The False One Who Makes the 7 Year Covenant of Daniel 9

[jeffweeder]

"cov" is your abbrev (abbreviation) of "covenant"? Don't want to have any misunderstanding...

Hi
Yes. I get lazy.

 

[robert derrick]

Here I will show you the line upon line flow description from the Book of Daniel about the coming false one which Lord Jesus pointed to in His Olivet discourse. In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus warned about the placing of the "abomination of desolation". Daniel 11 DEFINES what that is, and I'm going to show those interested...

I like it much, well done. Especially the part of the last antichrist's power is ministerial and spiritual in nature, not national.

Dan 11:21-39
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

After the raiser of taxes has ended, this "vile person" will stand up in his estate. He will come to power using peace and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

True. He is first given a greatly persuasive mouth in Rev 13. Then his following beast will be given powers of Satan to do lying wonders in sight of people.

This is pointing to his becoming king in Jerusalem.

Since the people of Daniel and David and Abraham are now only Christians. He will be a Christian leader, converting other Christians and Jews to his own false Christian gospel.

Rising up over unbelieving Jews has nothing to do with the prophecy of the last great antichrist and false apostle on earth, except to convert them to a false gospel of Christ

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Unbelieving Jews preaching the Jews religion today, has nothing to do with the children of Daniel's people, nor Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob. They are not perverting the gospel of Christ, as false antichrists, but are just doing the same ol' same ol', since they had Jesus crucified to have their own nation on earth for themselves:

If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

I believe he will be a Syrian born Jew converting to Christ, until he departs Jesus' gospel to preach his own brand for his onw rise to power over the churches of God.

 

[covenantee]

I like it much, well done. Especially the part of the last antichrist's power is ministerial and spiritual in nature, not national.



True. He is first given a greatly persuasive mouth in Rev 13. Then his following beast will be given powers of Satan to do lying wonders in sight of people.


Since the people of Daniel and David and Abraham are now only Christians. He will be a Christian leader, converting other Christians and Jews to his own false Christian gospel.

Rising up over unbelieving Jews has nothing to do with the prophecy of the last great antichrist and false apostle on earth, except to convert them to a false gospel of Christ

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Unbelieving Jews preaching the Jews religion today, has nothing to do with the children of Daniel's people, nor Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob. They are not perverting the gospel of Christ, as false antichrists, but are just doing the same ol' same ol', since they had Jesus crucified to have their own nation on earth for themselves:

If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

I believe he will be a Syrian born Jew converting to Christ, until he departs Jesus' gospel to preach his own brand for his onw rise to power over the churches of God.

What are you doing here? Hebrews 10:9 is still awaiting the answers that you reneged on.

 

[robert derrick]

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Do you recall that Daniel 9:26 said the end will be with a flood? The idea about waters as a flood out of the serpent's mouth is also used in Revelation 12:15-16, which is about Satan's final deception for the end of this present world, i.e., great tribulation timing.

So far so good.

He will also have converts of kings doing his pastoral bidding with force of law, including executions.

Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

This "prince of the covenant" will be the one he makes the following "league" with...

This prince being a false one, as though he were a prince with the King in Ezekiel 40.

A false christ with his own false prince. The second beast that is a prophet, prophesying for him.

23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up,

The first beast rises from the sea, and the second from the earth, and both are false sheep and lambs in wolves' clothing, and speak as a dragon.

and shall become strong with a small people.

This is the nature of cults. They begin with the fanatical core, completely sold out to the leader. They then attract others by their zeal, but are mostly 'hangers on'.

This "small people" also represents those in Jerusalem he will make that "league" with, a small group in power in Jerusalem that will ally with him. That "league" is the "covenant" made in Daniel 9:27. These events by this "vile person" defines those events of Daniel 9:27.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The greatest of the worst of antichrists ever, and most destructive to the faith of God.

Greater and more destructive than Nimrod himself.

Some try to say this "vile person" prophecy was fulfilled in 165 B.C. by Antiochus Epiphanes. The reality is that Antiochus took Jerusalem by force with an army. But this one here takes the kingdom using peace.

True.

This "vile person" has not come yet today.

The fullness of the prophecy has not come to pass. Similar but less vile antichrists already coming, are just warm ups for him.

This prophecy is even pointing to how this "vile person" will peacefully be setup as king by leaders in Jerusalem.

25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

After the stir with the king of the south, this "vile person" shall return to Jerusalem, and his heart will be against the "holy covenant". What covenant? The old covenant.

He will be a Christian NT leader, that will also use OT law to seduce Jews into becoming Judaizers again.

This last great antichrist knows the prophecies of the Lord's Millennium on earth, and he will be setting himself up as Christ coming again.

He will also make fire come down from heaven, as some say the Lord will do at His second coming.

In order for the "abomination of desolation" idol prophecy to occur, a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem must be present with animal sacrifices going on. This is the type of "holy covenant" going on at this point.

True. The temple will be destroyed by the Lord at His return, and He will build His own Millennial temple in it's place.

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Both Christians corrupting the new and Jews corrupting the old: the cursed gospel of that false apostle and prophet will gather them all together in one great mother of a bad ministry.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

That "vile person" will have indignation against the "holy covenant", revealing what? It reveals that all along he is against the old covenant worship, but only allows it for a time for political reasons.

Very perceptive and true; however, I believe antichrists and false cult leaders begin as sincere ministers of Jesus Christ, but then are led astray by the allurements of power over God's people, and profiting from their services, gifts, tithes, and offerings.

There is a transformation time, when sincere good ministers transform themselves into dishonest corrupt apostles. They depart from the apostles' doctrine of Christ, and begin to give only lip-service to the truth. More and more they begin to feed in their own traditions, commandments, and services, that dominate and spoil the sheep, rather than build them up with the Head, Jesus Christ.

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand.

Not only does he hate that holy covenant, but so does that false Jew leadership that is working with him.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

There it is, the prophecy given in the Daniel 9:27 verse that the false one would come and make a covenant for "one week" (symbolic for 7 years), and then in the middle of the "one week" will end the daily sacrifices, and instead place an abomination idol inside the temple in false worship instead.

True. No more appearance and games. There is always a time when every false leader repents, or crosses the line into open cultism: they have made themselves the head of their own body of believers, that any objective observer can plainly see.

But them sold out to his leadership, remain wilfully blind and loyal to him only. They also want to rise up like him for a piece of the pie.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Like the 'board' members of an organization of churches, that owe all their power, profit, and loyalty to him that was there first.

They are a bunch of covetous ministerial tin horns.

That is the "abomination of desolation" event Lord Jesus warned for the very end of this world in Jerusalem.

Rather than ministering in Christ's stead, the great pastor becomes head of the body, instead of Jesus Christ,

Jesus told His servants in Judea at that time of the END to flee Judea, and for those in Christ in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem at that time (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21). Those Signs Jesus gave are the Seals of Revelation 6

True, which have been repeating themselves many times with lesser antichrists, and on smaller scales.

 

[robert derrick]

So make no mistake, the Daniel 9:27 prophecy is hard-linked to the prophecy in Daniel 11 about the "vile person" and the placing of the "abomination that maketh desolate". That is why Daniel 11:31 tells us that event will "... pollute the sanctuary of strength...". The desolation is about 'spiritual' desolation inside the temple with the setting up of an idol abomination, i.e., the "image of the beast" of Rev.13.

Perfectly true.

No antichrist departing from the apostles' doctrine and gospel, that Paul preached, is seeking national power. But rather he seeks a far greater seductive power: that of the ministerial and spiritual leader over his own people, so that his own word is believed and obeyed, as proceeding from the mouth of God Himself.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is ministerially first in the temple and body of Christ, and may well also be in a Christian-Jewish temple in Jeruslaem, with animal sacrifices: he will be coming as the false christ and king of the Lord's Millennium on earth.

In the end, he sets aside Scripture of God, and any pretence of ministering for the true God, to preach his own gospel with power of his own coming.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

I believe the horns, like the Mother of harlots, are every Jewish fable and Christian heresy ever risen up in the Jews and Christian religions, that this last great mouth is able to use effectively for his own rise and godhead.

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

That above is about us during that final "great tribulation".

True. It is the final end of great tribulation on earth against the saints, which began with Cain 'talking with' and then slaying righteous Abel.

After the first bodily resurrection of all saints since Abel, at the Lord second coming, it will then be His turn at bat.

Some of us will be delivered up for Christ to give a Witness.

As Scripture says, all saints past, present, and future should be waiting to see, and faint not.

Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

That exalting himself above every god is what Apostle Paul was warning about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, about the "man of sin". That is the beast king of Revelation 17, the one that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition.

As well as the fallen star from God's ministry, with key to unlock that pit in the first place, and then rise again in his own gospel.

The greatest pool sharks, are those who are so good, that they can miss convincingly.

So it is with the greatest ministerial wolves, who know the truth of Scripture so well, they can purposely miss, to even deceive the elect.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Why would "the God of his fathers" be mentioned there about that coming false one? It will because the prophecy in the prophets about Messiah requires that he descend from the tribe of Judah to be king over the Jews. He will be a fake though, those who set him up as king will make that claim of his birthright.

Could be the Syrian born Jew claims to be of the tribe of Judah.

The Scripture also shows, that he will be outwardly righteous and near perfect of manner, so that he won't even need to hide any hypocrisies of the flesh in secret.

He's not a piker that blows his power away by silly adulteries, thefts, etc... Outwardly, he will be as holiness as any holiness Pentecost.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
KJV

Antiochus IV in 165 did that very thing in Jerusalem with setting up an altar inside the temple and placing an idol to Zeus in false worship, demanding that all bow to it. For the end of this world, for this event in Daniel 11, it will be the false-Messiah setting up the "image of the beast" for the whole world to worship.

Almost. The saints refusing his seductions and persecutions, will be purified by such tribulation, which is why the Lord has allowed it on earth, since Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden:

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

 

[covenantee]

Perfectly true.

No antichrist departing from the apostles' doctrine and gospel, that Paul preached, is seeking national power. But rather he seeks a far greater seductive power: that of the ministerial and spiritual leader over his own people, so that his own word is believed and obeyed, as proceeding from the mouth of God Himself.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is ministerially first in the temple and body of Christ, and may well also be in a Christian-Jewish temple in Jeruslaem, with animal sacrifices: he will be coming as the false christ and king of the Lord's Millennium on earth.

In the end, he sets aside Scripture of God, and any pretence of ministering for the true God, to preach his own gospel with power of his own coming.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

I believe the horns, like the Mother of harlots, are every Jewish fable and Christian heresy ever risen up in the Jews and Christian religions, that this last great mouth is able to use effectively for his own rise and godhead.




True. It is the final end of great tribulation on earth against the saints, which began with Cain 'talking with' and then slaying righteous Abel.

After the first bodily resurrection of all saints since Abel, at the Lord second coming, it will then be His turn at bat.


As Scripture says, all saints past, present, and future should be waiting to see, and faint not.

Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


As well as the fallen star from God's ministry, with key to unlock that pit in the first place, and then rise again in his own gospel.

The greatest pool sharks, are those who are so good, that they can miss convincingly.

So it is with the greatest ministerial wolves, who know the truth of Scripture so well, they can purposely miss, to even deceive the elect.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Could be the Syrian born Jew claims to be of the tribe of Judah.

The Scripture also shows, that he will be outwardly righteous and near perfect of manner, so that he won't even need to hide any hypocrisies of the flesh in secret.

He's not a piker that blows his power away by silly adulteries, thefts, etc... Outwardly, he will be as holiness as any holiness Pentecost.



Almost. The saints refusing his seductions and persecutions, will be purified by such tribulation, which is why the Lord has allowed it on earth, since Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden:

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Hebrews 10:9

 

[GRACE ambassador]

God actually permitted more than 30 years, as the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea did not occur until 70 AD.

Thanks to you, @jeffweeder and @rwb. Since our great conversation is becoming encumbered here, I am shifting this over to a new thread:

prophecy questions about God's Timelines - invitation...

 

[covenantee]

Thanks to you, @jeffweeder and @rwb. Since our great conversation is becoming encumbered here, I am shifting this over to a new thread:

prophecy questions about God's Timelines - invitation...

Excellent move.

 

[Davy]

In general, I totally agree with this post. The 'he' in Dan 9:27 is referring back to Dan 9:26 - great point!

The thing is is that the preterists (who definitely have an agenda on this forum and others) have confounded things so much, many posters go out of their way to cater to their view point. Put differently, you didn't even need to address the issue of Titus.

Some Historicists could be included in that too, and SDA.

Revelation is based on Dan 9:26 and Dan 9:27. The 'people of the prince to come' are the 'locusts' of the 1st woe/ 5th Trumpet. The covenant of Dan 9:27 is made in the middle of the 2nd woe at Rev 10:1's 'rainbow' (covenant after the 'flood' of Dan 9:26 which lasts for 5 months (150 days of Gen 7:24 - the 'flood' of Dan 9:26 is the 5 months of locusts in the 5th Trumpet + the war that is killing off a third of mankind in Rev 9:13-21 at the 1st part of the 2nd woe.

I cannot agree the Revelation Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are about the days of the Roman general Titus. The Daniel 9:27 verse is, because it is about the "image of the beast" that the "another beast" of Rev.13 will institute at the end just prior to Christ's future return. The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are all for the last generation, the generation that will see Christ's literal return.

 

[Davy]

Yes, they are the same.

The 'man of sin' is that 'anointed one'.

Not going to discuss it further.

The idea that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 is referring back to Messiah in verse 25 is a gross impossibility. There is no way to come to that conclusion except by twisting the Daniel 9 Scripture into a lie.

 

[Davy]

Beware of those who have Jesus atoning for sin in the 69th week instead of the prophesied 70th.:)


26 Then after the sixty-two weeks [of years] the Anointed One will be cut off [and denied His Messianic kingdom] and have nothing [and no one to defend Him], and the people of the [other] prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

27 And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week he will stop the sacrifice and grain offering and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until the complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who causes the horror.”

Dan 9:25-26
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
KJV

The title of "the Messiah the Prince" in verse 25 above refers to the idea of the 'Priest-King' of which there is ONLY ONE, Jesus Christ. So there is no way to try and turn that into some antichrist meaning.

And since the SUBJECT there is about the coming of Christ Jesus, that NEXT VERSE about Messiah being "cut off" MUST be about Jesus Christ also!

Thus your FALSE DOCTRINE from the devil is easily disproved.

 

[jeffweeder]

Dan 9:25-26
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
KJV

The title of "the Messiah the Prince" in verse 25 above refers to the idea of the 'Priest-King' of which there is ONLY ONE, Jesus Christ. So there is no way to try and turn that into some antichrist meaning.

And since the SUBJECT there is about the coming of Christ Jesus, that NEXT VERSE about Messiah being "cut off" MUST be about Jesus Christ also!

Thus your FALSE DOCTRINE from the devil is easily disproved.

Is English your first language?
I have made it very clear that v25 and 26 are about Messiah Jesus.
Do me a favor and go back and read my posts again.

 

[Davy]

Is English your first language?
I have made it very clear that v25 and 26 are about Messiah Jesus.
Do me a favor and go back and read my posts again.

But your false claim is that Daniel 9:27 is about Jesus TOO, which is FALSE. So why don't YOU go back and read what I posted instead!

 

[jeffweeder]

But your false claim is that Daniel 9:27 is about Jesus TOO, which is FALSE. So why don't YOU go back and read what I posted instead!

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks [of years] the Anointed One will be cut off [and denied His Messianic kingdom] and have nothing [and no one to defend Him], and the people of the [other] prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.



27 And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week he will stop the sacrifice and grain offering and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until the complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who causes the horror.”


The anointed one Jesus enters into a binding and irrevocable cov and the other one makes desolate.:cool:

 

[Davy]

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks [of years] the Anointed One will be cut off [and denied His Messianic kingdom] and have nothing [and no one to defend Him], and the people of the [other] prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

That "Anointed One" is about Jesus Christ, just as the "Messiah the Prince" back in verse 25 is too! (Your choice of Bible versions is probably one of your problems in interpretation.)

THIS is the verse you must start with...

Dan 9:25
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
KJV

That title "Messiah the Prince" can ONLY be about Jesus Christ. The subject there is that He was to come in the timeframe of that seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks, a total of 69 weeks.

However... the next 26th verse gives MORE info about Jesus, so you cannot LEAVE IT OUT...

Dan 9:26
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
KJV

That above, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off" gives MORE INFO about that specific "threescore and two weeks" period (62 weeks). It reveals Jesus would be "cut off" at the END of that period! That means at the END of 69 WEEKS!

And then, the subject CHANGES to the "prince" (NOT JESUS) that would come and destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (temple). PER CHRISTIAN TRADITIONAL DOCTRINE, that "prince" there is NOT JESUS. It was the historical Roman general Titus and his army in 70 A.D. that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. EASY!

Thus there is NO WAY to put Jesus into the 70th week events of Daniel 9:27. And anyone with common sense that can read what the false one of Daniel 9:27 does, because it is about the "vile person" of Daniel 11 that places the "abomination that maketh desolate", then it ought to be easy to know that ain't about Jesus Christ that does those things.

There is no way to apply the acts by that "vile person" in Daniel 11 to Christ Jesus, but that is exactly what you are trying... to do with that doctrine of the devil you are pushing.

 

[dismas]

Some Historicists could be included in that too, and SDA.


I cannot agree the Revelation Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are about the days of the Roman general Titus. The Daniel 9:27 verse is, because it is about the "image of the beast" that the "another beast" of Rev.13 will institute at the end just prior to Christ's future return. The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are all for the last generation, the generation that will see Christ's literal return.

I wasn't saying that the seals, Trumpets, and vials were in the past - the seals are open or starting soon.

This is my point - the preterists have twisted things around so much, you can't see my point that Dan 9:26 is futurist.

 

[Davy]

I wasn't saying that the seals, Trumpets, and vials were in the past - the seals are open or starting soon.

This is my point - the preterists have twisted things around so much, you can't see my point that Dan 9:26 is futurist.

Firstly, be of good cheer, because I am not a Preterist nor Historicist nor Futurist. I only care how God's Word reveals itself by more than one Scripture witness of a matter. And just because a Bible prophecy is still for sometime in the future, that doesn't mean it's a Futurist doctrine.

The last 3 Woes Jesus gave in His Revelation are very important. The 2nd Woe is tied to the 5th Trumpet, so it is impossible for that to have happened back in history. Here is the reason why...

In Christ's Olivet discourse He gave us 7 main Signs of the very end leading up to His future return. Those seven Signs are... the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials of His Book of Revelation. This is why we can do a parallel study of His Olivet discourse Signs with the Seals of Revelation 6. The very last Sign He gave was that of His future coming to gather His saints.

This is why the 6th Seal parallels the events of the 7th Trumpet and the 7th Vial. I see the 7th Seal, of which there is a period of silence for about half an hour, as a Selah rest, like in the Psalms. The Selah served as pause to consider what was just said, or musically what was just played. Thus Lord Jesus comes on 777. The Antichrist comes on 666.

In Revelation 9, with the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe, that is a 'prep' time for the "great tribulation". In that period God's servants are sealed with His seal. And the locust army from the Book of Joel are described. In the Book of Joel 1 & 2, the locust army appears upon God's people just prior to the "day of the Lord", which is when Jesus comes. So that's the period of the 5th trumpet-1st Woe.

Then on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe, that period kicks off with the angels bound at Euphrates being loosed, for a certain hour, day, month, year, etc., which marks a special and specific event, i.e., the tribulation for the end. This 2nd Woe continues all the way into the Revelation 11 chapter events, all the way up to the 3rd Woe signaling Christ's future coming on the 7th Trumpet.

 

[dismas]

The idea that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 is referring back to Messiah in verse 25 is a gross impossibility. There is no way to come to that conclusion except by twisting the Daniel 9 Scripture into a lie.

'messiah' just means 'anointed one' - it is the person who is received as the messiah. That's the whole point of what the 'antichrist' is.

John 5:43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

The problem is that Dan 9 is talking about 2 anointed ones - the prince that is cut off and the 'prince to come'.

The traditional understanding of 'the prince to come' is that this is the 'antichrist', right?

He is the one who makes the covenant and breaks it right? My point was that the 'prince to come' is that same person in Dan 9:26: the 'antichrist's people destroy the city & sanctuary and THEN makes the 7 year covenant. Destroying the city is the 2nd Trumpet (Babylon is the 'burning mountain' [Jer 51:25] and 'city' that rules the world). Breaking the covenant in Dan 9:27 is the 7th Trumpet. (These events are less than 7 years apart.)

But technically, there are 2 future anointed ones (3 really but that's for later) - because the one who is making the covenant is the antichrist and because Dan 9:26 can be interpreted as calling the 'anointed one (messiah)' the 'prince to come', it is possible to say that the one who is 'cut off' means the antichrist receiving his mortal head wound.

thus there is the 'messiah' (antichrist) who is 'cut off' (receives his mortal head wound) and also another prince that is to come. Maybe this is the false prophet or the little horn. Basically, we are talking about the #7 king and #8 king in Revelation 17:10-11.

 

[dismas]

Firstly, be of good cheer, because I am not a Preterist nor Historicist nor Futurist. I only care how God's Word reveals itself by more than one Scripture witness of a matter. And just because a Bible prophecy is still for sometime in the future, that doesn't mean it's a Futurist doctrine.

The last 3 Woes Jesus gave in His Revelation are very important. The 2nd Woe is tied to the 5th Trumpet, so it is impossible for that to have happened back in history. Here is the reason why...

In Christ's Olivet discourse He gave us 7 main Signs of the very end leading up to His future return. Those seven Signs are... the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials of His Book of Revelation. This is why we can do a parallel study of His Olivet discourse Signs with the Seals of Revelation 6. The very last Sign He gave was that of His future coming to gather His saints.

This is why the 6th Seal parallels the events of the 7th Trumpet and the 7th Vial. I see the 7th Seal, of which there is a period of silence for about half an hour, as a Selah rest, like in the Psalms. The Selah served as pause to consider what was just said, or musically what was just played. Thus Lord Jesus comes on 777. The Antichrist comes on 666.

In Revelation 9, with the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe, that is a 'prep' time for the "great tribulation". In that period God's servants are sealed with His seal. And the locust army from the Book of Joel are described. In the Book of Joel 1 & 2, the locust army appears upon God's people just prior to the "day of the Lord", which is when Jesus comes. So that's the period of the 5th trumpet-1st Woe.

Then on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe, that period kicks off with the angels bound at Euphrates being loosed, for a certain hour, day, month, year, etc., which marks a special and specific event, i.e., the tribulation for the end. This 2nd Woe continues all the way into the Revelation 11 chapter events, all the way up to the 3rd Woe signaling Christ's future coming on the 7th Trumpet.

The Trumpets start the great tribulation. The 1st Woe starts here too. The 2nd woe starts 5 months later. There is the killing of a third of mankind, then the Dan 9:27 covenant and then the breaking of it at the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Davy]

'messiah' just means 'anointed one' - it is the person who is received as the messiah. That's the whole point of what the 'antichrist' is.

Sorry, but that thinking is not correct. The Daniel 9:25 verse has "Messiah the Prince", which is the Priest-King idea. There has never been a king upon a throne that is also priest. That is God's Role only. Plus the command to restore is given with that marker about Christ, pointing to a specific event at a specific time, and covering to a specific time (the 454 B.C. time of the command to restore to 405 B.C., the 1st period (49 years), and then from 405 B.C. to 29 A.D. for the 2nd period (434 years). And 29 A.D. (per Ussher's chronology) sits right at the time of Christ's crucifixion (Jesus having been born 4 B.C. per the corrected reckoning - see Ussher & Bullinger). Thus the history proves that "Messiah the Prince" is only about Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ. And that 29 A.D. meets the end of Christ's Ministry when He was crucified. Thus the end of the 69th week for periods 1 & 2.

But the whole point about the Antichrist is different. The final Antichrist for the end of this world, the "vile person", the "little horn", "dragon", "another beast", "that old serpent", "son of perdition", "That Wicked", "man of sin", etc., is only coming at the very end of this world to 'play'... Messiah. Thus his role is specifically marked also, but not here in the Daniel 9:25-26 verses. But in the Daniel 9:27 verse, with more detail given in the Daniel 11 chapter via the "vile person" prophecy.

John 5:43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

That's Lord Jesus pointing to the blind scribes and Pharisees that they will unknowingly bow to the coming false-Messiah that Jesus showed comes first.

The problem is that Dan 9 is talking about 2 anointed ones - the prince that is cut off and the 'prince to come'.

No, it is not. You cannot... apply the first phrase of Daniel 9:26 to the later "prince" that destroys the city and sanctuary (i.e., Titus).

Dan 9:26
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
KJV

That phrase in red above has two linked references with the previous 25th verse. That is the same "Messiah the Prince" being spoken of in verse 25. And that "threescore and two weeks" period is the SAME period mentioned in verse 25. That phrase in red gives some new info, i.e. that Jesus would be "cut off" at the end of that 69th week (the 2 periods of 49 years + 434 years).

After that colon :)) is all about the Roman general Titus in 70 A.D. who destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the temple. And Titus served as a 'type' of Antichrist, which the "he" of verse 27 is pointing to for the end.

The traditional understanding of 'the prince to come' is that this is the 'antichrist', right?

The traditional Christian understanding by the old Christian scholars is that the Daniel 9:27 events are about the coming Antichrist at the end of this world.

He is the one who makes the covenant and breaks it right? My point was that the 'prince to come' is that same person in Dan 9:26: the 'antichrist's people destroy the city & sanctuary and THEN makes the 7 year covenant.

Absolutely not what God's Word teaches.

The one who destroys the city (Jerusalem) and sanctuary (temple) was the Roman general Titus in 70 A.D. STOP.

The one of Dan 9:27 that is coming will make a "league" which will allow the reestablishing of old covenant worship in Jerusalem, with a new temple. Titus in 70 A.D. only symbolically represented a type for the Antichrist. When the Antichrist comes, there still will not be a standing temple nor sacrifices going on. He is going to re-institute all that when he comes. Have you never read Zechariah 6 where it says that The BRANCH (Jesus) will build the temple? The Antichrist is going to try and copy that when he comes.

For around 2,000 years, there has never been another Jewish temple standing in Jerusalem. But today's Jews are preparing to build a 3rd temple in Jerusalem, and start up old covenant worship again (they don't believe on Jesus. They believe they are still under the old covenant today, which worship requires the temple and animal sacrifices.)

Destroying the city is the 2nd Trumpet (Babylon is the 'burning mountain' [Jer 51:25] and 'city' that rules the world). Breaking the covenant in Dan 9:27 is the 7th Trumpet. (These events are less than 7 years apart.)

All the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are for the very end of this world, in the last generation. This is proven by Jesus' Olivet discourse where He gave the 7 Signs of the end which are the Seals of Rev.6. The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are all about those same 7 Signs He gave in Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21.

But technically, there are 2 future anointed ones (3 really but that's for later) - because the one who is making the covenant is the antichrist and because Dan 9:26 can be interpreted as calling the 'anointed one (messiah)' the 'prince to come', it is possible to say that the one who is 'cut off' means the antichrist receiving his mortal head wound.

No there is only ONE anointed "Messiah the Prince" (Jesus) being spoken of in the Daniel 9:25-26 verses. So why are you trying to press your false assumption?

I'm pretty certain you well understand what I've shown about Christ and those first two time periods of Dan.9 that ended on Christ's crucifixion, and then what Titus did per history, and Dan.9:27 being about the Antichrist that's to come at the end just prior to Christ's return in the LAST generation. I'm fairly certain you well 'understood' me, so I have to believe you are just toying around now with what you're saying. Do you really think that getting me to explain this over and over that I'm going to contradict myself or something? Not gonna' happen.