptic. But the context and ambience of the location should assist us in determining the overall thrust of the text. What is more, a good knowledge of other relevant Scripture, should reinforce what the sense and setting is telling us. That helps us in interpreting the Bible as it presents itself.

Another lie from your pen?

YOu have failed to cite on eexample of the other slanders you post about pre-mils. Will this simply be another piece of written manure from you that you refuse to show who does what you accuse?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

Are we going to have to do this with every number in Scripture?

Bu9t let me tell it is literal. Why? Because the word hour (hora) while primarily meaning 60 minutes, in koine greek is also used to denote a time frame or season. So yes they rule with the antichrist for a season.

Next one? Maybe you should check the Greek first before trying to trip me up. this one was too easy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is obvious that you realize you have zero support from the ECFs right up until AD 240.

Your responses and complaints are no better than a grade school argument. "Yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't." If all you want to do is respond by copying and pasting the same things, without answering a single point, you're wasting your time. And you're showing the poverty of your arguments.

I've showed you in this thread the early Chiliasts were *not* Amil! ;)
I've showed you IRENAEUS believed not just in the Millennium, but also in the fact Satan will be bound at the 2nd Coming, when the Millennial Age begins. This is well within your time frame.
I've showed you that the heretical Chiliasts were very different from Modern Premils inasmuch as they were heterodox, and the Modern Premils are orthodox, and they did not view common beliefs in the same way, indicating that Premils was not derived from a heretical brand of Chiliasm.

But you just continue to copy and paste, showing the bankrupt state of your arguments, which consist mainly of insults. It amazes me that when you provoke defensive reactions from me, you complain bitterly that I'm being mean to you. ;) Get over it, and be a man! Better yet, learn to practice Christ's love, and stop emulating the old angry men who fought this battle in such harsh tones.

 

[WPM]

Your responses and complaints are no better than a grade school argument. "Yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't." If all you want to do is respond by copying and pasting the same things, without answering a single point, you're wasting your time. And you're showing the poverty of your arguments.

I've showed you in this thread the early Chiliasts were *not* Amil! ;)
I've showed you IRENAEUS believed not just in the Millennium, but also in the fact Satan will be bound at the 2nd Coming, when the Millennial Age begins. This is well within your time frame.
I've showed you that the heretical Chiliasts were very different from Modern Premils inasmuch as they were heterodox, and the Modern Premils are orthodox, and they did not view common beliefs in the same way, indicating that Premils was not derived from a heretical brand of Chiliasm.

But you just continue to copy and paste, showing the bankrupt state of your arguments, which consist mainly of insults. It amazes me that when you provoke defensive reactions from me, you complain bitterly that I'm being mean to you. ;) Get over it, and be a man! Better yet, learn to practice Christ's love, and stop emulating the old angry men who fought this battle in such harsh tones.

The only thing that you have showed on this thread so far is your own ignorance of the subject. You have failed to prove any of your claims. You imagine if you say something over and over again then it becomes a fact. Well that is not the way it works. That is a severe delusion. You must provide historic data. You do the same with Scripture. You make wild unsubstantiated claims without supporting it with hard Scripture. Up untill now you have nothing to bring to the table. You know it. The reader knows it. That is why you have turned to ad hominem. That seems to be your default position when you are frustrated. Until you stop making false claims I will keep repeating these avoided questions.

 

[WPM]

Are we going to have to do this with every number in Scripture?

Bu9t let me tell it is literal. Why? Because the word hour (hora) while primarily meaning 60 minutes, in koine greek is also used to denote a time frame or season. So yes they rule with the antichrist for a season.

Next one? Maybe you should check the Greek first before trying to trip me up. this one was too easy.

It doesn't say "hour" which can be interpreted figuratively. It says "one hour." Now answer the question please.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The only thing that you have showed on this thread so far is your own ignorance of the subject. You have failed to prove any of your claims. You imagine if you say something over and over again then it becomes a fact. Well that is not the way it works. That is a severe delusion. You must provide historic data. You do the same with Scripture. You make wild unsubstantiated claims without supporting it with hard Scripture. Up untill now you have nothing to bring to the table. You know it. The reader knows it.

You are gas-lighting. And that is your MO. "You know it. Everybody knows it." If you really believe this, why are you so insistent that everybody agrees with it? ;)

Until you stop making false claims I will keep repeating these avoided questions.

Suit yourself. I should think people stopped reading your copy and pastes a long, long time ago. I actually did try to answer them, and this is what I get. Complaints about treating you badly, and claims that I never answered you, and suggestions that everyone agrees with you and knows how wrong I am. ;) Grow up!

 

[WPM]

You are gas-lighting. And that is your MO. "You know it. Everybody knows it." If you really believe this, why are you so insistent that everybody agrees with it? ;)



Suit yourself. I should think people stopped reading your copy and pastes a long, long time ago. I actually did try to answer them, and this is what I get. Complaints about treating you badly, and claims that I never answered you, and suggestions that everyone agrees with you and knows how wrong I am. ;) Grow up!

When have i ever said everyone agrees with me? That is another lie. How about dealing with the issues above that you have ducked around for years? The reader doesn't need to look too far back to see multiple posts that have been avoided. That is how you function. Sadly, ad hominem is where you are most at home. If you persist in your personal attacks i am placing you on ignore, and will recommend the same to my Amil brethren.

 

[Taken]

So, @Paul Malcomson .... Can you identify the Scripture of when Jesus returns to earth?

Post post # 736
Repeated in post # 740

To confusing of a question?
Did you answer?
No

 

[WPM]

Premillennialism, is the belief that Jesus will return to Earth before the millennium, thousand year reign.

Rev 6
[1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Seems to me the Tribulation of God has begun...

So, @Paul Malcomson .... Can you identify the Scripture of when Jesus returns to earth?

I did answer it in #753.

 

[WPM]

Except the church does not experience direct tribulation come from God, that tribulation is for the unsaved unbelieving world.
What you calling tribulation is not a proper use of the word. Time of tribulation is not for the church. In fact the kingdom of the Beast world government system yet to come, kills all who will not worship the beast or his image. Their death is not tribulation come from God. But the people who belong to the Beast, who are marked with his name, do experience tribulation come from God.

Of course, there will be an intensification of tribulation before the one final future coming of Jesus Christ.