The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Heyzeus]

Is it proper to be so flippant about such an important topic (or off-topic)? This seems a bit vulgar to me. Just saying. Doubt you will answer this question directly.

Really? Abbreviations for four-letter words now? Really?

What four letter word abbreviation .. and I was trying to be light - but .. if you are accusing me of being vulgar .. state what you are referring to specifically .. games games games .. one insult after the other..

anyhow .. have you anything other than avoidance and ad hom demonization strawman fallacy - every second sentence.. get an argument.

 

[justbyfaith]

and no one has a free pass through Judgement.

John 5:24 (kjv) contradicts your pov.

 

[Heyzeus]

This, after quoting me giving the exact number of translations on a popular Bible study website. I don't know where the cognitive dissonance is coming from. Don't you have anything to say except "I know you are but what am I?" and "Demonize, Demonize" ? I can't help it if you keep asking questions that are of no concern to me. I don't care to slice and dice Scripture according to some goofball Unbelief 101 professor from some apostate institution somewhere. Tell me, did you actually discover any of the difficulties you advance as conflicts, or are you just parroting something you read on the Internet or in a book?

How about that OSAS, huh?

What are you going on about now .. you were the one that brought up 28 translations .. as if it was significant. It turned out not to be.

If you believe being shown wrong in the slightest way is demonization .. and Satan is around every corner I suppose .. trying to trick you.
Then .. OK..

Welcome to the School of Satan .. The Advocate .. aka .. Son of God - as per Job 1. and The Tester.

Sataniel is tasked with the testing of Job - although this was a pleasure .. as he had a wager with his Father on this one..
This Son has some impressive God-Like powers - lighting from the sky .. that kind of stuff. Jesus could have used a few bolts - that would have smartened the Romans up in a hurry.

Satan is also tasked with the testing of Jesus - from start to finish ? .. or maybe just at the start ? feel free to jump in here.

In any case .. Satan has the task of testing Jesus .. no doubt like Job .. and most certainly when you think about it .. given to him by his Father.

Jesus pulled the short straw on that one .. back when he was with his brothers .. as we are told in Job 1 .. Deut 32:43 .. and various other places .. assuming John's pre-existence idea which I assume you agree with .. If Jesus was there ..pre-existent .. in what capacity relative to these other sons ?

Do feel free to jump in on this one .. your thoughts are much appreciated - and let the Testing Begin !!

 

[Heyzeus]

John 5:24 (kjv) contradicts your pov.

Not Me JB ! Jesus .. it contradicts Jesus .. so much to learn you have.

It is not for nothing that the Entire Church disagreed with you until Luther in the 1400s' and that same Church of Paul continues to disagree with you to this day.. the splinter group that formed after Luther - in protest of the evil Catholic Regime - adopted your position.

Orthodox - the closest we have to the original Church of Paul .. the half of Christianity that did not go Evil - disagrees with your position.

and one passage - one that comes much later and is not found in the Jesus of Matt/Mark - will not overturn this disagreement.

but no big deal .. you have your path to salvation .. I have mine - God is one !

 

[justbyfaith]

I certainly believe that John 5:24 (kjv) is a promise of holy scripture that can be obtained by our faith (2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Romans 4:20-22).

And the scripture in question promises that we shall not come into condemnation if we hear Jesus' words and believe on Him who sent Him...

So, regardless of what people in church history have believed over time....we can bank on what is written in the holy scriptures; specifically what is written in John 5:24 (kjv).

 

[Taken]

While I do not believe everything in the Bible is the Literal word of God - You do.

Heyzeus- I am also a literalist.
Seems, you have a question mark about how and why a literalist can literally Believe All Scripture when Evidence you have reviewed reveals conflict.

The Flood, and animals on the Ark for example...

Or Angel's, sons of God...

Pick a point- be glad to Discuss it, but not debate or Name call, or convince you otherwise. I can live with disagreeing.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Heyzeus]

Heyzeus- I am also a literalist.
Seems, you have a question mark about how and why a literalist can literally Believe All Scripture when Evidence you have reviewed reveals conflict.

The Flood, and animals on the Ark for example...

Or Angel's, sons of God...

Pick a point- be glad to Discuss it, but not debate or Name call, or convince you otherwise. I can live with disagreeing.

Glory to God,
Taken

We can start with the one's you brought up :) Did you not tell me once that you could get all our current genetic diversity out of a few species on the ark or some such thing ? This would be a good explanation were it possible .. but its not - unless you invoke magic .. aka - direct intervention of God .. to speed up the mutation process .. which didn't happen .. as we would see it in the genetic database.

Then there is the problem of how to get those animals back to their original locations .. and leave zero traces behind. Magic

The one that I like to focus on though because the Magic God/Satan - or whomever think did it - would be way off the charts.

The Flood is dated Biblically to around 2100-2300 BC .. Abraham was around roughly 1800BC .. Flood happened 300 years earlier according to the Bible. The problem with this idea is we have continuous civilizations throughout this time period .. none of them just Stop .. even in the dark age periods .. when the timeline resumes it is the same culture .. and not a different one .. and this is a huge problem .. unless one wishes to claim that God planted all the evidence .. archaeology, history .. and no fancy dating methods required .. its just history .. this is not that far back.. and archaeology backs up the history - and creates some of it as we an read texts from 1800 BC .. and we are finding more all the time from 1000-1800 BC .. There was no Global Flood round 2100 -2300 that wiped out all land creatures.

Now . perhaps there is a literalist way to argue that what is being referred to is a more local rather than Global Flood ..as to the story teller - passed down through oral history it was a global flood. So to these folks - there literally was a global flood .. but their literal and your literal are two different things.

There was a massive flood around 5000 BC in the near east when the black sea was created. You could easily have a small group of people on some makeshift raft be the only ones to survive .. and never see another person again.. during their lifetime.

 

[Heyzeus]

I certainly believe that John 5:24 (kjv) is a promise of holy scripture that can be obtained by our faith (2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Romans 4:20-22).

And the scripture in question promises that we shall not come into condemnation if we hear Jesus' words and believe on Him who sent Him...

So, regardless of what people in church history have believed over time....we can bank on what is written in the holy scriptures; specifically what is written in John 5:24 (kjv).

Yes - we all know that the sola fide perspective has some prima facie (on the surface) support for Sola Fide. What many don't realize is that most of the things they quote are misinterpretations.

But regardless - these passages are vague for the most part and sparse. On the other side of the coin .. you have the whole weight of Matt/Mark against this position ..

So to say "Scripture Says" - doesn't cut it - because scripture says something else - in a way more powerful, direct and explained way .. in other scripture. It is this bulk of scripture - against your position - which is why most of Christianity does not accept it.

 

[BarneyFife]

What four letter word abbreviation .. and I was trying to be light - but .. if you are accusing me of being vulgar .. state what you are referring to specifically .. games games games .. one insult after the other..

anyhow .. have you anything other than avoidance and ad hom demonization strawman fallacy - every second sentence.. get an argument.

BS?

 

[BarneyFife]

-

 

[Taken]

We can start with the one's you brought up :) Did you not tell me once that you could get all our current genetic diversity out of a few species on the ark or some such thing ? This would be a good explanation were it possible .. but its not - unless you invoke magic .. aka - direct intervention of God .. to speed up the mutation process .. which didn't happen .. as we would see it in the genetic database.

Then there is the problem of how to get those animals back to their original locations .. and leave zero traces behind. Magic

The one that I like to focus on though because the Magic God/Satan - or whomever think did it - would be way off the charts.

The Flood is dated Biblically to around 2100-2300 BC .. Abraham was around roughly 1800BC .. Flood happened 300 years earlier according to the Bible. The problem with this idea is we have continuous civilizations throughout this time period .. none of them just Stop .. even in the dark age periods .. when the timeline resumes it is the same culture .. and not a different one .. and this is a huge problem .. unless one wishes to claim that God planted all the evidence .. archaeology, history .. and no fancy dating methods required .. its just history .. this is not that far back.. and archaeology backs up the history - and creates some of it as we an read texts from 1800 BC .. and we are finding more all the time from 1000-1800 BC .. There was no Global Flood round 2100 -2300 that wiped out all land creatures.

Now . perhaps there is a literalist way to argue that what is being referred to is a more local rather than Global Flood ..as to the story teller - passed down through oral history it was a global flood. So to these folks - there literally was a global flood .. but their literal and your literal are two different things.

There was a massive flood around 5000 BC in the near east when the black sea was created. You could easily have a small group of people on some makeshift raft be the only ones to survive .. and never see another person again.. during their lifetime.

Ok the Flood.
Perhaps instead of jumping into an argument-
OF why, You could identify your point of what.
In your point of view...for example identify your points.
Was there a Flood?
Did it cover all Land?

Taken

 

[Heyzeus]

Ok the Flood.
Perhaps instead of jumping into an argument-
OF why, You could identify your point of what.
In your point of view...for example identify your points.
Was there a Flood?
Did it cover all Land?

Taken

Yes there was a flood .. no it did not cover the whole planet 2100-2300 BC ..

 

[BarneyFife]

Yes there was a flood .. no it did not cover the whole planet 2100-2300 BC ..

The Bible says it did. You rely on history which is just as unreliable as you say the Bible is. Napoleon once said that history is but a pack of lies agreed upon. No matter how much you revere "history" and "science" the fact is it is no more agreed upon universally as is the Bible. A literalist cannot win an argument that never ends and neither can you. Doubtless, you'll claim this is all anecdotal and ad hominem demonizing. So be it. Your claims are based upon a glut of data. How does that stand as an authority above another widely-accepted body of information?

I sure am enjoying all of these "teachings of Jesus."

Still waiting on an answer for your flippancy and vulgarity ("Holy dang..." and "BS").

It's clear to me that you don't care about anything but sowing doubt as to the authenticity and authority of Scripture as far as this forum is concerned. Why deny it or call it "the teachings of Jesus?"

 

[Taken]

Yes there was a flood ..

Agree.

no it did not cover the whole planet 2100-2300 BC ..

Disagree.

What is your view of what land the flood did Cover?

 

[justbyfaith]

But regardless - these passages are vague for the most part and sparse. On the other side of the coin .. you have the whole weight of Matt/Mark against this position ..

By all means quote the verses in Matthew and Mark that you think contradict John 5:24 (kjv) and we will see if I, with the help of the Holy Spirit, cannot reconcile the apparent contradiction.

 

[Heyzeus]

Agree.



Disagree.

What is your view of what land the flood did Cover?

Check out the Black Sea ... and expand it by a bunch.. The Black sea did not exist at the time ..there were people living where the black sea is today ... expand that area by a bunch .. and that was the global flood ...

So the whole area of the black sea got wiped out .. and a whole bunch more. .. imagine the mediterranian sea filling up due to the ice melt that happened 12-14000 BC till 5000 BC .. sea level rising something like 100 meters or more .. .. and that geological dam collapsing and rushing in to form the black sea... It was a Massive flood .. probably coupled with some kind of earth quake which destroyed the dam all at once .. coupled with a massive tsunami...

 

[Heyzeus]

The Bible says it did. You rely on history which is just as unreliable as you say the Bible is. Napoleon once said that history is but a pack of lies agreed upon. No matter how much you revere "history" and "science" the fact is it is no more agreed upon universally as is the Bible. A literalist cannot win an argument that never ends and neither can you. Doubtless, you'll claim this is all anecdotal and ad hominem demonizing. So be it. Your claims are based upon a glut of data. How does that stand as an authority above another widely-accepted body of information?

I sure am enjoying all of these "teachings of Jesus."

Still waiting on an answer for your flippancy and vulgarity ("Holy dang..." and "BS").

It's clear to me that you don't care about anything but sowing doubt as to the authenticity and authority of Scripture as far as this forum is concerned. Why deny it or call it "the teachings of Jesus?"

Cow manure ? Some view this as Holy .. as in "Holy Sht" I hope this did not offend you too much .. so my apologies for that.

Your claim that History is unreliable is not supported .. What history .. what is it that you do not believe ? Do you not believe there were people living in South America in 2100 BC when the flood hit ?

Speak man .. you are talking to yourself in riddles that not even you can understand.

 

[Heyzeus]

By all means quote the verses in Matthew and Mark that you think contradict John 5:24 (kjv) and we will see if I, with the help of the Holy Spirit, cannot reconcile the apparent contradiction.

You have been trying to reconcile this contradiction from the beginning and failed miserably .. 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand

You have been desperately avoiding "The will of the Father" as per "This Sermon" - running frantically to other scripture - running frantically from the words of Jesus in this sermon .. which tell us what the will of the Father is.

and you will run from the teachings of Jesus in this sermon once again in your next post ..

 

[justbyfaith]

You have been trying to reconcile this contradiction from the beginning and failed miserably .. 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand

You have been desperately avoiding "The will of the Father" as per "This Sermon" - running frantically to other scripture - running frantically from the words of Jesus in this sermon .. which tell us what the will of the Father is.

and you will run from the teachings of Jesus in this sermon once again in your next post ..

There is no contradiction between John 5:24 (kjv) and Matthew 7:21-23.

It is reconciled by 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)...those who have faith in the true Lord are transformed within so that it is their inclination to do the will of the Father.

next.....

 

[Taken]

Check out the Black Sea ... and expand it by a bunch.. The Black sea did not exist at the time ..there were people living where the black sea is today ... expand that area by a bunch .. and that was the global flood ...

So the whole area of the black sea got wiped out .. and a whole bunch more. .. imagine the mediterranian sea filling up due to the ice melt that happened 12-14000 BC till 5000 BC .. sea level rising something like 100 meters or more .. .. and that geological dam collapsing and rushing in to form the black sea... It was a Massive flood .. probably coupled with some kind of earth quake which destroyed the dam all at once .. coupled with a massive tsunami...

Question:
What is your view of what land the flood did Cover?

Is your answer the area of the present day Black Sea?