The Doctrines of Grace

[Hey You!]

Providence ~ by ReverendRV * August 20

Psalm 145:13 NET; Your kingdom is an eternal kingdom, and your dominion endures through all Generations.

There are many false teachings about religion and often they infiltrate our thinking, causing us to have a point of view that God didn’t mean for us to have. Our verse reminds me of a couple of errors that have crept into the Church. ~ Open Theism believes in a Christ-like God, but one who has left us to our own devices; because he isn’t Omniscient. Deism is the belief that an unknown God created everything, and also left us to our own devices. Who would want a God that would leave us and not use his own devices for our sake? ~ The evidence that the Church has been infiltrated by these false beliefs is the diminishing of a very important teaching from the Bible; God’s Providence. You ask, “What exactly is Providence?”

God has the right to Govern his Creation; an everlasting Dominion that endures through all generations of humanity. In the Garden of Eden God gave Man Dominion over the world as its Governor; likewise God is our Governor. When we welcome our own Dominion, we validate the Dominion of others; if God is real; he IS your Governor. ~ The Theologian Jacob Arminius teaches us this, ‘My sentiments respecting the Providence of God are these: It is present with, presides over all things, according to their essences, qualities, relations, actions, passions, places, times, stations, and habits, are subject to its governance, conservation, and direction. I except neither particular, sublunary, vile, nor contingent things, not even the free wills of men or of angels, either good or evil: And, still more; I don’t take away from the divine Providence governing even Sins themselves, whether we consider their commencement, their progress or their termination.’ ~ But you object, “How then is it even my fault when I Lie or steal??” The answer is found in the Bible; Jeremiah said that Judah sacrificed their children in a fire to a false Idol; but God said it never entered his Heart and Mind to ‘Cause’ them to Sin. And the Bible says when Joseph’s brothers sold him into Slavery, that the brothers meant it for evil but God Meant it for Good; to save many lives…

Through his Providence, God governs us in a way that he is NOT the Author of Sin. The Bible says that one of God’s names is translated as “God will Provide”; God does provide us a way of escape! In the Old Testament Abraham was sent by God to sacrifice his only begotten son. His son Isaac noticed there was no animal for the offering, but Abraham knew that God would provide a lamb. As Abraham was about to Sacrifice his son, God stopped him and testified of their Faith. Over to the side there was a ram caught in a thicket of thorns by its horns; God provided a Substitute for the Sacrifice! The Lord Jesus Christ is our Substitute who was executed for our Sins; the religious people of that day meant this for evil, but God meant it for our good. Put your Faith in the Risen Lord Savior Jesus Christ and your Sins will be Forgiven; you will not have to pay the eternal Punishment for them in Hell. Repent of your Sin, confess Jesus Christ as your LORD; and find a Church that will help you along your way. ~ We need a God who won’t leave us without the use of his devices. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith; not by our own devices…

Genesis 22:8a ESV; Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.”

 

[Hey You!]

What do YOU think the differences are?

That will take a long time to talk about...

If I picked one point to start with, I would say Hyper Calvinists would like to replace Sola Fide from the 5-Solas with Sola Elektos...

I would say that Calvinists would die to Protect Sola Fide / Faith Alone; just ask Martin Luther. Hyper Calvinists would die to protect Election Alone / Sola Elektos...

 

[Ritajanice]

A misunderstanding of Scripture does not make your quotation of certain passages give one credibility.

None of this is Biblical...there is no misunderstanding that...No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit.

1Corinthians 12:1,
Now about the gifts of the Spirit

That is the subject matter of chapter 12 of 1Corinthians.

Miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Tongue speaking, you cant do this.

Casting out demons, can't be done today.
Prophecy, cant be done today.
Miraculous interpretation of tongues, cant be done today.

Absolute nonsense.

1Corinthians 12:3,
- therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus be cursed and no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit

You cannot understand the passage if you leave the context.

Your not understanding the context, that’s for sure..

Those endowed with miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit will not say Jesus is not Messiah, for they work miracles by God indwelling them.

Not biblical.

So these people are Spirit filled with miraculous power.
They will say Jesus is Lord because they already were taught the gospel.
They are already believed the gospel.
They are already saved by the gospel.
And now the apostles have laid hands on them to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

We are in the now , not 2,000 years ago.

So these individuals will say Jesus is Lord because THEY ARE SPEAKING NOT OF THEMSELVES BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS SPEAKING THROUGH THEM.

The Holy Spirit in our spirit, testifies Of Jesus to our spirit?..Biblical.

Of course the Holy Spirit is going to proclaim, Jesus is Lord!!!

This passage does not teach about salvation as these people were already saved when they received the laying on of hands by the apostles.

We have believers in the Bible that believed in Jesus. No miraculous work of the Holy Spirit to come into their hearts needed.
They only needed to see the miracles of Jesus and hear the gospel from Jesus and His apostles.

John 12:42,
- Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Jesus but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him lest they should be put out of the synagogue

Believers who had no indwelling of the Spirit. No miraculous work on them directly from the Spirit.

And their faith alone did not save them.

We aren’t living 2,000 years ago.

We are in the now...the Born Again are in the now?

Being conformed into the image of Jesus?

How would I know that I am being conformed into the image of Jesus, ?

You imo are reading the Bible.quoting scripture without heart knowledge is no knowledge at all......do you understand what it means to be Born Of The Spirit?

I’ve already showed you scripture to support this....you are on a different wavelength to me...you understand scripture very differently to me...do you understand this scripture?

Romans 8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

Providence ~ by ReverendRV * August 20

Psalm 145:13 NET; Your kingdom is an eternal kingdom, and your dominion endures through all Generations.

There are many false teachings about religion and often they infiltrate our thinking, causing us to have a point of view that God didn’t mean for us to have. Our verse reminds me of a couple of errors that have crept into the Church. ~ Open Theism believes in a Christ-like God, but one who has left us to our own devices; because he isn’t Omniscient. Deism is the belief that an unknown God created everything, and also left us to our own devices. Who would want a God that would leave us and not use his own devices for our sake? ~ The evidence that the Church has been infiltrated by these false beliefs is the diminishing of a very important teaching from the Bible; God’s Providence. You ask, “What exactly is Providence?”

God has the right to Govern his Creation; an everlasting Dominion that endures through all generations of humanity. In the Garden of Eden God gave Man Dominion over the world as its Governor; likewise God is our Governor. When we welcome our own Dominion, we validate the Dominion of others; if God is real; he IS your Governor. ~ The Theologian Jacob Arminius teaches us this, ‘My sentiments respecting the Providence of God are these: It is present with, presides over all things, according to their essences, qualities, relations, actions, passions, places, times, stations, and habits, are subject to its governance, conservation, and direction. I except neither particular, sublunary, vile, nor contingent things, not even the free wills of men or of angels, either good or evil: And, still more; I don’t take away from the divine Providence governing even Sins themselves, whether we consider their commencement, their progress or their termination.’ ~ But you object, “How then is it even my fault when I Lie or steal??” The answer is found in the Bible; Jeremiah said that Judah sacrificed their children in a fire to a false Idol; but God said it never entered his Heart and Mind to ‘Cause’ them to Sin. And the Bible says when Joseph’s brothers sold him into Slavery, that the brothers meant it for evil but God Meant it for Good; to save many lives…

Through his Providence, God governs us in a way that he is NOT the Author of Sin. The Bible says that one of God’s names is translated as “God will Provide”; God does provide us a way of escape! In the Old Testament Abraham was sent by God to sacrifice his only begotten son. His son Isaac noticed there was no animal for the offering, but Abraham knew that God would provide a lamb. As Abraham was about to Sacrifice his son, God stopped him and testified of their Faith. Over to the side there was a ram caught in a thicket of thorns by its horns; God provided a Substitute for the Sacrifice! The Lord Jesus Christ is our Substitute who was executed for our Sins; the religious people of that day meant this for evil, but God meant it for our good. Put your Faith in the Risen Lord Savior Jesus Christ and your Sins will be Forgiven; you will not have to pay the eternal Punishment for them in Hell. Repent of your Sin, confess Jesus Christ as your LORD; and find a Church that will help you along your way. ~ We need a God who won’t leave us without the use of his devices. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith; not by our own devices…

Genesis 22:8a ESV; Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.”

Oh my goodness HY
The above sounds just like Calvinism.
It'll state that God governs everything and decrees everything
but it's still OUR FAULT when we sin...
how could this be??

God either does all predestinating or He does not.
I don't see how there could be a middle ground.

As to God meaning it for good....yes,,,all Christians believe that God could
take any situation and make it work for the good.

But Calvin taught that God CAUSES the sin, not only that He uses it for good.

Like I said,,,some churches use "soft" calvinism to keep everybody happy,,,
but it's still calvinism.

 

[Hey You!]

Oh my goodness HY
The above sounds just like Calvinism.
It'll state that God governs everything and decrees everything
but it's still OUR FAULT when we sin...
how could this be??

God either does all predestinating or He does not.
I don't see how there could be a middle ground.

As to God meaning it for good....yes,,,all Christians believe that God could
take any situation and make it work for the good.

But Calvin taught that God CAUSES the sin, not only that He uses it for good.

Like I said,,,some churches uses "soft" calvinism to keep everybody happy,,,
but it's still calvinism.

But it's not Hyper Calvinism, right?

Discussing how there can be a Middle Ground will take a while. But to cut to the Chase; it's believing All Scripture. Suppose the Bible said in one Verse, "The Sky is Blue". But in another Verse, the Bible says, "The Sky is Pink". We can scratch our heads for days about that, asking "How can that be??". But one day we drive home, and the Windshield is full of Pink Clouds at Sunset. We then realize that if we can't figure out the Bible, it's still True because of who said it...

I believe both sides; It never entered God's Mind to Cause Judah to Sin. But God Meant Joseph to be Sold into Slavery; the same Act Joseph's brothers Meant. It's the Meaning in an Act that makes the Act Good or Evil...

 

[GodsGrace]

But it's not Hyper Calvinism, right?

Discussing how there can be a Middle Ground will take a while. But to cut to the Chase; it's believing All Scripture. Suppose the Bible said in one Verse, "The Sky is Blue". But in another Verse, the Bible says, "The Sky is Pink". We can scratch our heads for days about that, asking "How can that be??". But one day we drive home, and the Windshield is full of Pink Clouds at Sunset. We then realize that if we can't figure out the Bible, it's still True because of who said it...

I believe both sides; It never entered God's Mind to Cause Judah to Sin...

That's a very wonderful thought.
I'm getting a little tired and this is such a deep topic...
I promise that I'll tell you more tomorrow...
I'll say this for now....I had to leave a denomination and I know how difficult it is.
The chances are you will not be leaving your church unless God really works in you...
but I would like to tell you why I think Calvinism teaches such bad doctrine.
Basically, it's these 3 ideas -- which I will explain tomorrow IF you're interested.
Calvinism changes the character of God.
It's heretical.
It's blasphemous.

You might already know why I say this if you've been reading along,,,
however, I will go through this again in the morning.

For now, love God and be peaceful.
'night.

 

[Hey You!]

That's a very wonderful thought.
I'm getting a little tired and this is such a deep topic...
I promise that I'll tell you more tomorrow...
I'll say this for now....I had to leave a denomination and I know how difficult it is.
The chances are you will not be leaving your church unless God really works in you...
but I would like to tell you why I think Calvinism teaches such bad doctrine.
Basically, it's these 3 ideas -- which I will explain tomorrow IF you're interested.
Calvinism changes the character of God.
It's heretical.
It's blasphemous.

You might already know why I say this if you've been reading along,,,
however, I will go through this again in the morning.

For now, love God and be peaceful.
'night.

Awesome! I hope we always remain friends; you'll notice me getting on to Calvinists a lot...

 

[PinSeeker]

Why do you think I call calvinists blasphemers?

Because of your ignorance.

Because they attribute to God what satan does.

According to Arminians. But really, they're accusing Calvinists of doing what hyper-Calvinists inadvertently do. Read the article I linked ~ it's short and to the point and really not an imposition at all ~ and maybe you'll understand. Here it is again...

Just because your Westminster confession states that God does not predestine sin...

because the Bible, every time it mentions God's predestination, refers to people, not actions, and because people are tempted to sin ~ because of Adam's and Eve's fall ~ and God does not tempt. He certainly tests people's faith, but that is very different than temptation or "causing them to sin" in any way. A test for you: when we pray ~ as Jesus taught us to ~ "lead us not into temptation," what do you think that means?

, immediately following the statement that God predestinates everything that occurs...

Yeah here we go again... This is not predestination, GodsGrace; God does not predestinate things, or actions, or events. Now, He may cause things to happen, but in other circumstances He allows things to happen, but in either case He uses these things to accomplish His purposes, and to glorify Himself, and for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Regarding people, what David says of himself in Psalm 139 is true for everyone, that, "in (His) book (are)written, every one of them, the days that were formed for (us), when as yet there was none of them." Which is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans 9 when he writes, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

.. does not mean that the reformed do not teach this.

So no, the reformed to not teach what you accuse them of teaching. At all.

It's pschizophrenic.

LOL!!! There's... no 'p'... LOL!!! Anyway... hoo-boy.

If God predestinated EVERYTHING...

Right, He didn't. So your premise itself is ridiculous. And that's the problem.

, which is reformed theology, then He also predestinated sin.

Yeah, nope and nope. See above.

Let's see what John Calvin states about predestinating sin:

Yes, let's do that. Fantastic.

2. That this distinction may be the more manifest, we must consider that the Providence of God, as taught in Scripture, is opposed to fortune and fortuitous causes.

By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day--viz. that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried.

If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death--

all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered (Mt. 10:30), will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. Hence they are merely instruments, into which God constantly infuses what energy he sees meet, and turns and converts to any purpose at his pleasure

Yes, which is to say there is no such thing as "chance" or "luck." You know, we all like to say, "Hey, there's a reason for everything," and "there's no such thing as luck." and "God is in charge." Is that just lip service? It shouldn't be; all those things are absolutely true, and that's exactly what John Calvin is saying here. He's not even talking about sin and whether it is caused by God or not. Notice Calvin's last sentence there (with your emphasis removed and mine added):

"all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered (Mt. 10:30), will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. Hence they are merely instruments, into which God constantly infuses what energy he sees meet, and turns and converts to any purpose at his pleasure."​

Grace and peace to you, GodsGrace.

 

[PinSeeker]

That will take a long time to talk about...

If I picked one point to start with, I would say Hyper Calvinists would like to replace Sola Fide from the 5-Solas with Sola Elektos...

I would say that Calvinists would die to Protect Sola Fide / Faith Alone; just ask Martin Luther. Hyper Calvinists would die to protect Election Alone / Sola Elektos...

Like. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Hey You!

 

[Hey You!]

Like. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Hey You!

Thanks...

I was bruisermiller, ReverendRV and BrotherMiller at CARM Forums...

 

[PinSeeker]

but I would like to tell you why I think Calvinism teaches such bad doctrine.

I think we know why. I do, anyway. <smile>

Calvinism changes the character of God.

That's not it.

It's heretical.

Nor is that.

It's blasphemous.

Nor is that.

<smile>

You might already know why I say this if you've been reading along,,,

We do. Certainly you don't mean this to be true... you would never intentionally do such things, but really, it's all about pride and self-indignation and even self-justification and self-glorification, really.

however, I will go through this again in the morning.

Oh great... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ritajanice]

Please don’t take credit for your knowledge of scripture...as there is no knowledge in you .all knowledge comes from the Spirit not the self..
Try not to make yourself look smart with biblical knowledge...as it’s no knowledge at all...if you don’t have “ HEART KNOWLEDGE

God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit​

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spiritwithin them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ

 

[KUWN]

BreadofLife takes the entire book of revelation literally.
No symbolism no figurative language.

You really need to understand what "literal" means when it comes to interpreting scripture. I take the book of Revelation literally, but I see symbolism in it also.

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh my goodness HY
The above sounds just like Calvinism.
It'll state that God governs everything and decrees everything
but it's still OUR FAULT when we sin...
how could this be??

God either does all predestinating or He does not.
I don't see how there could be a middle ground.

As to God meaning it for good....yes,,,all Christians believe that God could
take any situation and make it work for the good.

But Calvin taught that God CAUSES the sin, not only that He uses it for good.

Like I said,,,some churches use "soft" calvinism to keep everybody happy,,,
but it's still calvinism.

people beleive some seriously scary and down right blasphemous things my friend .
I suggest we simply just stick to the bible my friend . my goodness man makes what is simple so complicated
just to defend his own wicked beliefs . Time draws short my friend .
They gonna merge . can you see it . the false merger .
Soon enough the only one who gets the blame WILL BE GOD .
WELL the biblical GOD .
The churches are becoming nothing more than blamers of GOD and excusers of men . sad fact . most dont reliaze that .
accusers of GOD and justifiers of men . its getting bad my friend .

 

[Titus]

You really need to understand what "literal" means when it comes to interpreting scripture. I take the book of Revelation literally, but I see symbolism in it also.

You need to learn what literal interpretation method is.
Apparently you do not.

 

[KUWN]

You need to learn what literal interpretation method is.
Apparently you do not.

scholarly response. You have convinced me.

 

[Titus]

scholarly response. You have convinced me.

Literal interpretation method which is the method of interpretation you already claim to use.
Does not allow figurative interpretation, which you admitted is used in Revelation.

You are ignorant.
Study Biblical interpretation before accusing me of not knowing how to interpret Scripture.

I use the inductive method.

 

[GodsGrace]

Awesome! I hope we always remain friends; you'll notice me getting on to Calvinists a lot...

I have 2 friends that are Witnesses.
Friends could disagree on doctrine.
What's important is that they be civil to each and have respect
for each others statements by trying to understand them.
So, it matters not to me if you're calvinist in your theology...
I think it's an incorrect theology and I state why.
Civility is what counts - and honesty.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because of your ignorance.

Thanks Pin.
It's so pleasant to converse with you...
which is why I do it so seldomly....
Ad hominems come along when doctrine cannot be defended.
And you use a lot of ad hominems.

According to Arminians. But really, they're accusing Calvinists of doing what hyper-Calvinists inadvertently do. Read the article I linked ~ it's short and to the point and really not an imposition at all ~ and maybe you'll understand. Here it is again...

Stop being a Calvinist if you don't like what the teach.

because the Bible, every time it mentions God's predestination, refers to people, not actions,

You'll have to prove this because I don't agree and neither does any other Christian EXCEPT for the reformed/calvinists.

and because people are tempted to sin ~ because of Adam's and Eve's fall ~ and God does not tempt. He certainly tests people's faith, but that is very different than temptation or "causing them to sin" in any way. A test for you: when we pray ~ as Jesus taught us to ~ "lead us not into temptation," what do you think that means?

Wow. You sound like a mainline Christian!
You like?
Come over to our side!

If Jesus taught us LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION...
WHY does God, who predestinates EVERYTHING...lead us into temptation?

Schizophrenia rears its ugly head once again.

Yeah here we go again... This is not predestination, GodsGrace; God does not predestinate things, or actions, or events. Now, He may cause things to happen, but in other circumstances He allows things to happen, but in either case He uses these things to accomplish His purposes, and to glorify Himself, and for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

Sounding mainline again.
Come on over Pin....plenty of room for you on this side of the isle.

YOUR theology teaches that God predestinates everything.

Regarding people, what David says of himself in Psalm 139 is true for everyone, that, "in (His) book (are)written, every one of them, the days that were formed for (us), when as yet there was none of them." Which is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans 9 when he writes, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

You want to discuss Romans 9?
When I spent over 30 minutes to speak about it seriously and to which
YOU NEVER REPLIED....

Leave Romans 9 for the experts Pin. Of which YOU are not one,,as evidenced by your non-reply to my post.
And it's the Calvinists who interpret Romans 9 in their very own way with which NO OTHER DENOMINATION AGREES.

It must bother you that only Calvinists interpret scripture their very own way.
Or, at least, it should.

So no, the reformed to not teach what you accuse them of teaching. At all.

Happily, I post support for what I state...
something YOU do not do.

LOL!!! There's... no 'p'... LOL!!! Anyway... hoo-boy.

You're so sweet PIn.
I speak 3 languages...
How many do YOU speak?
See, you bring out the worst in me...this is why I tend not to post to you and ignore many
of your posts to me.

Right, He didn't. So your premise itself is ridiculous. And that's the problem.


Yeah, nope and nope. See above.


Yes, let's do that. Fantastic.


Yes, which is to say there is no such thing as "chance" or "luck." You know, we all like to say, "Hey, there's a reason for everything," and "there's no such thing as luck." and "God is in charge." Is that just lip service? It shouldn't be; all those things are absolutely true, and that's exactly what John Calvin is saying here. He's not even talking about sin and whether it is caused by God or not. Notice Calvin's last sentence there (with your emphasis removed and mine added):

Gee. Even English is misunderstood?

Let's go over it Pin...

"all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune.​

CALVIN'S STATEMENTS IN GREEN...

"all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune.

The above is stating that our CARNAL UNDERSTANDING will attribute evil to LUCK...
BUT....wait for it....
Calvin means something different....

But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered (Mt. 10:30), will look farther for the cause,​

But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered (Mt. 10:30), will look farther for the cause

The above is stating that those that believe that God counts every hair in our head will not accept LUCK...but will look further for the answer as to why things happen,,,
They will look further for the CAUSE.

Wait for it..the cause will be God.

and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God.​

and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God

And there you have it.
ALL EVENTS WHATSOEVER ARE GOVERNED BY THE SECRET COUNSEL OF GOD.

ALL EVENTS WHATSOEVER
ALL EVENTS

ARE GOVENERNED BY GOD.

With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God.​

With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God.

Even INANIMATE OBJECTS exert their force ONLY AS DIRECTED BY THE IMMEDIATE HAND OF GOD.
(and do as HE directs)

Hence they are merely instruments, into which God constantly infuses what energy he sees meet, and turns and converts to any purpose at his pleasure."​

Hence they are merely instruments, into which God constantly infuses what energy he sees meet, and turns and converts to any purpose at his pleasure."

THEREFORE,,,,THESE MERE INSTURMENTS GOD INFUSES WITH ENERGY AND CONVERTS THEM FOR ANY PURPOSE AS HE PLEASES.


Read it again Pin...and carefully.
If you don't like what it states
STOP BEING A CALVINIST because the above is what CALVINSITS BELIEVE.

In black and white.

 

[Marvelloustime]

people beleive some seriously scary and down right blasphemous things my friend .
I suggest we simply just stick to the bible my friend . my goodness man makes what is simple so complicated
just to defend his own wicked beliefs . Time draws short my friend .
They gonna merge . can you see it . the false merger .
Soon enough the only one who gets the blame WILL BE GOD .
WELL the biblical GOD .
The churches are becoming nothing more than blamers of GOD and excusers of men . sad fact . most dont reliaze that .
accusers of GOD and justifiers of men . its getting bad my friend .

@amigo de christo