The Doctrines of Grace

[Titus]

With regard to praying TO the dead

Hello, can you produce Bible verses that command us to pray to the dead in the new testament?
Thank you.

 

[Verily]

Hello, can you produce Bible verses that command us to pray to the dead in the new testament?
Thank you.

BreadOfLife also stated that no one in the body of Christ is really dead anyway.

But if we just agree in prayer with those on earth, its all good

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You were. Irrelevant ~ we were addressing Catholicism and prayer to the dead.

We were discussing BOTH of those items – separately..

YOUR responded was against praying TO the saints in Heaven - when I was discussing the Jewish Mourner’s Kaddish, which is a prayer FOR the dead.

Okay. Relevance? None...

If I addressed them separately – them respond to them separately . . .

Well not those who are still alive, who haven't physically died yet, I agree. <smile> Everyone who has died is deceased... physically dead. Now, if you want to change what we're talking about and talk about the spiritual world... But that's not what we've been talking about.

When you say that they can’t pray for us because they are dead – you show that you don’t believe in the Body of Christ or the power of God. Remember a little thing called the Transformation? Were Moses and Elijah not speaking with Jesus?

You also deny Heb. 12:1, which tells us that we are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses” – so that we should live our lives accordingly.

.

Rev. 5:8 absolutely shows us the intercession of the saints in Heaven on our behalf.

Right, so you pray to them.
Good. You don't think you're saints like John Paul II is... excuse me, was. You know, before he died, and, regardless what it was or is for, you started praying to him.

I’ve got news for you –
YOU have prayed to ME in this thread – and I have prayed to YOU.

Prayer to the saints in Heaven is nothing more than a plea for prayer – just like asking your wife or brother or friend to pray for you.

The PRIMARY definition of the word “Pray” has nothing to do with worship:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

To pray simple means to ASK. When Protestants attribute this to “worship” of the saints in Heaven – you are guilty of bearing FALSE WITNESS.

Acts 27:34 - KJV
"Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you".

If you think so, you don't know the Bible nearly as well as you think you do.

No, not really. See below . . .

Good catch, and good for you; I agree. Yeah, I thought about that 'perfect' after shortly after posting, but didn't think it necessary to remove it, really. But yes, I agree with you on that.

Hey – we agree on something!
I’m sure we agree on much more . . .

LOL! So you're avoiding my (very relevant) question, which was clearly my answer to your question; there was no dodge. So here; I'll ask it again, minus the word 'perfect,' of course, and anything that might cause any confusion or concern:

You said, "explain to me how a person with Epignosis is not a born-again believer."​

​

And I said (cutting out anything questionable), "Ah, well, I'll answer with a question to you (from which I think you will be able to discern my answer to your question, here): Do you believe one can have full, complete intellectual and experiential knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ but still not believe it from the heart? ​

Answer the question, BreadOfLife. Not a big ask. You might read Romans 10:9, where Paul makes it obvious that believing something from the heart is far, far more than just intellectual assent. Answer the question, and if you answer it like any other person with an IQ above, say, three, you will have my answer to your question. Obviously ~ both here and in my previous post ~ if you answer my question correctly, my answer to your question will obviously be the opposite of your answer to mine.

I was never “afraid” to answer your question. It just couldn’t be answered as asked.

As to your revised question – you are essentially asking me if someone can have Epignosis and NOT believe from the heart. Then answer is no because believing from the heart is an essential element of Epignosis.

But that can't be taken in isolation from the numerous references that I've related regarding the God's giving us this salvific faith we have and the Spirit's maintaining this faith within us to the day of Christ. If we have the Spirit, we will endure in the faith.

Sure -
IF we continue in the Spirit.
IF we remain in Christ.

And now you're saying again, in effect, that we are more powerful than God, that our will can, oh, "outdo," or overrule, God's will. Such is surely not the case. Jesus knew very well ~ especially as the second Person of the triune God ~ that nothing is done outside God's will, and that our prayers are only effectual when they are in concert with God's will. This is not to say that we are "helpless" or that our prayers are ineffectual or any kind of exercise in futility; God has ordained that the prayers of His people be used in accomplishing His will, and this is our participation in His accomplishing His will, and it is a great privilege for us to do so.

“Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven” is a prayer – a supplication.
It’s NOT the normal condition of the world.

As long as there is sin in the world – it will never produce the perfect will of God. As I stated before – 1 Tim. 2:3-4 states that God’s will is for ALL too be saved and come to a knowledge (Epignosis) of the truth. We BOTH know that this has never – and will never be the case because we live in a sinful world.

Desires, BreadOfLife. Even God overrules His own desires sometimes, and this is for His own glory. Come on, now, you're smarter than this, I know. <smile> No purpose of God's can be thwarted. If He wills something, it will come to fruition, and in His timing, especially with regard to who is saved and when. Again, here, I could cite several passages, but just look at Acts 13, specifically verses 44-48:

"The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, 'It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth."' And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Who do you think does that appointing, BreadOfLife? And when? <smile>

Sorry - the Greek word used here is τηελο (thel'-o ).

It is defined as:
1) to will, have in mind, intend 1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

It is God’s WILL – His intent. His purpose, His resolve - that ALL be saved and come to a knowledge of truth. That AIN’T gonna happen – and it’s NOT because we’re “more powerful” than God. It’s because of SIN and out proclivity toward it.

Continued . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

continued . . .

Ah, well, the answer to that regarding on earth, is really 'no' in one sense, but 'yes' in another. Surely it is not His will that we sin, or that there is sin and suffering in the world. But even that sin and suffering serves His purposes. This is what John's Revelation is all about, and why, well, as John says in Revelation 1:3, "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it." ,

Correct. His will is served by everything that takes place on earth – but His will is not that we sin.

They did.

Nope. That's what your Catholic Fathers have taught you, but no.

Nope – the Catholic Church added nothing to Scripture.

No – as a Protestant, you’ve been weaned on the fairy tale that your Protestant Father didn’t delete any Books and that the Catholic Church “added” some. You refuse to see that what those Fathers did during their ecclesial divorce was to accept a flawed canon from a non-Authoritative source.

If you don’t believe ne – just look up the Rabbinical Council at Jabneh (Jamnia) after the destruction of the Temple during the time of Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137). Read about his endorsement of a false messiah, Simon Bar Kokhba.

That’s where your Protestant Fathers got their OT Canon.

Not "elements of" faith, but outward evidence of the saving faith given to us.

Grace and peace to you.

No - it's part of what faith is . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hello, can you produce Bible verses that command us to pray to the dead in the new testament?
Thank you.

Sure – as soon as YOU show me the verses that commands us to believe in:
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
A Pre-Trib “Rapture”
Accepting Christ as ”personal Lord and Savior”
Limited Atonement

 

[Titus]

Sure – as soon as YOU show me the verses that commands us to believe in:
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
A Pre-Trib “Rapture”
Accepting Christ as ”personal Lord and Savior”
Limited Atonement

That's totally unfair!!! What kind of reasoning is that?

Also I don't believe half of the things you want me to prove, lol

So you know more about my religious beliefs, I reject all of reformed theology that includes Orginal sin aka Inherited sin

I'm the furthest thing from a calvinist that you will come across.

I believe one can loose their salvation so I dont believe in perseverance of the saints.

I detest Limited atonement. Now I'm not the radical opposite universalist either.

I believe you get elected by Gods gospel.
You by free will accept Jesus' gospel or you reject Jesus' gospel. Free moral agency

So unconditional election is also unbiblical heresy.

That would logically follow that irresistible grace is a heresy if unconditional election is error.

Gods grace is conditional. Conditioned on our obedience to Jesus' commandments in His gospel.

As you can see I reject faith only salvation. That too is a heresy.

Dont believe in the rapture either.

We both. Know why you gave no Scripture for praying to the dead.

 

[PinSeeker]

We were discussing BOTH of those items – separately..

<eyeroll>

When you say that they can’t pray for us because they are dead

Not what I said...

Although to this, does your Catholic catechism allow dead people to pray for you? And how do you know they do? And, do you thank them, or... praise/worship them? And... please (please GOD) don't bring up Revelation 5:8 again...

And how do you know they do?

You also deny

I deny nothing in the Bible, of course.

Rev. 5:8 absolutely shows us the intercession of the saints in Heaven on our behalf.

Oh, darn, you did it anyway... <smile> It does not. This kind of understanding results from a common misunderstanding really of Revelation as a whole.

Okay, this is free information... <smile> A key element in this vision is the scroll. The scroll is a heavenly book containing God’s plan and the destiny of the world. The unsealing of the book implies the accomplishment of the things God has purposed ~ during this life over the course of the millennium, the thousand years of Revelation 20, which we are in the midst of now... since Jesus's resurrection and Pentecost and leading up to His return at the end of this age. Revelation 5:1-14 constitutes the opening scene for the first cycle of judgments (of seven, the last being Revelation 20 itself and leading into Revelation 21, that lead up to the Second Coming of Christ (in the sixth and seventh we actually see the return of Christ, and in this last one we see the final Judgment and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth.

But back to Revelation 5:8, what is in view there is the prayers of the saints ~ our prayers, here on earth, during our lives on this planet ~ over the course of the millennium/thousand years, which, again, is the period between Pentecost and His return.

YOU have prayed to ME in this thread – and I have prayed to YOU.

you are essentially asking me if someone can have Epignosis and NOT believe from the heart. Then answer is no

Thank you for answering. I was pretty sure that would be your answer. Disagree; again, the answer is yes, which is obvious in several more passages than the one I cited, Romans 10:9, but you know, that's all it takes, really... <smile>

because believing from the heart is an essential element of Epignosis.

Epignosis ~ complete intellectual understanding ~ is very possible while not believing from the heart. One can still understand it well and still think it foolishness, which, as Paul says, those who are not saved do. I'm not saying that all the unsaved understand well, of course, but some do. Some have a very thorough knowledge of the Bible and understand it well, but think the Gospel foolishness.

Sure - IF we continue in the Spirit. IF we remain in Christ.

And yet again, if you have the Spirit ~ and thus have Christ, just as we who have the Spirit are seated with Christ in the heavenly places in and through the Person of the Spirit ~ we will be kept by the Spirit in the power of God to the day of Christ. For the Christian, truly born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ, it is God who works in that person, both to ~ so that that person will ~ will and to work for God's good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

As long as there is sin in the world – it will never produce the perfect will of God.

That's true in one sense and not in another. For sure, sin is not God's will; perish the thought, of course. So in that sense, we agree. But, God uses sin to accomplish His purposes. Now, He doesn't "make people sin," or anything even close to that; God is not the author of sin by any means. But He works all things ~ all things, even the bad things people do ~ together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. It may sound simple, but this is a good way to put it: God uses sin sinlessly.

As I stated before – 1 Tim. 2:3-4 states that God’s will is for ALL too be saved and come to a knowledge (Epignosis) of the truth.

Yes, I know. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now. <smile> And if you continue in that understanding, you will remain so. <smile>

Sorry - the Greek word used here is τηελο (thel'-o ).

In most every English translation, BreadOfLife, the Greek word used there ~ yes, thelō ~ is translated as 'desires' or 'wants,' Paul himself uses the same word in many other verses, like Romans 7:18, where he says, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out." He's quite obviously talking about something he would like to happen, but that's not what ultimately does happen. It's the same in 1 Timothy 2:4.

Continued . . .

You reeeeeeeeeally should stop... <smile>

...the Catholic Church added nothing to Scripture.

They did. Interesting that you said 'we'...

Grace and peace to you, BreadOfLife.

 

[Titus]

BreadOfLife also stated that no one in the body of Christ is really dead anyway.

But if we just agree in prayer with those on earth, its all good

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Strange I did not get a notification from your comment to me?
Instead I stumbled upon it.

 

[Verily]

Strange I did not get a notification from your comment to me?
Instead I stumbled upon it.

No worries, that happens sometimes and it was just one of those drive by comments, you didnt need to answer me or anything. Its good.

 

[Titus]

No worries, that happens sometimes and it was just one of those drive by comments, you didnt need to answer me or anything. Its good.

I got this one notified to me, thanks

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's totally unfair!!! What kind of reasoning is that?

Also I don't believe half of the things you want me to prove, lol

So you know more about my religious beliefs, I reject all of reformed theology that includes Orginal sin aka Inherited sin

I'm the furthest thing from a calvinist that you will come across.

I believe one can loose their salvation so I dont believe in perseverance of the saints.

I detest Limited atonement. Now I'm not the radical opposite universalist either.

I believe you get elected by Gods gospel.
You by free will accept Jesus' gospel or you reject Jesus' gospel. Free moral agency

So unconditional election is also unbiblical heresy.

That would logically follow that irresistible grace is a heresy if unconditional election is error.

Gods grace is conditional. Conditioned on our obedience to Jesus' commandments in His gospel.

As you can see I reject faith only salvation. That too is a heresy.

Dont believe in the rapture either.

We both. Know why you gave no Scripture for praying to the dead.

Okay - but you ARE a Sola Scripturist.
Prove to me - from the BIBLE - that everything er belive in MUST be found on the pages of Scipoture.

The Bible IS Authorittative - but it's NOT our ONLY Authority. Jesus gave full Authority to His Church to represent Him (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, Hogn 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

 

[Titus]

Jesus gave full Authority to His Church to represent Him (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, Hogn 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

You are dodging.
You never answered my question.
Give a new testament verse that teaches we are commanded to pray to the dead.
You intentionally did not answer because you are dishonest.

I don't answer questions when I've already asked a question, with few exceptions.

Jesus' church is under His authority.
The catholic church takes the authority away from Christ and gives it to uninspired men i.e. pope.
The catholic church has zero authority to make their own doctrines apart from Gods new testament law, Galatians 1:6-8.
The catholic church never was nor never will be the church of Christ therefore has no authority.

 

[Titus]

The doctrine of Transsubstantiation (The bread and fruit of the vine in the Lords Supper Become the Literal Body and Blood of Jesus,

This religious error comes from a literal interpretation of Matthew 26:26-28,
Jesus said of the Bread,
- This is My Body
And of the cup,
- This is My blood

These statements must be interpreted figuratively as Jesus was actually present in flesh and blood when He said these things .

Jesus also said He was Bread, John 6:48,

Jesus said He was light John 8:12

Jesus said He was a door, John 10:7

Jesus said He was a vine, John 15:1

And many other things that must be taken figuratively.
To understand these statements literally is to misunderstand them!!!

A misuse of John 6:53-58 has caused some to believe the transsubstsntiation doctrine.

John 6 has no reference whatsoever to the Lords supper.
To use it in connection with the Lords supper is to misuse it!!!


If eating His flesh and drinking His blood means taking the Lords supper then everyone who eats of the bread receives eternal life, John 6:51.

The words of Christ are under consideration as the Lord said,
- it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life, John 6:63

The cup of blessing represents the blood of Christ and the beard represents the Body of Christ, 1Corinthians 10:16

No matter what man says or does the bread and the fruit of the vine do not become literal Body and blood of Christ

This is just one example of many that shows the catholic church perverts the Bible. They do not exegete , they corrupt and molest the word of God.
They add to it, which is a sin.
They detract from it, by teaching not to follow what God has breathed out, which is sin.

Now I'll be waiting for your new testament verse on Gods word commanding us to pray to the dead as the Roman papacy teaches.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Although to this, does your Catholic catechism allow dead people to pray for you? And how do you know they do? And, do you thank them, or... praise/worship them? And... please (please GOD) don't bring up Revelation 5:8 again...

How do I know? Because, I believe in the Word of God (Rev. 5:8). Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels doing the same thing. You should try it sometime . . .

And, when YOU thank someone for their prayers – are you “worshiping” them?

I deny nothing in the Bible, of course.

You deny the intercession of the saints in Heaven (Rev. 5:8) . . .

But back to Revelation 5:8, what is in view there is the prayers of the saints ~ our prayers, here on earth, during our lives on this planet ~ over the course of the millennium/thousand years, which, again, is the period between Pentecost and His return.

Yes – thew saints in Heaven are interceding by taking OUR prayers to God.
That’s what we do for each other here on earth.

Do you think God needs “help” collecting the souls of the dead? NO – but He uses the Angels to do His bidding (Mat. 13:37-43). Intercession is something that WE do for each other. Mediation is what only Jesus does.

The only thing you’re doing here is accepting the fact that you are in full denial.

I gave you the FULL definition of “Pray”, proving to you that it doesn’t just mean “worship”. The truth is that it just doesn’t fit in YOUR narrow box.

If I’m right – and the Bible says that I AM – YOU have to re-think your anti-Catholic opinions on the matter . . .

Thank you for answering. I was pretty sure that would be your answer. Disagree; again, the answer is yes, which is obvious in several more passages than the one I cited, Romans 10:9, but you know, that's all it takes, really... <smile>


Epignosis ~ complete intellectual understanding ~ is very possible while not believing from the heart. One can still understand it well and still think it foolishness, which, as Paul says, those who are not saved do. I'm not saying that all the unsaved understand well, of course, but some do. Some have a very thorough knowledge of the Bible and understand it well, but think the Gospel foolishness.

Wrong, again.

First of all - that’s NOT the full definition of “Epignosis”.
“Believing from the heart” is an essential element of Epignosis.

And according to the following non—Catholic scholarship, the definition of Epignosis is what I’ve been repeatedly posting – a full, experiential and relational knowledge:
-Richard Chenevix Trench
-Nathaniel Culverwell
-J.B. Lightfoot
-Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words
-The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon
-Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament

And yet again, if you have the Spirit ~ and thus have Christ, just as we who have the Spirit are seated with Christ in the heavenly places in and through the Person of the Spirit ~ we will be kept by the Spirit in the power of God to the day of Christ. For the Christian, truly born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ, it is God who works in that person, both to ~ so that that person will ~ will and to work for God's good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

This comes down to what the Bible teaches, versus the false Calvinist doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” . . .

That's true in one sense and not in another. For sure, sin is not God's will; perish the thought, of course. So in that sense, we agree. But, God uses sin to accomplish His purposes. Now, He doesn't "make people sin," or anything even close to that; God is not the author of sin by any means. But He works all things ~ all things, even the bad things people do ~ together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. It may sound simple, but this is a good way to put it: God uses sin sinlessly.

God uses everything. That doesn’t mean that it is His WILL.

He knows our choices – and EVERY sin we are going to commit and uses those instances. But, He doesn’t will them.

Yes, I know. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now. <smile> And if you continue in that understanding, you will remain so. <smile>

And, as YOU said – “Denial ain’t a river in Egypt” . . .

In most every English translation, BreadOfLife, the Greek word used there ~ yes, thelō ~ is translated as 'desires' or 'wants,' Paul himself uses the same word in many other verses, like Romans 7:18, where he says, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out." He's quite obviously talking about something he would like to happen, but that's not what ultimately does happen. It's the same in 1 Timothy 2:4.

A person’s “desire” IS a person’s “will”.

And just like almost every other language – there are different words that have similar definitions.
Don’t forget – “oida” or “gnosis” can be used for knowledge (intellectual), whereas, “epignosis” is a deeper knowledge

The normal Freek word for “belief” is πίστη (pis'-tis.). However, James 2 repeatedly uses the same root word for “faith” and “believe” – even when comparing the intellectual belief that the demons have compared to real faith.

The Greek word with a primary definition of “desire” is επιθυμία (epithymía).
τηελο (thel'-o ) is a word that CAN be used – but “desire” is its secondary definition.
τηελεμα (thel'-ay-mah) is the word John uses to describe the “will” of Jesus and the One who sent Him (John 6:38-40).

You reeeeeeeeeally should stop... <smile>

Yes, it’s getting harder for you to come up with real answers instead of the usual denials . . .

They did. Interesting that you said 'we'...

Grace and peace to you, BreadOfLife.

Why? The Church is “WE”. ALL of us are ONE Body.

And we didn’t “add” to the bible, as I have shown you.
Interesting that YOU can’t refute anything I said about where YOUR Protestant Fathers got THEIR OT Canon . . .

 

[Titus]

How do I know? Because, I believe in the Word of God (Rev. 5:8). Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels doing the same thing. You should try it sometime . . .

And, when YOU thank someone for their prayers – are you “worshiping” them?

You deny the intercession of the saints in Heaven (Rev. 5:8) . . .

Yes – thew saints in Heaven are interceding by taking OUR prayers to God.
That’s what we do for each other here on earth.

Do you think God needs “help” collecting the souls of the dead? NO – but He uses the Angels to do His bidding (Mat. 13:37-43). Intercession is something that WE do for each other. Mediation is what only Jesus does.

The only thing you’re doing here is accepting the fact that you are in full denial.

I gave you the FULL definition of “Pray”, proving to you that it doesn’t just mean “worship”. The truth is that it just doesn’t fit in YOUR narrow box.

If I’m right – and the Bible says that I AM – YOU have to re-think your anti-Catholic opinions on the matter . . .

Wrong, again.

First of all - that’s NOT the full definition of “Epignosis”.
“Believing from the heart” is an essential element of Epignosis.

And according to the following non—Catholic scholarship, the definition of Epignosis is what I’ve been repeatedly posting – a full, experiential and relational knowledge:
-Richard Chenevix Trench
-Nathaniel Culverwell
-J.B. Lightfoot
-Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words
-The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon
-Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament

This comes down to what the Bible teaches, versus the false Calvinist doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” . . .

God uses everything. That doesn’t mean that it is His WILL.

He knows our choices – and EVERY sin we are going to commit and uses those instances. But, He doesn’t will them.

And, as YOU said – “Denial ain’t a river in Egypt” . . .

A person’s “desire” IS a person’s “will”.

And just like almost every other language – there are different words that have similar definitions.
Don’t forget – “oida” or “gnosis” can be used for knowledge (intellectual), whereas, “epignosis” is a deeper knowledge

The normal Freek word for “belief” is πίστη (pis'-tis.). However, James 2 repeatedly uses the same root word for “faith” and “believe” – even when comparing the intellectual belief that the demons have compared to real faith.

The Greek word with a primary definition of “desire” is επιθυμία (epithymía).
τηελο (thel'-o ) is a word that CAN be used – but “desire” is its secondary definition.
τηελεμα (thel'-ay-mah) is the word John uses to describe the “will” of Jesus and the One who sent Him (John 6:38-40).

Yes, it’s getting harder for you to come up with real answers instead of the usual denials . . .

Why? The Church is “WE”. ALL of us are ONE Body.

And we didn’t “add” to the bible, as I have shown you.
Interesting that YOU can’t refute anything I said about where YOUR Protestant Fathers got THEIR OT Canon . . .

Still waiting for book, chapter and verse.
You claim you follow the Bible.
Can you prove your claims?

 

[Titus]

If I’m right – and the Bible says that I AM

Then you wont have any problem quoting from the new testament that christians are to pray to the dead.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then you wont have any problem quoting from the new testament that christians are to pray to the dead.

1 Cor. 12 says that, as the Body of Christ, we ALL need each other. EVERY part needs ALL the other parts (1 Cor. 12:20-21). And, if we’re ALL parts of the Body – James 5:16 says that we should ALL pray for each other. Therefore, asking a member of the Body in Heaven to pray for me is NO different than asking a loved one here on earth to pray for me.

And, by the way – YOU still haven’t given me the Biblical basis for the following Protestant doctrines . . .
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
A Pre-Trib “Rapture”
Accepting Christ as ”personal Lord and Savior”
Limited Atonement

 

[BreadOfLife]

Still waiting for book, chapter and verse.
You claim you follow the Bible.
Can you prove your claims?

Book, chapter and verse for what??

Can you be more specific?

 

[Titus]

1 Cor. 12 says that, as the Body of Christ, we ALL need each other. EVERY part needs ALL the other parts (1 Cor. 12:20-21). And, if we’re ALL parts of the Body – James 5:16 says that we should ALL pray for each other. Therefore, asking a member of the Body in Heaven to pray for me is NO different than asking a loved one here on earth to pray for me.

God Himself teaches us how to pray. God said nothing about how you presume we should pray.
You gave zero evidence, instead gave an opinion instead of Scriptural evidence for praying to the dead.
There is no scripture that says prayers to dead christians is approved of by God.
Catholics are always putting themselves in Gods authoritative position. Making their own authority being their own ideas based not on God telling us what to do but their own reasoning.

Psalm 19:13,
- keep back your servant from presumptuous sins, let them not rule over me, then I will be innocent and I will be blameless of great wrongdoing

Proverbs 3:5,
- trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

And, by the way – YOU still haven’t given me the Biblical basis for the following Protestant doctrines . . .
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
A Pre-Trib “Rapture”
Accepting Christ as ”personal Lord and Savior”
Limited Atonement

I see you do not listen, therefore this is falling on deaf ears.
I already told you that I dont have to prove this list of doctrines BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN THESE DOCTRINES.


You failed to prove where God instructs us in the new testament to pray to the dead, therefore you've proven nothing.
So, even if I believed in those doctrines you want me to prove(I don't) I'm not obligated since you have failed to give evidence only gave a response that is human reasoning.
Where does the new testament even claim that the dead in Christ hear the prayers of the living?

Your reasoning is pure imaginative speculation.

Sounds like a reasonable answer to someone who is ignorant of the Scriptures.
Doesn't work on me.

Any other reasons you'd like to make up?

 

[Titus]

James 5:16 says that we should ALL pray for each other.

And so you make an assumption that this includes praying to the dead.
Just your imagination Sir. It's not in the text you gave!!!!

I'll use your flawed reasoning.

By your logic I can,

Pray to Adam and Eve

Pray to Moses

Pray to King David

Pray to Mary mother of Jesus.

Pray to Paul

Pray to Peter

Pray to Noah

Pray to Rahab

Pray to John the baptizer

Extremely poor reasoning Sir.
And worst of all not based on any Scripture just mens imagination.

No surprise why the catholic church has so many false doctrines with this kind of reasoning.