That is simply not true, and you know it.
No, Paul--I don't "know it!" I wouldn't be discussing these things if I already "knew it." ;)
The early Chiliasts like Amils past and present saw Christ ushering a new perfect glorified state devoid of all corruption.
Let me stop you right there. All Christians believe this, Amils and Premils. So there is nothing particularly "Amil" about the belief that Christ's Coming will usher in a great new world, replete with glorified, perfect Christians and a sinful world tamed by Christian rule and domination.
That is what these patristic testimonies described. No where did they describe sin and sinners, deceit and deception, dying in crying, disease and decay, Satan and his minions, war and terror in the age to come. Only the glorified saints were qualified to inherit the new earth. This is all classic Amillennialism, and anti-Premil. I have showed you multiple quotes to support this.
Again, this is an argument from silence. Not mentioning sin, deceit, and dying is not an argument that they no longer exist. It is evidence that it wasn't important to be discussed.
It is relevant that the emphasis was on the opposite, the reality of incorruption and blessedfness. But as above, Premils believe in this too, albeit in a different way. I believe, as a Premil, that Christ's Coming will usher in incorruption for the saints who are glorified, and blessedness on earth when Christ tames the sinful world. Why then would I emphasize sin, deceit, and dying, if these things are being kept in check, even if still present to some degree?
The burden of proof is with you to show all the classic ingredients that mark the Premil age to come like the continuation of sin, sinners, mortals, sexual intercourse, procreation, marriage, decay, the curse, corruption, the elevation of natural Israel above all other ethnic groups a renewal of the Jewish sacrifice system, carnal pleasure like procreating in the age to come, the binding of Satan for 1,000 years+ after the second coming, Christ reigning in Jerusalem over His enemies for 1,000 years upon David’s throne, the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming, the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium, being advocated by the early Chiliasts. It is simply not there! If I am wrong, bring your evidence to the table. So far, you have brought nothing.
I'll bring you what I've brought for years. The Jewish Hope is presented in the OT Prophets, and acknowledged as such by both Jews and Premil Christians. As I said, Jesus and Paul both believed in the Jewish Hope.
Jesus spoke of the great regathering of Jews in his Olivet Discourse--he was at that time still speaking under the OT to Jews. And later, in Acts 1.7 he spoke to his apostles of the need to let God determine the time of the restoration of Israel.
Paul spoke of the salvation of "all Israel" in Rom 11. It may be disputable for some, but once again, this is what I'm "bringing to the table" as evidence for Christian belief in the "Jewish Hope."
Again, Chiliasts should not be expected to speak of sin, deceit, and death in a world they believe will be tamed by Christ at his Coming. So why do you want evidence that they believe in such? They are not trying to prove that humans are still mortal or have the Sin Nature, since this is assumed as long as the world continues, up until the final judgment.
What they are rather trying to prove is that Christ's reign will begin at his Coming, leading to the complete judgment of Satan at Antichrist's destruction. The Chiliasts, therefore, are not seeking to prove the continuation of sin, but rather, the defeat of Satan's rule over the earth. These are contrary concerns. You are seeking proof of something the Chiliasts had no concern to prove.
The primitive Chiliasts believed that the millennial earth ushered in at the appearing of Christ would be fully regenerated and therefore be perfect and pristine. Irenaeus is crystal clear in his idea of the age to come. To him it is totally purged of all the ugliness of the bondage of corruption. There would therefore be no more death or decay. The wicked and all wickedness were expected to be excluded from it. He testified:
Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature (capere Deum) (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32)
Irenaeus enlarges:
The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead; when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: “The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me. In like manner [the Lord declared] that ... all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 33:3).
Elsewhere he states:
For then there shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragment L).
Irenaeus saw the removal of corruption and the introduction of incorruption as occurring at the coming of Christ. He views a future millennial kingdom as the start of incorruption. He backs this up by demonstrating that death and the devil are destroyed at this climactic event. This cuts across modern-day Premillennialism...
Irenaeus definitely anticipates the arrival of a perfect new earth after Jesus returns. The curse is gone.
These quotes are fine, and may or may not apply to my line of argument. Again, I'm saying that I and Premils believe that Christ comes to rule with his glorified people, who have been resurrected from the dead and now enjoy a sinless, incorruptible life. The blessed condition you quote from Irenaeus indicates that *glorified Christians* will see this blessedness, and not necessarily the entire earth and mortal men.
There is no indication he believes, in these quotes, that all men are now made immortal and therefore blessed. As far as I know, these references indicate only that glorified saints will enjoy the blessings of incorruptibility.
The earth, too, will be different because the saints will *rule,* as Irenaeus stated above. That could mean that sinful humanity is now penned in, and kept from waging war against godly nations, causing a measure of peace to reign on earth, which is, again, another kind of state of blessedness. Could the Chiliasts be thinking of this?
So it boils down to, are there statements to the effect that the Chiliasts believed that mortality was completely removed at Christ's return, and that Christians rule over nobody?
Irenaeus: ...the predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead...
Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.
Matt 19.28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
