You reinforce Point 6 on the other tread: Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbids their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”
The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.
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You reinforce Point 6 on the other tread: Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbids their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”
Randy Kluth
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Thayer's Greek Lexicon
Placed in the category of...
4. the earth as a whole, the world (Latinterrarumorbis);
a. the earth as opposed to the heavens: Matthew 5:18, 35; Matthew 6:10; Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 2:14; John 12:32; Acts 2:19; Acts 4:24; 2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 13; Revelation 21:1; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the things and beings that are on the earth, Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:16 (T WH omit; L Tr brackets τά); involving a suggestion of mutability, frailty, infirmity, alike in thought and in action, Matthew 6:19; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς (equivalent to τά ἐπίγεια, Philippians 3:19) terrestrial goods, pleasures, honors, Colossians 3:2 (opposed to τά ἄνω); τά μέλη ὑμῶν τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the members of your earthly body, as it were the abode and instruments of corrupt desires, Colossians 3:5; ὁ ὤν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ... λαλεῖ (in contrast with Christ as having come from heaven) he who is of earthly (human) origin, has an earthly nature, and speaks as his earthly origin and nature prompt, John 3:31.
as opposed to...
b. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
It seems Thayer looks at 2 Peter 3.10 not as the habitation of all men and animals, but rather, as the physical constitution of material things around us. That is, things that are fragile around us can be destroyed when human sin is entered into the equation--not necessarily *all* material things.
Randy Kluth
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Actually no. Whether you are Amill or Premill, you will elect to assign "literal" to where you think context demands it, and "symbolic" to where you think context demands it. Each party may think the other one is picking and choosing.
I view you as wanting to believe in the *literal* destruction of the universe at Christ's Coming. But you pick and choose by rejecting the *literal* reference to a Millennial Age in Rev 20.
On the other hand, you think I want to believe in a *literal* Millennial Age in Rev 20, and then pick and choose by rejecting a *literal* reference to the destruction of the universe.
Truth7t7
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Didn't that sound like a fairy tale dream?
Then I woke up to reality, smiles!
Of course it was in jest
For years, Premils have boasted that they are the true literalists. They have, in turn, criticized Amils, and condemned them for spiritualizing. Ironically, this criticism has arisen due to the figurative approach Amils have to the most symbolic book in the Bible - Revelation. Of course, that is not true. I have shown for quite some time that the opposite is actually true. Premils spiritualize what is literal and literalize what is spiritual. Above is a case-in-point. Basically, it seems, Revelation should be taken absolutely literal but the countless literal passages throughout Scripture do not mean what they say. What is literal? What is spiritual? The actual wording, the context and repeated teaching of Scripture show us what is so.
From my experience, Premil is not governed by context of the narrative but by appalling partisan hermeneutics. It is what will allow Premil to fit. This is why Premil should be rejected. Anything that exposes the belief is rejected or spiritualized in order to fit Premil. Let me illustrate.
Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”
This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind. This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!
Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premil has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.
Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
All these refer in the one single final Coming of Christ and all show that event to be climactic. The detail they teach interweaves to give us a vivid picture of the end.
2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
How possibly could the wicked survive the second coming and escape the universal conflagration and wholesale destruction? Premillennialists are forced to dilute the nature of the devastation, localize its extent to a particular region of the globe or spiritualize away the destruction of the wicked completely as a non-literal abstract allegory.
What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldn't wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.
Truth7t7
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Can't have a "Literal" Millennial Kingdom on earth, where Jews are ruling in this physical world from Jerusalem "The Jewish Hope", if Revelation 20:1-6 is100% in the spiritual realm, no Kingdom on this Earth or mortal humans are seen, "None"!
A Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a fabricated fairy tale of man, its that simple!
It's not literal to imply that the church and Israel are the same in Scripture...............
Of course, Premils have to limit the destruction that occurs at the coming of Christ in 2 Peter 3 in order to explain away this explicit text. Some try to assign a limited localized extent to the devastation; others try to restrict it to the land or ground above water. They do this by diluting down the meaning of the references to “heavens” and “earth” (ouranos and gē) and especially in regard to the Greek word gē translated earth. They contend we should view this word as ground, land or soil (or the outer surface) of the earth, not necessarily the whole globe. What is more, they then conveniently, and without any textual warrant, localize the judgment in order to facilitate a limited destruction to support their false teaching. Ouranos they say alludes to a part of the atmosphere.
With this latter approach there are many major difficulties. The most notable is the fact that the Holy Spirit uses these two words (ouranos and gē) consistently in the Word to describe the “heavens” and “earth.” A further significant inconsistency arrives when you arrive at Revelation 20 – the main Premil proof text. ouranos and gē are used at the end of Revelation 20 to described the destruction of the heavens and the earth. Every Premil scholar that addresses this much-debated chapter insists on a literal interpretation of the same. There is no thought that these two words refer to just a part of the atmosphere and or a part of the earth as some Premils suggest. The heavens and earth (ouranos and gē) come to an end. Of course this correlates beautifully with 2 Peter 3, giving us another picture of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Randy Kluth
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I limit the destruction of the universe for the reasons given--I'm not explaining it away. I actually think your universal sense of destruction flies in the face of Scriptures, which say "the earth is forever." And so, finding the language to be applicable on a more local level makes good sense to me, in the absence of any other explanation.
You, on the other hand, wish to stick with a complete dissolution of the universe. That's okay--you pick your poison. You have to explain away a literal "Millennium" mentioned in Rev 20. And you do this simply by saying, "You don't find the word "Millennium" anywhere else in Scriptures!"
That isn't a problem with me. "Heavens and earth" refer to what is on the ground and what is above the ground, and not necessarily "the universe!" We in the modern world find it to be a problem only because we're educated in science, and understand astronomy. We think of the "earth" as a planet, and the "heavens" as the entire universe.
But ancient peoples used language describing their own perspective--not the modern perspective. "Heaven and earth" was the realm where they lived. When flames rise, the sky appears to be on fire. But the practical result of a fire is that material things are shown to be temporal and subject to destruction. Sinful Man loses his temporal possessions as a judgment, whereas Spiritual Man is able to regain what he loses in death through the resurrection.
I don't find that to be a problem at all.
Rev 20.11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
This is the condition all men find themselves in at death. Wherever they live, they are unable to hold on to their material realities. As I said, the righteous will regain them in the resurrection.
Why are you including the material following 2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 13; ?
The applicability of the set of Scriptures ending with Revelation 21:1; is to their definition, which is:
a. the earth as opposed to the heavens:
The definitions following 2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 13; which begin with "τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the things and beings that are on the earth," are not applicable to it.
"Land" does not appear in the definition "a. the earth as opposed to the heavens:"
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Randy Kluth
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I provided the entire paragraph so as not to be overly "selective." I was giving you the entire context.
Yes, the land as opposed to the sky.
I disagree. The things that belong to the region are part and parcel with the region. Possessions of the judged are actually going to be destroyed at Armageddon. It may be a nuclear war.
The earth is the same thing as "land."
HERE
gé: the earth, land
No. If so, 2 Peter 3:10 would appear in category 1, 3, or 5.
It doesn't. It appears in category 4a.
Earth. Not land.
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You keep saying things like this but refuse to address explicit passages that talk about the removal and replacement of the old earth with a new earth.
Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
Jesus says “Heaven and earth shall pass away" you say "no, that will not happen Jesus, i know better."
2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
Peter says “the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved," you say "no, that will not happen Peter, i know better."
Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”
John says “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away," you say "no, that will not happen John, i know better."
I'm afraid, Amils go with Jesus, Peter and John here rather than Randy.
So this corrupt decaying earth will just keep on dying and decaying for all eternity in your estimation?
A careful study of the Greek words ouranos and gē mentioned in 2 Peter 3, which some Premils are forced to redefine, shows your interpretation to be in error. 59 times in the New Testament “heaven” and “earth” are found together in the same passage describing exactly what the outside of the box says – what most ordinary people would understand as the “heaven” and “earth.” Interestingly in every case the two Greek words ouranos and gē are employed to describe the heavenly realm and the globe of the earth. Philippians 2:10 is the only slight variation, although it is only a technical difference, where a literal reading of the text should read ‘earthly’ (epigeios) and ‘heavenly’ (epouranios). However, both significantly were derived from the same two repeated Greek words used elsewhere to describe “heaven” and “earth” – ouranos and gē. What is more, of the 6 references to “heavens” (plural) and “earth” all use these two same Greek words.
Truth7t7
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The Very Reason Why You And Your Eschatology Can't Be Taken Seriously, "In Love"
(Randy's Zionism) "The Jewish Hope", A Millennial Kingdom On Earth, Israel Restored!
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation
This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ
(Behold, I Make All Things New)
2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
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And why do people bring poor arguments? Oftentimes, because they lack sound arguments.
Much love!
Truth7t7
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As post #98 above clearly explains, this existing heavens and earth will be dissolved to its elements on "The Day Of The Lord"
It's not just 2 Peter 3:10, it's a slew of scripture that you deny as literal destruction
The end justifies the means, and you have a pre-determined bias to maintain a "Zionist" (The Jewish Hope), (A Millennial Kingdom) On This Earth, (Israel Restored)!
Focus on your "Zionist Dream", reject and deny biblical reality, it's that simple
Jesus Is The Lord
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