The Doctrines of Grace

[BreadOfLife]

God Himself teaches us how to pray. God said nothing about how you presume we should pray.
You gave zero evidence, instead gave an opinion instead of Scriptural evidence for praying to the dead.
There is no scripture that says prayers to dead christians is approved of by God.
Catholics are always putting themselves in Gods authoritative position. Making their own authority being their own ideas based not on God telling us what to do but their own reasoning.

Psalm 19:13,
- keep back your servant from presumptuous sins, let them not rule over me, then I will be innocent and I will be blameless of great wrongdoing

Proverbs 3:5,
- trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

I see you do not listen, therefore this is falling on deaf ears.
I already told you that I dont have to prove this list of doctrines BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN THESE DOCTRINES.

You failed to prove where God instructs us in the new testament to pray to the dead, therefore you've proven nothing.
So, even if I believed in those doctrines you want me to prove(I don't) I'm not obligated since you have failed to give evidence only gave a response that is human reasoning.
Where does the new testament even claim that the dead in Christ hear the prayers of the living?

Your reasoning is pure imaginative speculation.

Sounds like a reasonable answer to someone who is ignorant of the Scriptures.
Doesn't work on me.

Any other reasons you'd like to make up?

Now you’re being dishonest . . .

The fact that you are demanding Scriptural proof for all of my claims shows that you absolutely adhere to the false man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Do your hoomework.

If you can’t prove Sola Scriptura from the Bible, they you are not only dishonest – you are a hypocrite . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And so you make an assumption that this includes praying to the dead.
Just your imagination Sir. It's not in the text you gave!!!!

I'll use your flawed reasoning.

By your logic I can,

Pray to Adam and Eve

Pray to Moses

Pray to King David

Pray to Mary mother of Jesus.

Pray to Paul

Pray to Peter

Pray to Noah

Pray to Rahab

Pray to John the baptizer

Extremely poor reasoning Sir.
And worst of all not based on any Scripture just mens imagination.

No surprise why the catholic church has so many false doctrines with this kind of reasoning.

I naver "assume" in a debate.

EVERY time you ASK a loved one to pray for YOU – you have prayed to them.
As I already showed a few posts back – to PRAY simply means to ASK.

Definition of the word “PRAY”:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

As you can plainly see - to ASK or to make a PLEA is the pimary definition.
"Adoration" or "worship" are secondary definitions.

Here is some Biblical proof of what I’m talking about . . .
Acts 27:34 - KJV
"Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not a hair fall from the head of any of you".

 

[GodsGrace]

Book, chapter and verse for what??

Can you be more specific?

As you know Bread....I think what you do here for the CC is horrible.

But, I do agree with you that there are no dead.....I think persons just mean alive on the earth...on this side. Even Protestants believe we are judged immediately after death.

But here are 2 questions for you:
Where does Rev 5:8 state we are to pray to the saints?

If saints can hear our prayer....does this mean they're omnipresent?
I thought only God was omnipresent.

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

And so you make an assumption that this includes praying to the dead.
Just your imagination Sir. It's not in the text you gave!!!!

I'll use your flawed reasoning.

By your logic I can,

Pray to Adam and Eve

Pray to Moses

Pray to King David

Pray to Mary mother of Jesus.

Pray to Paul

Pray to Peter

Pray to Noah

Pray to Rahab

Pray to John the baptizer

Extremely poor reasoning Sir.
And worst of all not based on any Scripture just mens imagination.

No surprise why the catholic church has so many false doctrines with this kind of reasoning.

Titus
The CC has great theologians that teach quite extensively.
Some doctrine that the CC teaches is NOT found in scripture...but they believe it is.
This is OK.
Every denomination has some doctrine or other that is not upheld by scripture.
I would ask that you don't allow Bread to turn you off to a church that has been here from the beginning,
has gone astray somewhat, but still retains many of the original teachings found in the NT.

 

[GodsGrace]

I naver "assume" in a debate.

EVERY time you ASK a loved one to pray for YOU – you have prayed to them.
As I already showed a few posts back – to PRAY simply means to ASK.

Definition of the word “PRAY”:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

As you can plainly see - to ASK or to make a PLEA is the pimary definition.
"Adoration" or "worship" are secondary definitions.

Here is some Biblical proof of what I’m talking about . . .
Acts 27:34 - KJV
"Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not a hair fall from the head of any of you".

HOW
did a thread on the reformed faith
become
an attack on the CC??

Could it be your attitude??
I'll be the OP is happy...
The reformed hate the CC.

Which is kind of funny since Augustine was Catholic.

 

[GodsGrace]

No – Protestants just chose to follow the “authority” of a false prophet who proclaimed a false “Christ“ when he deleted 7 Books.

Had it not been for the council of their contemporaries - men like Philip Melanchton – Luther and Calvin wanted to remove Books from the NT as well.
Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Book of Revelation were on the chopping block until cooler heads prevailed.

No – they studies from the Septuagint as we see from the references to it in the NT.

That seems to be your response every time you’re stumped . . .


No – there is nothing in them that is heterodox.

The prayers in are FOR the dead – not “TO” the dead. Judah’s prayers on 2 Macc. 12:42-46, were FOR his armies, who died in battle.

With regard to praying TO the dead - the verses you presented are irrelevant because they are about necromancy. They deal with seeking oracles from the dead, which is what id prohibited. Asking fellow members of the Body of Christ to pray FOR us is not prohibited. Those in Heaven are STILL part of the Body of Christ (Heb. 12:1). And they intercede on our behalf (Rev. 5:8).

Then explain to me how a person with Epignosis is not a born-again believer.


Then PROVE it from the verses I provided . . .

Matt.. 7:12
Matt. 11:25
Matt. 7:16, 20

Not it wouldn’t because you cherry-pick verses about promises - and ignore the ones that contain the conditions for them.

Throwing away a gift from God does not make me “more powerful” than Him. Tell that to all of those people who have committed suicide . . .


Sooooo – apostasy is not real??

Not much more I can add as you see everything through Calvinist Goggles instead of Biblical reality . . .

As I told you before – you can find further definitions in the NT (1 Cor. 13:1-23, Gal. 5:6).
They’re not at odds with the definition in Heb. 11:1, Rather, they complement each other.

Faith without love is not faith at all (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6).

And, if this is what you consider to be surrender – it’s not in the definition of faith thatPaqul gibes us in

I’m fine with that. But, as I said before – it’s NOT part of the definition in Heb. 11:1 . . .

I don't care to speak to Pinseeker. He giggles too much.

But why don't you advise some curios Christians that the Apocrypha was a part of the PROTESTANT NT until 1800AD?

The Society did include the Apocrypha in Bibles for use in continental Europe, where it was normal for Protestant as well as Catholic readers to have the texts of the Apocrypha. Prior to 1629, all English-language Bibles included the Old Testament, the Apocrypha, and the New Testament; examples include the "Matthew's Bible (1537), the Great Bible (1539), the Geneva Bible (1560), the Bishop's Bible (1568), and the King James Bible (1611)".[1] Robert Haldane criticised this policy.[2]

source: Apocrypha controversy - Wikipedia

 

[Titus]

I naver "assume" in a debate

You gave zero scripture to back up your private interpretation of why you think we should pray to the dead. The scriptures you gave SAY NOTHING ABOUT PRAYING TO THE DEAD.
You assumed that we pray to the dead.
Now you're claiming you didn't.

This new comment below, you have made exposes that you are dishonest and already knew your attempt to show that there are verses in the new testament about praying to the dead are not found in the new testament.

Now you’re being dishonest . . .

The fact that you are demanding Scriptural proof for all of my claims shows that you absolutely adhere to the false man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Do your hoomework

Thanks for exposing yourself. You made my job easy.

Why didn't you tell the truth in the first place that you have no new testament scriptures for praying to the dead.

Now you are claiming you dont have to show Bible verses about your made up catholic doctrines.

Also,
All I've asked you is one question.
Where in the new testament does it teach we are to pray to the dead?

An honest person would have responded that we dont have any Bible verses to back up our teaching on this subject.

Instead you use a horrible tactic by saying I dont have to because you cant prove that we must go by the Bible alone.

That is such a poor argument that it shows your desperation.

If I told you that I dont believe in Sola Scripture, it would not help your position.

You have to prove praying to the dead is in the new testament because you already claimed it was!!!!
Now you changed your argument because you knew it wasn't. So now your new position is I dont have to.

Proving you knew all along this doctrine is not in the new testament.

Very dishonest but expected.

 

[Titus]

I would ask that you don't allow Bread to turn you off to a church that has been here from the beginning

That's another false claim made by the Roman papacy.
They cannot trace their history back to penetcost in Acts 2.

The church of Christ never ceased to exist during the formation of the catholic church and to the present.

I'm not a protestant nor a papist.

I'm simply a Christian in the Lords church, Romans 16:16

The church the apostles are members of to this day.
There is only one church, Ephesians 4:4
And all the saved are in the Lords church.

All other churches including the catholic church are counterfeit.

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't care to speak to Pinseeker. He giggles too much.

Ha! Now that's funny. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, GG.

 

[Titus]

Grace and peace to you, GG

Calvinist's never hold to what they claim to believe.
Your god may by determined sovereign decree desire GG to burn in hell for all eternity.
So since you dont know your gods will for GG. You could be going against his will by desiring her grace and peace.

Your calvinist god may not want her to receive his grace.

 

[PinSeeker]

How do I know? Because, I believe in the Word of God (Rev. 5:8).

You believe what you think Revelation 5:8 says (or just what you've been told, maybe), which is very much incorrect, which I was very clear on in my last post. Again, a key element in this vision is the scroll. The scroll is a heavenly book containing God’s plan and the destiny of the world. The unsealing of the book implies the accomplishment of the things God has purposed ~ during this life over the course of the millennium, the thousand years of Revelation 20, which we are in the midst of now. In Revelation 5:8, what is in view there is the prayers of the saints ~ our prayers, here on earth, during our lives on this planet, to our triune God, of course, and no one else ~ over the course of the millennium/thousand years, which, again, is the period between Pentecost and His return. Through Jesus, BreadOfLife, we have direct access to God and His throne of grace; Jesus is our Mediator.

Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels doing the same thing.

Ah, well, yes, but the same thing... in reference to what I said (and repeated directly above).

And, when YOU thank someone for their prayers – are you “worshiping” them?

What a silly question, as if that is what I was suggesting, or as if that were the implication of what I said...

You deny the intercession of the saints in Heaven (Rev. 5:8) . . .

Yes; Christ Jesus makes intercession for us. As Isaiah writes, quoting God Himself, who is obviously speaking of Jesus, "Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12) And the writer of Hebrews says of Jesus, "Consequently, He is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

Now, as Paul says, "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people," (1 Timothy 2:1), but in mentioning intercession, he is obviously writing of that in a different sense, that being for us Christians in our lives here on earth to pray for each other. And again, this is the same sense as Revelation 5:8.

Yes – thew saints in Heaven are interceding by taking OUR prayers to God.

Nope. See above. We have direct access through Jesus to God. Jesus Himself says, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." And Paul is very clear in his letters that, "Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Romans 5:2), "For through (Jesus) we both..." (Jew and Gentile) "...have access in one Spirit to the Father" (Ephesians 2:18), and "...in Whom..." (Jesus, of course) "...we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in Him" (Ephesians 3:12).

That’s what we do for each other here on earth.

Sure, absolutely. We pray for each other... bear one another's burdens. Absolutely.

Intercession is something that WE do for each other. Mediation is what only Jesus does.

Absolutely. And there is nothing beyond that, contrary to your repeated assertions regarding of Revelation 5:8.

The only thing you’re doing here is accepting the fact that you are in full denial.

LOL!!!

I gave you the FULL definition of “Pray”, proving to you that it doesn’t just mean “worship”. The truth is that it just doesn’t fit in YOUR narrow box.

LOL!!! I never suggested such. Nor would I. Goodness gracious.

First of all - that’s NOT the full definition of “Epignosis”. “Believing from the heart” is an essential element of Epignosis.

It can be. Epignosis ~ yes, complete knowledge ~ is a general concept; we can have complete knowledge of anything, even regarding the Bible, but still, "regard it as foolishness," as Paul puts it 1 Corinthians 2:14, writing that "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." He doesn't say anything there regarding the knowledge of the natural person, and we can easily take from that that the natural person may indeed have a prodigious knowledge of the things of the Spirit, and the Word of God, but still regard it all as folly. Yes, Paul says the natural person is not able to understand the things of the Spirit, but this is because of the spirit that is in him/her... he/she has not been given a new spirit ~ received the Holy Spirit ~ from God.

And according to the following non—Catholic scholarship...

Ah, yes, scholars... <smile>

This comes down to what the Bible teaches, versus the false Calvinist doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” . . .

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5)​

I still have yet to hear any alternative understanding of Peter's words here. Do you not believe, BreadOfLife, that we have been born again... to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time?

God uses everything. That doesn’t mean that it is His WILL. He knows our choices – and EVERY sin we are going to commit and uses those instances. But, He doesn’t will them.

Goodness gracious. Here again, I didn't suggest otherwise, nor would I. As I said, God is not the author of sin, and He uses sin sinlessly.

A person’s “desire” IS a person’s “will”.

Anyone would ~ well, should, anyway ~ assert that a person acts contrary to his or her real desire from time to time, that he or she wills against his or her desire, and for good reason, for the most part. So it is with God, except that His reasons, of course, are always good/perfect, and according to and/or for His own glory.

Why?

<smile>

The Church is “WE”. ALL of us are ONE Body.

All of us believers, yes. But your "we," on the other hand, smacks of idolatry.

And we didn’t “add” to the bible...

Yes you did... Well, you didn't, but... <smile>

Interesting that YOU can’t refute anything I said about where YOUR Protestant Fathers got THEIR OT Canon . . .

Regarding the Word of God, I don't attribute anything, really, to "Protestant Fathers."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Calvinist's never hold to what they claim to believe.

"Calvinist's"... what? the 'apostrophe-s' indicates possession of something, Titus... <chuckles> Sorry; just poking a little fun atcha... Come on, now, don't get hot and bothered, laugh a little... <smile>

Anyway... Such a blanket statement without any explanation; we see a lot of that on this forum...

Your god may by determined sovereign decree desire GG to burn in hell for all eternity.

Well no, but God certainly "makes some for dishonorable use," which is His right as Creator, and then "endures them with much patience," and this is because He has decreed, yes, "to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy," those created for honorable use, "those whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles," as Paul says in Romans 9. So, here I would say to you, Titus, what I said above to @BreadOfLife (regarding 1 Peter 1:3-5 and the perseverance of the saints), that I have yet to hear any kind of alternate understanding of what Paul says in Romans 9, particularly verses 19-24. Now, yes, if anyone were to say that what Paul says in Romans 9-11 is hard to accept for what it is, I would certainly agree with that.

So since you dont know your gods will for GG.

Right, I don't. And you're not saying you do, I hope...

You could be going against his will by desiring her grace and peace.

Well, I guess you could say the same thing to/about Moses, who does that in Numbers 6, and Paul, who does that over and over and over again in all his letters. But that would be quite ridiculous.

Your calvinist god may not want her to receive his grace.

He may have created her for dishonorable use. I hope not, though, certainly. And, judging by her zeal for God's Word, I think probably not, but that's just my personal judgment. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Titus.

 

[Titus]

1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

for the whole world. This is a generic term, referring not to every single individual, but to mankind in general.

You just admitted that,
- but also for the whole world is in general.

That proves it is not speaking specifically of the elect.

1John 2:3,
- and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins(saved, elect) and not for ours only(saved,elect) but also for those of the whole world

In general you admitted, He died to save the world in a general sense.
Therefore this includes everyone.

 

[Titus]

Right, I don't. And you're not saying you do, I hope.

You just admitted that you could be going against your gods will.
My belief that calvinist' never hold to their doctrine is 100% correct.

We are commanded to do the will of the Father,
Matthew 7:21,
- Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but  only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven

You just admitted you go against God.
And Jesus tells you that those who go against Gods will, will not be in heaven.

Calvinist's are very confused.

Its easy to prove you go against your religious claims.

Do aborted babies go to hell?

 

[GodsGrace]

That's another false claim made by the Roman papacy.
They cannot trace their history back to penetcost in Acts 2.

The church of Christ never ceased to exist during the formation of the catholic church and to the present.

I'm not a protestant nor a papist.

I'm simply a Christian in the Lords church, Romans 16:16

The church the apostles are members of to this day.
There is only one church, Ephesians 4:4
And all the saved are in the Lords church.

All other churches including the catholic church are counterfeit.

I'm not speaking about the Papacy.

Do you believe there was an earthly church/institution shortly after Jesus returned to heaven?

Matthew 16:18 Jesus said:
....upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Which church do you believe Jesus was referring to in the above statement by Him?

Ephesians 4:4 states that we are all united in the Body of Christ.
Does some version of the bible use the word "church"?

 

[GodsGrace]

Ha! Now that's funny. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, GG.

Ditto Pinseeker.
It's not that I don't like you....you just make me a bit nervous...
<smile>

 

[Titus]

Do you believe there was an earthly church/institution shortly after Jesus returned to heaven?

Matthew 16:18 Jesus said:
....upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Which church do you believe Jesus was referring to in the above statement by Him?

I'm glad you are asking questions.

I dont know what you mean by "earthly church".

There is the church in the wilderness that was an earthly kingdom, the old physical Jewish kingdom.

Christ established His church when He died on the cross.

That one church, Ephesians 4:4 is the church He spoke of to Peter in Matthew 16:18-19

The new testament church is not an earthly physical church.
It is a spiritual church.
Now it is on earth because as I'm guessing you already understand that the church is not a building but the saved in Christ.
But notice that saints in the church are dead physically therefore the church is also not all on this earth.
Therefore Jesus uses the church and the Kingdom interchangeably in Matthew 16:18-19.
Jesus is teaching us that the church is the Kingdom of God.

So the church is Christs body. Remember Jesus is referred to as the Head of His church but also the bridegroom of the church.

Ecclesia is feminine in the greek.

So to answer your second question,

Ephesians 4:4 states that we are all united in the Body of Christ.
Does some version of the bible use the word "church

Ephesians 4:4,
- there is ONE body and one Spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling

ALL VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE TEACH THE BODY OF CHRIST IS HIS CHURCH.

The church is His bride.

Colossians 1:18,
- and Jesus is the Head of His body, the  church who is the beginning the firstborn from the dead...

Ephesians 1:22-23,
- and hath put all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, which is His body...

Ephesians 5:23,
- for the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is Head of the church and He is the Savior of the  body

Ephesians 5:26,
- that Jesus might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water(baptism) by the word(Holy Spirit revelation)

See the church is the Kingdom and Christ cleanses His church(the body, saved people with His blood when we get baptized into Him).

Ephesians 5:26 church.
Parallels John 3:5 kingdom.

John 3:5,
- except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God


In Matthew 16:18-19,
The church keys fit the kingdom
And the Kingdoms keys fit the church

The body of Christ is the saved.
The saved are added to the church which also means they are added to His kingdom.

God adds us to His kingdom when we believe and obey His new testament gospel.

Acts 2:47,
- praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm glad you are asking questions.

I dont know what you mean by "earthly church".

There is the church in the wilderness that was an earthly kingdom, the old physical Jewish kingdom.

Christ established His church when He died on the cross.

That one church, Ephesians 4:4 is the church He spoke of to Peter in Matthew 16:18-19

The new testament church is not an earthly physical church.
It is a spiritual church.
Now it is on earth because as I'm guessing you already understand that the church is not a building but the saved in Christ.
But notice that saints in the church are dead physically therefore the church is also not all on this earth.
Therefore Jesus uses the church and the Kingdom interchangeably in Matthew 16:18-19.
Jesus is teaching us that the church is the Kingdom of God.

So the church is Christs body. Remember Jesus is referred to as the Head of His church but also the bridegroom of the church.

Ecclesia is feminine in the greek.

So to answer your second question,


Ephesians 4:4,
- there is ONE body and one Spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling

ALL VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE TEACH THE BODY OF CHRIST IS HIS CHURCH.

The church is His bride.

Colossians 1:18,
- and Jesus is the Head of His body, the  church who is the beginning the firstborn from the dead...

Ephesians 1:22-23,
- and hath put all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, which is His body...

Ephesians 5:23,
- for the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is Head of the church and He is the Savior of the  body

Ephesians 5:26,
- that Jesus might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water(baptism) by the word(Holy Spirit revelation)

See the church is the Kingdom and Christ cleanses His church(the body, saved people with His blood when we get baptized into Him).

Ephesians 5:26 church.
Parallels John 3:5 kingdom.

John 3:5,
- except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God


In Matthew 16:18-19,
The church keys fit the kingdom
And the Kingdoms keys fit the church

The body of Christ is the saved.
The saved are added to the church which also means they are added to His kingdom.

God adds us to His kingdom when we believe and obey His new testament gospel.

Acts 2:47,
- praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Interesting Titus!
But it's going to have to wait till after dinner....a couple of hours.

 

[Titus]

Interesting Titus!
But it's going to have to wait till after dinner....a couple of hours.

Good, I love you Italians!!!

 

[ElectedbyHim]

You just admitted that,
- but also for the whole world is in general.

That proves it is not speaking specifically of the elect.

1John 2:3,
- and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins(saved, elect) and not for ours only(saved,elect) but also for those of the whole world

In general you admitted, He died to save the world in a general sense.
Therefore this includes everyone.

converted believers are the elect, the elect are converted believers.