The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Taken]

Correct on the first part.

1) Yes - this was a local flood and not a global flood - albeit "Local " is quite a large area in this case.
2) The Oceans were there prior to the flood .. as was the Mediterranian Sea (which is the body of water in question)
3) The flood water came from the Mediterranian Sea. After the last Ice Age the waters of the Mediterranian sea rose and rose -- over 10000 years. There was a fresh water lake in the region at the time but much smaller than the current sea. There was a natural Geological Dam holding back the waters .. then one day the dam broke - releasing all this water that had built up over 1000's of years.

The dating for this event has been suggested at around5000 BC. Exactly how the dam broke is speculation - but imagine if the breaking of this dam coincided with a massive earth quake .. this would be beyond catastrophic.

Okay, according to your view-
•The Oceans pre-Existed the Flood.
•The Flood Waters came FROM the Mediterranean Sea.
•A Dam of some sort was Breached (possibly caused by a volcano eruption)
• Causing the Waters From the Mediterranean Sea, to flow toward the present day Black Sea, and historically Flooding the surrounding areas of Lands of the (Black Sea).

Correct?

•Is it correct- you limit the Flood to this area of present day/Turkey/Iran/Iraq...? More?
•Do you believe Noah & (sons) built an Ark?
•Do you believe Noah his wife, 3 sons and 3 daughters-In-Laws, entered the Ark and were saved from drowning?
•Do you believe Land Animals & land fowls were saved in the ark?
•Do you believe any other people survived the days during the Flood?

• Would you say God caused the Flood? Or caused a Volcano that caused the Flood?

Thanks,
Taken

 

[justbyfaith]

The account in Genesis 6 and in Genesis 7 of the flood of Noah indicates clearly that the flood covered the whole earth.

Gen 7:19, And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Gen 7:20, Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Gen 7:21, And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Gen 7:22, All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Gen 7:23, And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

So, who are we to believe? @Heyzeus, or God?

I think that I will believe God.

 

[Heyzeus]

Okay, according to your view-
•The Oceans pre-Existed the Flood.
•The Flood Waters came FROM the Mediterranean Sea.
•A Dam of some sort was Breached (possibly caused by a volcano eruption)
• Causing the Waters From the Mediterranean Sea, to flow toward the present day Black Sea, and historically Flooding the surrounding areas of Lands of the (Black Sea).

Correct?

•Is it correct- you limit the Flood to this area of present day/Turkey/Iran/Iraq...? More?
•Do you believe Noah & (sons) built an Ark?
•Do you believe Noah his wife, 3 sons and 3 daughters-In-Laws, entered the Ark and were saved from drowning?
•Do you believe Land Animals & land fowls were saved in the ark?
•Do you believe any other people survived the days during the Flood?

• Would you say God caused the Flood? Or caused a Volcano that caused the Flood?

Thanks,
Taken

Is Nature not God ? .. Don't know who caused it... The flood story was a near east memory from the distant past - We have flood stories .. same as the one in the Bible sans small differences - from other near east cultures .. Babylonians/Assyrians .. Sumerians basically from 1800 BC .. so everyone at the time of Moses was familiar with this story for at least 5 centuries .. and possibly thousands years prior.

We have a written copies of these stories .. in great detail .. more detail than the Bible. God narrating this story to Moses would have been narrating a story that everyone already knew. It is unlikely that Genesis was part of the "book of the law". Genesis comes down to us from different sources .. even within the Biblical text .. and these sources say different things .. tell a different story .. come from a different perspective.

We have continuous culture through the Biblical flood period .. 2300-2100 BC .. didn't happen. The story of the flood was known long before the actual date as given in scripture.

The spectacled Bear was not teleported from South Africa onto the Ark - as this is the only way possible .. Noah and sons did not spend at least 2 years collecting 2 Polar bears from the Arctic .. didn't happen. many cultures continue on through this period.

Say in South Africa for example .. there was a huge civilization prior to the flood period -- other civilizations are rising up around 1800BC .. and this is when we start to have writing .. except .. the big problem .. is if this civilization gets wiped out by a flood .. the one's that come after are going to be wiring in Sumerian Script .. with the same art, culture, genetics and so on .. but that is not the case..

Even if the Biblical Flood actually happened as written - the timeline is off .. could not have happened in the time period suggested.

 

[BarneyFife]

Cow manure ? Some view this as Holy .. as in "Holy Sht" I hope this did not offend you too much .. so my apologies for that.

Your claim that History is unreliable is not supported .. What history .. what is it that you do not believe ? Do you not believe there were people living in South America in 2100 BC when the flood hit ?

Speak man .. you are talking to yourself in riddles that not even you can understand.

There are lots of things I don't know about or believe. I certainly don't believe just anything that is pressed between the covers of academia-regurgitated book or web site. Your contempt for "literalists" is not compatible with a forum called "ChristianityBoard" as is obvious by your likes-to-posts ratio. The forum rules prohibit what you're doing and I posted this specifically because I thought I should just own up to having reported your posts here since they're so off-topic and inflammatory. When it comes to Christianity, but the Bible in particular, you couldn't be bothered to push a noun up against a verb for any better reason than to sow doubt. How's that for a riddle?


"[*]Blasphemy will not be tolerated. This forum is intended for a Christian audience. Those who are not of the Christian faith are welcome to sign up but will be relegated to private forum discussion with staff members only. Any derogatory remarks about God (including the Son and Holy Spirit) will be removed. The same goes for remarks about Christianity. Do not hold the Bible to be the Word of God? We are not interested, then."

 

[Taken]

Is Nature not God ? .. Don't know who caused it... The flood story was a near east memory from the distant past - We have flood stories .. same as the one in the Bible sans small differences - from other near east cultures .. Babylonians/Assyrians .. Sumerians basically from 1800 BC .. so everyone at the time of Moses was familiar with this story for at least 5 centuries .. and possibly thousands years prior.

We have a written copies of these stories .. in great detail .. more detail than the Bible. God narrating this story to Moses would have been narrating a story that everyone already knew. It is unlikely that Genesis was part of the "book of the law". Genesis comes down to us from different sources .. even within the Biblical text .. and these sources say different things .. tell a different story .. come from a different perspective.

We have continuous culture through the Biblical flood period .. 2300-2100 BC .. didn't happen. The story of the flood was known long before the actual date as given in scripture.

The spectacled Bear was not teleported from South Africa onto the Ark - as this is the only way possible .. Noah and sons did not spend at least 2 years collecting 2 Polar bears from the Arctic .. didn't happen. many cultures continue on through this period.

Say in South Africa for example .. there was a huge civilization prior to the flood period -- other civilizations are rising up around 1800BC .. and this is when we start to have writing .. except .. the big problem .. is if this civilization gets wiped out by a flood .. the one's that come after are going to be wiring in Sumerian Script .. with the same art, culture, genetics and so on .. but that is not the case..

Even if the Biblical Flood actually happened as written - the timeline is off .. could not have happened in the time period suggested.

Okay-
So according to you...
• Other cultures Had Flood narratives in their ancient writings, pryor to Hebrew writings.
• Cultures continued, thus the world's population did not all die.
• Noah's Ark Did NOT Have bears.
• Genesis is likely NOT part of Hebrew Law.
• The Scriptural Time-Line is Not correct.
Thanks.

•Did Noah's Ark Exist?
•Were any animals on the Ark?
•These ancient cultures, you say we're not Flooded...did any of their writings, written in great detail-
... mention the Heavenly LORD God?
... mention ADAM?
... mention an ARK?
... mention the Tree of Life?
... mention great rains?


Thanks,
Taken

 

[tabletalk]

We can start with the one's you brought up :) Did you not tell me once that you could get all our current genetic diversity out of a few species on the ark or some such thing ? This would be a good explanation were it possible .. but its not - unless you invoke magic .. aka - direct intervention of God .. to speed up the mutation process .. which didn't happen .. as we would see it in the genetic database.

Then there is the problem of how to get those animals back to their original locations .. and leave zero traces behind. Magic

The one that I like to focus on though because the Magic God/Satan - or whomever think did it - would be way off the charts.

The Flood is dated Biblically to around 2100-2300 BC .. Abraham was around roughly 1800BC .. Flood happened 300 years earlier according to the Bible. The problem with this idea is we have continuous civilizations throughout this time period .. none of them just Stop .. even in the dark age periods .. when the timeline resumes it is the same culture .. and not a different one .. and this is a huge problem .. unless one wishes to claim that God planted all the evidence .. archaeology, history .. and no fancy dating methods required .. its just history .. this is not that far back.. and archaeology backs up the history - and creates some of it as we an read texts from 1800 BC .. and we are finding more all the time from 1000-1800 BC .. There was no Global Flood round 2100 -2300 that wiped out all land creatures.

Now . perhaps there is a literalist way to argue that what is being referred to is a more local rather than Global Flood ..as to the story teller - passed down through oral history it was a global flood. So to these folks - there literally was a global flood .. but their literal and your literal are two different things.

There was a massive flood around 5000 BC in the near east when the black sea was created. You could easily have a small group of people on some makeshift raft be the only ones to survive .. and never see another person again.. during their lifetime.

"unless you invoke magic .. aka - direct intervention of God"

I think you are blaspheming God, describing His direct intervention in this world as magic.

 

[Heyzeus]

The account in Genesis 6 and in Genesis 7 of the flood of Noah indicates clearly that the flood covered the whole earth.

So, who are we to believe? @Heyzeus, or God?

I think that I will believe God.

A false dichotomy .... as you do not know who write Genesis - it certainly wasn't Moses/God - least not the Flood Story.

 

[justbyfaith]

A false dichotomy .... as you do not know who write Genesis - it certainly wasn't Moses/God - least not the Flood Story.

It certainly was written by Moses and inspired by God.

 

[Heyzeus]

"unless you invoke magic .. aka - direct intervention of God"

I think you are blaspheming God, describing His direct intervention in this world as magic.

?? ... what a silly statement .. of course it is magic .. be it Merlin doing it or the Most High - do you not think God is capable of Magic - how are you even defining .. Magic ?

If you want blasphamy .. how about accusing God of Trickery as the literalist does in claiming a global flood that wiped out all land creatures 2100-2300 BC

 

[Heyzeus]

Okay-
So according to you...
• Other cultures Had Flood narratives in their ancient writings, pryor to Hebrew writings.
• Cultures continued, thus the world's population did not all die.
• Noah's Ark Did NOT Have bears.
• Genesis is likely NOT part of Hebrew Law.
• The Scriptural Time-Line is Not correct.
Thanks.

•Did Noah's Ark Exist?
•Were any animals on the Ark?
•These ancient cultures, you say we're not Flooded...did any of their writings, written in great detail-
... mention the Heavenly LORD God?
... mention ADAM?
... mention an ARK?
... mention the Tree of Life?
... mention great rains?


Thanks,
Taken

There could well have been boats .. none big enough to house 2 of every species of animals.
I did not say there were not bears on the Ark .. I said there were not Polar Bears not Spectacled bears .. don't start changing the story on me now.

The flood narrative was well known prior to Moses - why would you change this to Hebrew writing - one bears no relation to the other - you are changing the story. Good that you brought this up though.

The language these ancient stories was written in "WAS" the language of the Israelites .. Ancient Hebrew is a derivative of Elamite - the oldest language .. that spoken/written by the Babylonians and Assyrians .. ancient Sumerian - the descendents of Shem..

And all these descendents of Shem had the same story .. as we would expect :) Abraham was a Babylonian .. grew up in Ur .. during the time of Hamurrabi .. in Babylonia. The God of Abraham was El - Head Cheese of the Sumerian Pantheon .. "The Most High" - "The Creator" - God who dwells in the Mountain - El Shaddai - Was El's brother "Enki" who has "Ziusudra" build a boat to escape the flood in a fairly standard Mesopotamian creation epic.

Everyone knew this story - in one form or another for a 1000 years prior to - we have 3 versions of Babylonian flood myths dating around 1800BC and Gilgamesh poems dating back to 2100 -- so the story was around at least that long .. Gilgamesh was supposedly a king round 2700 BC..

Point being - everyone had a version of the same creation story - There was no need for God to have Moses write down a story that was already in circulation everywhere - already part of the collective conscience of the entire near East -

 

[Heyzeus]

There are lots of things I don't know about or believe. I certainly don't believe just anything that is pressed between the covers of academia-regurgitated book or web site. Your contempt for "literalists" is not compatible with a forum called "ChristianityBoard" as is obvious by your likes-to-posts ratio. The forum rules prohibit what you're doing and I posted this specifically because I thought I should just own up to having reported your posts here since they're so off-topic and inflammatory. When it comes to Christianity, but the Bible in particular, you couldn't be bothered to push a noun up against a verb for any better reason than to sow doubt. How's that for a riddle?


"[*]Blasphemy will not be tolerated. This forum is intended for a Christian audience. Those who are not of the Christian faith are welcome to sign up but will be relegated to private forum discussion with staff members only. Any derogatory remarks about God (including the Son and Holy Spirit) will be removed. The same goes for remarks about Christianity. Do not hold the Bible to be the Word of God? We are not interested, then."

Typical "Demonization of the Other" Tactics on display. You are not the arbiter of what is Christian and what is not - and you certainly do not speak for God .. as you are attempting to do - claiming anyone who does not share your extremist perspective is not a follower of Christ.

I am sorry that you are offended by the fact that the vast majority of Christianity does not share your literalist perspective - but, that does not make the vast majority of Christianity .. not Christians .. not Followers of Christ.

Attacking the messenger is not an argument for much - and you do it to the point of flamebait regularly- which is also against policy - - but I don't report you :)

I back everything I say about Scripture - with Scripture. Unfortunately - this scripture often conflicts with your man made dogma.
Rather than discuss this scripture - some run as far as you can away from this scripture .. normally followed with name calling - and/or some other demonization of the other Ad Hom fallacy .. and of course Strawman - putting words in the mouth of "The Other".

Is is OK .. I can handle the heat - I forgive you .. as per the teachings of our Lord and Savior .. of which you still have much to learn :)

 

[justbyfaith]

?? ... what a silly statement .. of course it is magic .. be it Merlin doing it or the Most High - do you not think God is capable of Magic - how are you even defining .. Magic ?

If you want blasphamy .. how about accusing God of Trickery as the literalist does in claiming a global flood that wiped out all land creatures 2100-2300 BC

Magic is something that is done by wizards and witches...God, on the other hand, is in the business of doing miracles.

With sorcery, theft of God's power is involved.

With the miracles of the Lord, it is on the up-and-up...the Person who owns the power is utilizing His own power to accoplish benevolence.

Whereas with magic...sorcery and witchcraft...generally the things that are accomplished are malevolent.

I am sorry that you are offended by the fact that the vast majority of Christianity does not share your literalist perspective - but, that does not make the vast majority of Christianity .. not Christians .. not Followers of Christ.

We know that the way to life is generally narrow (Matthew 7:13-14)...and therefore you are very likely not going to find the truth in what the majority upholds. You are going to find the truth in the generally narrow spectrum...those who are identified as "narrow-minded" hatefully by people who are generally ungodly in their character.

 

[Heyzeus]

Magic is something that is done by wizards and witches...God, on the other hand, is in the business of doing miracles.

With sorcery, theft of God's power is involved.

With the miracles of the Lord, it is on the up-and-up...the Person who owns the power is utilizing His own power to accoplish benevolence.

Whereas with magic...sorcery and witchcraft...generally the things that are accomplished are malevolent.



We know that the way to life is generally narrow (Matthew 7:13-14)...and therefore you are very likely not going to find the truth in what the majority upholds. You are going to find the truth in the generally narrow spectrum...those who are identified as "narrow-minded" hatefully by people who are generally ungodly in their character.

There are man forms of Magic .. many definitions .. all of which God is capable of .. You can call transporting the Polar Bears from the Artic Teleportation if you wish.. hey .. perhaps God used Technology .. has a teleport machine..

but if he did it with his will .. that is magic ..

 

[justbyfaith]

There are man forms of Magic .. many definitions .. all of which God is capable of .. You can call transporting the Polar Bears from the Artic Teleportation if you wish.. hey .. perhaps God used Technology .. has a teleport machine..

but if he did it with his will .. that is magic ..

No; that is a miracle.

Because God did it with His own power rather than what the devil does in stealing power from God in order to accomplish his works through sorcery and witchcraft.