The Doctrines of Grace

[PinSeeker]

Calvin had his very own interpretation....

Not his own, really; he credited Augustine as one of the great influences of his understandings of Scripture.

begun by a gnostic Christian from the 5th century that spent 10 years in a gnostic sect called Manechaeism.

Yes, Augustine had his journey to Christ, and his own testimony as to how he was converted to Christ, I'm sure, much as we all do. I mean, yeah, his conversion may even have been as dramatic as Paul's conversion was. I don't know, though; Paul was a murderer and persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it, by his own admission. God can change any man's heart, no matter how hard. He can give life to even dry bones... (Ezekiel 37... what a great, great passage).

Doesn't sound like proof Pin.

Ah, you just don't want it to be. That's okay.

Prove I mischaracterize Calvin...

I have. Over and over again.

or stop saying it.

Well, then stop doing it. You have the pow-uh! <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope. I'm not going into detail again, because I have several times.


Both. Those those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... And those whom he predestined he also called..." These are Paul's exact words. God did all these things, GodsGrace. And nobody else had anything to do with it, nor did anything happen that caused Him to decide to do all these things.


Absolutely not; it's obviously why, not "how." They were predestined ~ their destiny was declared... the result was determined... God's purpose for those people was set... long before they even lived ~ to be conformed to the image of His Son.


Which is synonymous with fore-loved. And we love because He first loved us. But wait... thse are not Paul's exact words. He says, "those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." Don't change the order of what Paul (really God) said, GodsGrace. Or leave anything out. And ~ yet again ~ "those He foreknew" is a group of folks less than the whole of mankind, so he cannot possibly mean "foreknew" in the mere sense of cognitive knowledge beforehand, as I said, because in that sense, He foreknew every thing and every one before it ever was.


Absolutely it is, and corporately... each one making up the whole.


Well, like I said, for the two hundred and thirty-seventh... now thirty-eighth... time... Over and over and over again.


This is not "how," GodsGrace, it's for what; He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus. The only "how" is because God decided it would be so. And then you could apply the "how" as by the working of the Holy Spirit. Goodness gracious.

I really don't want to see you try to wriggle out of something you can't get out of or away from, but so be it.


Some want to think that, sure. <smile> But just look at the brief string above here. Can you not see the wooden-headedness of what you are saying? Goodness gracious. You might as well say, "I don't really have a nose on my face, but a tail."


And here we go again with this... His desire is this. He would much rather that be the case than what will be the case. But that will not be the case; there will be some who... well, you know. Neither one of us believes in universalism, that all people will be saved, so obviously that is not His purpose, else it would be the case. So ~ yet again ~ if that is His will, then why doesn't it happen? Because nothing can thwart God's purposes. Nothing can thwart God's purposes.


Ah, well, not all will meet God's standard, which is perfection... sinlessness... holiness. But some will be redeemed, and therefore be clothed with the righteousness of Christ, while others will not.


No, there are responsibilities once one is saved. If there were conditions for man to be saved and man had to meet those conditions, then salvation would not be due to God's grace, but to man's merit... as Paul says, grace would not be grace.


Agree... to here, and here only.


Agree; God's choices are not arbitrary, and all are according to His own glory.


He chooses some for Himself, a remnant. And as Paul says, God has every right to make some for noble use and some for common use..


What are you even talking about here? Do you even know?


I mean sure, yes, but all I did was say that was the only place anywhere else in Scripture aside from Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 is predestination ever mentioned. Goodness gracious.


The covenant of life, yes. Renewed with Noah. Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. I don't remember the point you were trying to make, to be honest. I doubt that I didn't reply, but probably just not the way you wanted me to. <smile>


God predestinates certain people to be conformed to the image of His son. And, man has free will. As I have said countless times, the issue is not really the will ~ or whether it is free or not ~ but the state of the heart... who (or Who) he or she is of, and therefore who (or Who) his or her father (or Father) is, which determines whose (or Whose) will he or she does.


Yes it can... absolutely it can. Really... well, now this will probably make you mad... <chuckles>... There is a sense in which man's will is free, but there is also a sense in which man's will is never free. To the latter, all we have to do is look at Paul's words in Romans 6 and see that any man, at any one time, is either a slave to unrighteousness or a slave to righteousness. Every man is originally the former, and many remain so.


Yes, and you're grossly misapplying it.

Grace and peace to you.

Won't read everything...skimmed through and, as usual,,,you have NO REPLY.
Incredible how Calvinists on this site are UNABLE to support their belief system.

Calvinism is HERETICAL.
Why is it heretical?
Because it believes in doctrine that NO OTHER mainline Christian denomination believes.
Heretical: Not accepting what the majority have deemed to be applicable.

You chuckle and giggle your way through
BUT

1. I always reply to your scripture and explain how every other Christian denomination interprets it.
2. I post scripture but YOU NEVER give your interpretation.

So basically, you're unable to support your point of view.
And, it IS a point of view because it's heretical.

Also, you never replied to my 2 Covenants which I brought up.
You make some kind of attempt above by mentioning Noah...but I NEVER mentioned the Noahic Covenant.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not his own, really; he credited Augustine as one of the great influences of his understandings of Scripture.


Yes, Augustine had his journey to Christ, and his own testimony as to how he was converted to Christ, I'm sure, much as we all do. I mean, yeah, his conversion may even have been as dramatic as Paul's conversion was. I don't know, though; Paul was a murderer and persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it, by his own admission. God can change any man's heart, no matter how hard. He can give life to even dry bones... (Ezekiel 37... what a great, great passage).

Maybe you should be Catholic?
If Calvin loved Augustine so much...he should have converted to Catholicism.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did. And I hope you read my explanation, refuting your silly one. <smile>

It's written in ENGLISH Pin.
It states that NOTHING IS LEFT TO CHANCE/LUCK.

It states that God decrees everything...even inanimate objects for His own good pleasure.
It states that IF ONE FALLS AMONG ROBBERS....yes, even the inanimate object that robber might use to HARM HIS TARGETED PERSON...
is an action that is decreed by God for HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE.

Quite a God you worship there...
NOT the God of the bible.


Here it is again...maybe a 3rd reading could be helpful:


The Institutes
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 2

2. That this distinction may be the more manifest, we must consider that the Providence of God, as taught in Scripture, is opposed to fortune and fortuitous causes.

By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day--viz. that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried.

If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death--

all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered (Mt. 10:30), will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. Hence they are merely instruments, into which God constantly infuses what energy he sees meet, and turns and converts to any purpose at his pleasure.

Oh, well thanks! <smile> And if you want to hold on to your false impressions of Reformed theology ~ which means formed again, in the sense that it came out of restoring Christianity and Christ's Church back to its apostolic roots (from the abuses propagated by the Roman Catholics) ~ then... well, hold on to 'em. I mean I would exort you not, but you're certainly your own person. With... a free will... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Again, you fail to show HOW I'm misinformed re reformed theology...
because, I am not...and so it cannot be proven by you.

Here are some verses for you that will prove how reformed theology is incorrect and heretical:

1. TOTAL DEPRAVITY STATES THAT MAN IS UNABLE TO SEEK GOD ACCORDING TO REFORMED THEOLOGY.
THE BIBLE STATES MAN IS ABLE TO SEEK GOD:

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17
17I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Matthew 7:7-8
7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

2 Chronicles 7:14
14If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

James 4:8
8Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.

Luke 12:31
31Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

2. UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION STATES THAT GOD CHOOSES WHO WILL BE SAVED AND WHO WILL BE DAMNED, ACCORDING TO REFORMED THEOLOGY.
THE BIBLE STATES THAT GOD HAS SET CONDITIONS FOR SALVATION SO THAT ANY PERSON MAY BE SAVED:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith.9And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 10:9
9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 5:24
24Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life.

Mark 1:15
15“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Colossians 2:23
23 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

Romans 12:1
1I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.


3. LIMITED ATONEMENT STATES THAT JESUS DIED FOR JUST A FEW PERSONS, ACCORDING TO REFORMED THEOLOGY.
THE BIBLE STATES THAT JESUS DIED FOR ALL MEN TO REDEEM THEM FROM SATAN'S GRIP.

1 John 2:2
2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9
9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 Timothy 2:6
6Who gave himself as a ransom for all,

John 12:32
32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

1 John 4:14
14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10
10For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.


1 OF 2

 

[GodsGrace]

@PinSeeker
@brightfame52
@Hey You!

2 OF 2

4. IRRISISTIBLE GRACE TEACHES THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S GRACE AND HE MUST ACCEPT SALVATION IF GOD SO CHOOSES, ACCORDING TO REFORMED THEOLOGY.
THE BIBLE STATES THAT MAN HAS THE FREE WILL TO DENY SALVATION.

2 Timothy 2:12
12If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Luke 9:23
23And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Psalm 14:1
1To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”

Mark 8:38
38For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed

Romans 1:28
28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God,

Romans 1:16
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Acts 3:19
19Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,


5. PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS TEACHES THAT GOD WILL MAKE TO PERSEVERE TILL THE END THOSE THAT GOD HAS CHOSEN FOR SALVATION,,,ACCORDING TO REFORMED THEOLOGY.
THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT JESUS AND PAUL, ETC. EXHORTED BELIEVERS TO KEEP THE FAITH...IT IS NOT AUTOMATIC:

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Hebrews 3:12
12Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Revelation 22:19
19And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

2 Peter 1:10
10Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

1 Corinthians 9:27
27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

James 5:19
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death.

John 15:6
6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

2 Corinthians 13:5
5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

1 Corinthians 10:12
12Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


So, we have a choice...
We could believe reformed theology/calvinism
or
We could believe what the bible, the Word of God, teaches us.

I choose the word of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Hey You!
I added you to the list because sometimes it seems to me that some are Calvinist and may not even know it.
We have a couple of persons on this forum that I believe are like that...not particularly meaning you.

 

[Ritajanice]

Irresistible Grace....Praise God for heart revelation.

• Rom. 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
• I Cor. 2:10-14 “But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
• 1 Cor. 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
• 1 Cor. 12:3 “Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.”
• II Cor. 3:6 “… who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
• II Cor. 3:17 “Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.”
• II Cor. 3:18 “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
• I Pet. 1:2 “…elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.”

2. Sinners, through regeneration, are brought into God’s kingdom and made His children. The author of this new birth is the Holy Spirit. The instrumentwhich He uses is the preaching of the Word of God.

• John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
• John 3:3-8 “Jesus answered and said to him, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born? Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
• Titus 3:5-7 “…not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
• I Pet. 1:3, 23-25 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead… having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because All flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.”
• I John 5:4 “For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world – our faith.”

3. Through the work of the Holy Spirit man is given a new heart (nature) and made to walk according to the will of God. Man becomes a new creature in Jesus Christ.

• Deut. 30:6 “And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.”
• Jer. 31:33-34 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the LORD, I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD, for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
• Ezek. 36:26-27 “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.”
• Gal. 6:15 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.”
• Eph. 2:10, 18, 22 “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. …in whom you also are being built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.”
• II Cor. 5:17-18 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation.”

4. The Holy Spirit raises man from a state of spiritual death to life.

• John 5:21 “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.”
• Eph. 2:1, 5 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, … even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).”
• Col. 2:13 “And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses…”

5. God reveals to His elect the secrets of His kingdom through the inward, personal revelation given by the Holy Spirit.

• Matt. 11:25-27 “At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
• Matt. 13:10-11, 16 “And the disciples came and said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables? He answered and said to them, Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear.”

 

[Lambano]

5. PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS TEACHES THAT GOD WILL MAKE TO PERSEVERE TILL THE END THOSE THAT GOD HAS CHOSEN FOR SALVATION,,,ACCORDING TO REFORMED THEOLOGY.
THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT JESUS AND PAUL, ETC. EXHORTED BELIEVERS TO KEEP THE FAITH...IT IS NOT AUTOMATIC:

This is explained thusly:

There are sons of God who do not yet appear so to us, but now do so to God; and there are those who, on account of some arrogated or temporal grace, are called so by us, but are not so to God.” (John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God)

“Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them..... Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.” (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion)

“Yet sometimes he also causes those whom he illumines only for a time to partake of it; then he justly forsakes them on account of their ungratefulness and strikes them with even greater blindness.” (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion)

"Total Depravity" is understood here to be "Total Inability". This is the original Reformed understanding of Depravity, despite Pinseeker's earlier protest to the contrary. If Man is justified by faith, God must regenerate the spirit for a person to believe. Then what of those who do believe for a while and then fall away? Calvin taught that God gave them a temporary faith and then pulled the rug out from under them. Which says volumes about God's character. A more moderated view will say that of course Man has the native ability to believe the Gospel and to trust Jesus (as he has the ability to trust and believe anything, as the things humans do believe in and do trust demonstrate), but in the end, human faith will prove to be evanescent.

For this reason, no believer should ever have assurance of their salvation. They may have only the gift of a temporary, arrogated, evanescent faith. And a believer who is struggling with assurance should justifiably wonder whether or not they are truly elect.

 

[Lambano]

@GodsGrace, I found this book helpful in explaining the arguments on both sides of the issue. The author takes great pains to express the arguments in terms BOTH sides would agree upon.

 

[JLB]

Many self-professed Christians say that the Reformed/Calvinist teachings are heretical.

I have come across and iteracted with many who claim to know these doctrines but are clueless as to what they teach.

When asked for proof that the teachings are heretical, all I get is opinions and and deflection.

I have yet to se a solid argument against any of the points of TULIP.

This thread has one purpose.

Those of you who claim that these 5 points are heretical, do you also believe that the people who believe in them are not truly regenerate Christians?

If you believe that we are unregenerate, what is your proof?

In no way will I argue with anyone, nevertheless, everyone likes a healthy debate.

If you want to spew insults and hatred, please do not participate, because all that shows is your ignorance and you really have nothing of value to ad to this topic.

So I ask again.

Am I a regenerated man in Christ because I believe in the 5 points of TULIP?

Grace and peace to you.

If a person is in Christ, and therefore in the New Covenant then there is only the doctrine of Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9

Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ to those who follow Him.

• If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace, I found this book helpful in explaining the arguments on both sides of the issue. The author takes great pains to express the arguments in terms BOTH sides would agree upon.

I do believe I know the arguments on both sides....
I also don't believe arminianism is the opposite of calvinism,
but I'm not going to debate that.

The problem is this Lambano...
We could EXPLAIN both sides,,,
but both sides CANNOT BE RIGHT.

They are totally opposite in theology/soteriology.
One MUST be wrong.

So which one is it?
The theology/soteriology that has been around from when Jesus ascended....
or the theology/soteriology that was invented in the 1500's by some men?

As I've said repeatedly,,,,men have also started other denominations:

MUHAMMAD
CHARLES RUSSEL
ELLEN WHITE
JOSEPH SMITH
and more....

 

[GodsGrace]

This is explained thusly:

Yes. I have the 4 volumes of the Institutes.
The above are part of the volumes...sounds like Book 3 to me.

Calvinists claim they can be sure of their salvation...
but Calvin clearly taught that they cannot, because of your last post from The Institutes.

It's all rather horrifying to be honest and it escapes me how anyone could worship such a God.
Forunately, God is merciful and He will have mercy NOT ONLY ON WHOM HE WILL HAVE MERCY (even Romans 9 is not properly interpreted by the reformed) but He will have mercy on all who call on His name.
Romans 10:13
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And if we want to dig a little deeper, let's see the rest of that passage:
Romans 10:13-14
13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”


Any denomination could preach the word of God and be telling the truth ...
the truth that the hearer has the ability to be saved...that they CAN be saved.

A reformed preacher cannot state this because he cannot know if God chose the person to whom he is speaking.
The listener, in reformed theology, has no power as to whether or not he would like to be saved.

There is NO GOOD NEWS in reformed theology....
and the gospel message is of no value.

"Total Depravity" is understood here to be "Total Inability". This is the original Reformed understanding of Depravity, despite Pinseeker's earlier protest to the contrary.

Correct. Total Depravity means that a person is so totally depraved that he is UNABLE to seek God. My point exactly, and thus all my verses to show that MAN CAN SEEK GOD.....the opposite of what the reformed teach.

If Man is justified by faith, God must regenerate the spirit for a person to believe. Then what of those who do believe for a while and then fall away? Calvin taught that God gave them a temporary faith and then pulled the rug out from under them. Which says volumes about God's character. A more moderated view will say that of course Man has the native ability to believe the Gospel and to trust Jesus (as he has the ability to trust and believe anything, as the things humans do believe in and do trust demonstrate), but in the end, human faith will prove to be evanescent.

This goes to free will, and I did post many verses showing that man has the free will to either accept or deny God.
(was it in this thread?? will check)

For this reason, no believer should ever have assurance of their salvation. They may have only the gift of a temporary, arrogated, evanescent faith. And a believer who is struggling with assurance should justifiably wonder whether or not they are truly elect.

A believer that is struggling with assurance can be assured by the word of God.
Here is one verse that can assure anyone:

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Salvation is not so difficult Lambano....
1. Believe in God.
2. Obey Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Lambano
Yes. The post I had in mind is here,,,you probably saw it and are responding to it.
Posts no. 844 and 845

 

[Ritajanice]

The Word of the Lord Stands Forever.



A Born Again who has been birthed by the Spirit Of God can never be - un- birthed or ever lose their salvation.


(Isaiah 40:6-8)

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you

 

[Hey You!]

@Hey You!
I added you to the list because sometimes it seems to me that some are Calvinist and may not even know it.
We have a couple of persons on this forum that I believe are like that...not particularly meaning you.

I was Saved in a Reformed Baptist Church, so I was a 5-Point Calvinist. I got Married and changed to an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, and they are NOT Calvinists. I learned from both, so I think I've reconciled the problem areas...

One of my goals in life is to show Christians that they are more Calvinistic than they think they are. But it's HARD to show Calvinists they are more Provisional than they think they are. How do I do it? Get a Calvinist to defend Faith Alone against Roman Catholics; it's a beautiful thing. They will sound more like YOU than you can fathom...

 

[PinSeeker]

Won't read everything...

<chuckles>

...skimmed through and, as usual,,,you have NO REPLY.

At this point, I have no idea what you're talking about. I highly doubt I didn't reply, but only didn't reply the way you wanted me to. But, I'm freely willing... see what I did there?... to consider that I in fact didn't reply, and ask you to repeat the question, and this time you will get a very thorough reply ~ which... doesn't necessarily mean a long one... <smile>

Incredible how Calvinists on this site are UNABLE to support their belief system...

...the way Arminians want them to.

Calvinism is HERETICAL.

Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is heretical. But, one is supported by Scripture, and the other is not. And as I have been saying, the one that is not seems to be supported, because of factors like the refusal to accept the two senses of some things ~ like Jesus's atonement being in one sense for everyone and in the other sense only for the elect... and that human beings in one sense undeniably have free will while in the other sense do not.

Why is it heretical?

It's not. I mean, Calvinists could level the same assertion against Arminianism, but it would be just as false.

Heretical: Not accepting what the majority have deemed to be applicable.

Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism meet with that definition. We all believe the basics of Christianity, starting with the fact that... well, to repeat what Paul said to the Philippians, Jesus, the second Person of the triune Jehovah God, was in the form of God, and did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When we get into particulars, like the true human condition, the conditions or lack thereof on man for his election, even the scope of Jesus's atonement, the nature of God's saving grace and it's strength/power, and who is responsible for man's continuing in the faith... it's really okay to disagree on those things, and even to have healthy discussions and even debate regarding them..

1. I always reply to your scripture and explain how every other Christian denomination interprets it.

Well... every other Arminian one, sure. <smile>

2. I post scripture but YOU NEVER give your interpretation.

We post the same Scriptures many times, and we give our interpretations. We both do that. To say I never do is patently ridiculous and untrue.

So basically, you're unable to support your point of view...

...to your satisfaction. Your disagreement does not indicate in anyway an inability to support my point of view in any way, but only your opinion regarding my point of view. And we could turn that around ~ switch places, as it were, in that statement, or apply it to me ~ and it would be just as true.

And, it IS a point of view because it's heretical.

Hmmm... God has a "point of view," and even by His own admission it is very different than that of any man, so is He heretical? Well... no...

Hopefully we can close this part out... <smile>

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Also, you never replied to my 2 Covenants which I brought up.

I'm not sure you what you wanted me to say to that, or even if there was some question you were asking me. Perhaps you can clarify.

You make some kind of attempt above by mentioning Noah...but I NEVER mentioned the Noahic Covenant.

Right, but I did say the Adamic covenant was renewed with Noah. Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. So really, by speaking about the Noahic covenant, I'm also speaking of the Adamic covenant, because they are the same. By the way, this is a dispensational mistake: separating the covenants as distinct and mutually exclusive of each other. In a way they are, but in a very important way they are not; to put it succinctly, covenant theology states that these "lesser" covenants are cumulative, and all culminate into the one true fulfillment of all these "lesser" covenants in the one everlasting covenant, which is embodied in Christ Jesus, Who is the way, the truth, and the life (Adamic and Noahic), will be with us always, now by the Spirit, later in Person in the New Heaven and New Earth; "the meek shall inherit the earth" (Abramic), is the true Law (Mosaic), and our now and forever King (Davidic). Look at that... a seminary class (or several) in one sentence... <smile>

Maybe we can close this out, now, too...

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Maybe you should be Catholic?

Perish the thought. Unless you're talking about being a member of the one holy, catholic, apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, which I confess to every single Sunday, corporately with the rest of the congregation of the... very mainline... church I attend... <smile>

If Calvin loved Augustine so much...he should have converted to Catholicism.

Augustine was not a Catholic; the Catholic church only really came about in the time of Augustine. And Catholicism itself is not... terrible... but holds to several... bad things... like, for instance, essentially exalting Mary to co-redeemership with Jesus, praying to the dead, and a number of other things that have been mentioned in this thread... that Augustine would not have done.

It states that God decrees everything...even inanimate objects for His own good pleasure.

Sure, and I have agreed, and do so again here. But His decreeing of the state of and the use of things, whether for His own good pleasure or otherwise, does not amount to His doing those things, or His responsibility for people's doing those things, or His thinking or making decisions for people, anything like that. That's just a terrible misunderstanding, the same misunderstanding propagated by hyper-Calvinists.

Again, you fail to show HOW I'm misinformed re reformed theology...

In your opinion. And as I have said, regarding the things you have said, you can turn that around and place it squarely on me, and I'll say, "Okay, sure, fair enough."

because, I am not...

In your opinion. And as I have said, regarding the things you have said, you can turn that around and place it squarely on me, and I'll say, "Okay, sure, fair enough."

and so it cannot be proven by you.

In your opinion. And as I have said, regarding the things you have said, you can turn that around and place it squarely on me, and I'll say, "Okay, sure, fair enough."

Here are some verses for you that will prove how reformed theology is incorrect and heretical:

Well, again, what I said above about heresy holds true. And beyond that, here too: in your opinion. And as I have said, regarding the things you have said, you can turn that around and place it squarely on me, and I'll say, "Okay, sure, fair enough."

Maybe we can close this out, too...

Continued...

 

[Hey You!]

Man of two Covenants ~ by ReverendRV * July 8

Jeremiah 31:31 NLT; "The day is coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.

Before the days of Jeremiah, the last Covenant God made with Israel was the Davidic Covenant. I researched a Jewish Rabbi and he says the promised New Covenant hasn’t come yet; this means they are still waiting for a New Covenant to appear. ~ The Old Testament has a ‘Typology’; symbolism which is explained to us in the New Testament of the Bible. During the Last Supper, Jesus led his Disciples through a Jewish ritual called a Seder. He went on to teach that the Wine of the Seder symbolizes the New Covenant established by his blood; we see that Jesus believed God’s New Covenant was ratified during his lifetime. The Seder ritual was reflective of a bloody Covenant that God had previously made with Israel; the Mosaic Covenant. The Jewish Passover involved the Sacrifices of innocent lambs; and on every door that a lamb’s blood was seen, those who took refuge inside were saved from God’s Wrath…

Jesus was born under the Law of Moses; just like the rest of us. You object, “That Covenant was made with the Jews and I am not a Jew.” The Bible says that those who do the things of the Law, show that the Law is written on their hearts; this includes everybody. Have you almost stole before? You didn’t steal it but thought about it; good job! Wait a minute; thou shall not Covet anything that belongs to someone else! Coveting is stealing in your heart! If God judged you by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you then go to Heaven or to Hell? The New Covenant is for people who do not want to go to an eternal fiery Hell. ~ Jesus was a man of Two Covenants, the old English word for Covenant is ‘Testament’; the Old Testament and the New Testament. Jesus kept the Old Covenant and since no one else has ever kept that Righteous Requirement, he shares his achievement with all who put their Faith in him as the risen Lord God and Savior. By Grace, you now have met the Righteous standard God requires in order to be pleasing in his sight! But the sad news is that Jesus had to suffer the penalty for our Sins; an honest trade, since God detests dishonest scales. Because Jesus was now responsible for your Sin, he was nailed to a Cross and shed his blood like an innocent lamb. The Good News is that Jesus rose from the dead conquering Death and Hell for you! Read your Bible, find a Gospel Church; and praise the Lord!

Many things that Jesus said applied to keeping the Old Covenant, but other things he said applied to the New Covenant. The Gospels could easily be the last four books of the Old Testament because of Christ’s keeping the Law of Moses, and because he refined the Law in ways that show us it’s easier to break than we think. ~ This overlapping is like a handshake; the Old fingers reach across the new hand and the New fingers reach across the Old hand. To understand the Gospels, read the Book of Galatians and the rest of the New Testament Epistles; this will help you know when Jesus is speaking about Law or about Grace…

Hebrews 8:13 NET; When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.

 

[Ritajanice]

...the way Arminians want them to.

Well said, Amen!!....

• Could it be that many who claim to know the Lord really aren’t born again but instead have only been “enlightened” by coming closer to the Kingdom of God?