FearTheLord
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Yeah. Saul and David both had that since they were anointed kings of Israel. John the Baptist seemed special among the prophets. I don't think all of the prophets received regeneration by just having the Holy Spirit.
The Doctrines of Grace
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Now it says this,
1 Peter 5:1 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
Not quite sure here but it does say this
Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
And you have Job considered the same
Job 1:10 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
How could any of them be called to be perfect without the Spirit.
FearTheLord
Member
I know this will be a controversial statement, but it's because cessation from sin was never impossible for anyone in the first place. And cessation from sin alone cannot save anyone. In Deut 30:11, God told Israel that the Law was not too hard for them.
[Deu 30:9-11 NASB95] 9 "Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers; 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
Furthermore, God even commanded Israel to regenerate themselves.
[Eze 18:31 NASB95] 31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
The New Covenant wasn't made because man is incapable of ceasing from sin. Jesus had to die so that the past sins that we did commit could be forgiven and atoned for. But the New Covenant was made so that when Jesus brings Israel back to the land according to Deuteronomy 30, Israel (as a nation) will have a righteous government to enforce the Law of Moses properly. Notice that Ezekiel 36 is talking about giving Israel, as a singular national entity, a new heart and spirit. This new heart is Jesus and the Church.
[Eze 36:22-28 NASB95] 22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
[Jer 3:15-16 NASB95] 15 "Then I will give you shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you on knowledge and understanding. 16 "It shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss [it,] nor will it be made again.
What were all of these here that Abraham obeyed?
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
FearTheLord
Member
I think the laws that Abraham obeyed were simply the instructions that God spoke to him; to leave his father's house, to walk blamelessly, to send Hagar and Ishmael away, to offer up his son, etc. Since Genesis was the first book of the Torah, I believe legal language was used to inspire the Israelites to be obedient like their father, Abraham. But I don't think God gave Abraham the ten commandments or anything like that. He just followed God's instructions.
I dont think he gave him the ten commandments while telling him to go sacrifice his son (thou shalt not kill) being one of them?
Couldn't resist
Although, Cain was still on the hook for that.
Alrighty then, I will cease from this topic and jump off this thread since I am the one who jumped on and started taking it further off course lol
Good night FearTheLord
The passage is about Abraham's receiving God's call and thus having faith, which is impossible without having the Holy Spirit, regardless of when that occurs, either before Christ's death and resurrection and Pentecost or after. as Scripture clearly attests.
It does; faith is faith, regardless of the timeframe. We see ~ well, at least some of us do, I guess ~ that the Spirit did not merely "join in the fun," as it were, at Pentecost, but was surely at work with the Father and the Son even from the beginning, in Genesis 1:2 ~ "...the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." At the very least, we know that the Holy Spirit "came upon" Mary, causing her to be with child (Luke 1:34-35), Who of course was Christ Jesus, and that event occurred over three decades before Pentecost. If we go back to Ezekiel, we can read, without question, that the Spirit was given to God's elect (Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-27), that He put His Spirit into folks and was then their God and they His people, and that was centuries ~ seven to eight, to be exact ~ before Christ Jesus was born of Mary.
In this life it is. In the sense that because of the natural condition/nature of our heart which is still with us and we cannot in this life escape, even our best actions are tainted with sin, it is impossible. We are set free from slavery to sin and made slaves to righteousness, but we have not been completely made sin-free, and in this life will not be; we are being conformed to the image of Christ, but in this life will never completely be.
He certainly did, but "possible/impossible" can be understood in two different senses, namely regarding man's state of being before and after glorification, which at any point in a person's life here on earth ~ given that he is elect of God and either before or after his being born again of the Spirit ~ is future only.
Again, God says He does that (the act of regeneration of His elect, those whom He chooses) in both Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:26-27... He does it for them, because they cannot. As Jesus says, With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible, and what is impossible with man is possible with God (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 18:27). What God says in Ezekiel 18:31 is in quite the same sense of ~ should be read in the same way... like, "Hey, do it if you can," which is to say, "you absolutely cannot," as ~ God's words to Job in Job 38:3, "Dress for action like a man;; I will question you, and you make it known to me"... as if he possibly can; he cannot, and Job, after God's three-chapter rebuke, "repent(s) in dust and ashes," admitting to himself and to God that he has "uttered what (he) did not understand, things too wonderful for (him), which (he) did not know" (Job 42:1-6) And remember, too, of course, the vision of regeneration Ezekiel is given in chapter 37 of his prophecy, at the valley of dry bones.
All... past, present, and future. As John says, because we have been born again of the Spirit and are no longer dead in our sin, "if we walk in the light..." ~ and we do, if we have been born again ~ "...as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." And this is ongoing, not just a once-and-for-all thing. We have been justified by God, and thus imputed the righteousness of Christ Jesus, but we still in this life fall short ~ far short ~ of the glory of God. But there is still grace... amazing grace.
Grace and peace to you, FearTheLord.
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BreadOfLife
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According to the Letter to the Smyrnaeans by 1st century Bishop, Ignatius of Antioch – the 1st century Chu8irch DID resemble the Catholic Church of today . . .
Ignatius of Antioch
“Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).
“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 107]).
Gee . . .
“Follow your Bishop … as Jesus follows the Father”
“Obey your clergy as you would the Apostles”
“There is the Catholic Church”
“The Eucharist … is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again”
There is only ONE 21st century Church thar practices and believes in ALL of these things.
The Catholic Church.
The Didache doesn’t contain a canon of Scripture. As I told you before - the Didache itself was once considered to be Scripture.
According to Google AI: Does the Didache contain a canon of Scripture?
“No, the Didache does not contain a canon of Scripture; while some early Church Fathers considered it part of the New Testament, it was ultimately not included in the biblical canon and is considered a separate early Christian document, not a list of canonical texts itself. “
So much for revisionist nonsense . . .
Hi @ElectedbyHim
Speaking of your OP...why doesn't it speak of "The Doctrines of Grace"? I mean, there aren't many if any posts speaking about that and that is the title of your thread.
Just curious.
FearTheLord
Member
Then show me from the scriptures. Don't just claim it to be true.
And none of that indicates that Abraham was regenerated by the Holy Spirit within his lifetime. It's just an assumption you're making without scriptural support.
Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26-27 were prophecies about the New Covenant. None of it started until Pentecost, and for Israel specifically, as described in the aforementioned passages, they're still in the future. You don't understand what you're quoting.
Now you're arguing against the apostles.
[1Pe 4:1-2 NASB95] 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
[1Co 10:13 NASB95] 13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
[Gal 5:16, 24 NASB95] 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. ... 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
[Rom 6:14 NASB95] 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
[1Co 10:13 NASB95] 13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
[Gal 5:16, 24 NASB95] 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. ... 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
[Rom 6:14 NASB95] 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
This is the problem with Reformed theology; it employs circular, anachronistic logical to willfully redefine the scriptures. It's completely dishonest. That's why it's a heresy. Everything you just said makes God out to be a swindler. God doesn't not use sarcasm in his covenants.
It's abundantly clear at this point that you do not know the gospel and are in no position to make claims about it. Jesus did not die so that we might sin less. He died so that we might become the righteous of God through faith and obedience. If we cease from obedience after being regenerated, we will lose salvation. Regeneration is not the same as election.
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BreadOfLife
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As I have AMPLY shown . . .
Once again – the Church didn’t “add” to Scripture. It included ALL of the Books that Jesus and the Apostles study from and referenced about 150 times in the NT, as I already explained to you.
And there is nothing in these Books that is heterodox. Praying for the dead is something that the Jews (Mourner’s Kaddish) practice to this day.
You’ve disregarded it because iy is impossible to refute . . .
Jesus’s teachings absolutely reflect the Deuterocanonical Books.
Some examples are:
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 – “What you hate, do not do to others”.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 – “Lord of heaven and earth”.
Matt. 7:16, 20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 – “The fruit discloses the cultivation”.
Total cop-out.
The verses I gave you are valid examples – NOT just because they “sound” like things in the OT. They are NOT in the OT, but are referenced in the NT. The Jewish Canon of Scripture was NOT yet closed during the life of Jesus and the Apostles. As I indicated before – the Deuterocanonicals were jettisoned by a non-authoritative rabbinical body, headed by a FALSE prophet (Akiva). And, it was AFTER Jesus had given full Authority to His Church and ascended to Heaven
Let’s put this in CONTEXT – with the subsequent verses (37-38) included:
Hebrews 10:36-38
You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. For,
“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”
And,
“But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”
No, it’s NOT wrong.
There were MANY individual “canons” for the first 300 years of the Church. There was NO official or agreed-upon canon until 382. – and that canon was declared by the Church, who was the only entity with the God-given Authority to do so.
In 382 – there was only ONE Church of Christ that existed – and THAT was the Church who declared the Canon. That was the Catholic Church – and NO amount of denial can change that . . .
BreadOfLife
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It’s not ME who said it.Not with Christ, no; you don't mean to, I know, but what YOU say here is very much tantamount to saying Jesus ~ God ~ is not perfectly faithful, and that God, in giving you newness of life in the Spirit, did not really put His Spirit within you, both of which are categorically false.
This is the Word of God warning that even those who are born again (Epignosis) can lose their security by their OWN doping
Salvation isn’t something that God “takes away”.
WE, however, can throw it away.
And there is the difference between YOUR view of salvation and what the Bible teaches.
We can HAVE it (Epignosis) and refuse it at some later point.
That’s the point of the following Biblical warnings:
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)
This is precisely what YOU’VE been doing during this whole exchange,
You cherry-pick verses to the detriment of the entire Word . . .
Right. And some won’t . . .
Right. And Rom. 11:22 and Heb. 10:26-27 both warn that those with Epignosis can fall away and LOSE their salvation.
That’s NOT what Epignosis means.
This word is only used some 15 times in ALL of Scripture for a reason. Because it’s NOT talking about knowledge of God – or even membership in His Church. It’s describing a full, experiential and intimate knowledge – like a husband and wife.
Again, I’m not going to change your mind on this.
You need to study the Scriptures and pray on it.
But you can’t seize or carry yourself off by force. Just like, you can’t rob yourself
har-pad'-zo is very specific. You can turn away (gyriste makria) . . .
Works aren’t a result of faith
They are, along with belief and trust in Jesus – what defines faith.
1 Cor. 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
Gal5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
This verse is A definition of faith, but not the ONLY definition. This definition leans more on the trust aspect (assurance, conviction). It says nothing about love and surrender. Paul fills in those gaps with 1 Cor. 13:1-13 and Gal. 5:6.
Let’s not fall into the “Limited Atonement” trap.
Jesus died for ALL – but NOT all will reap the benefits because of their refusal.
Ahhh, predestination. That’s a topic for another thread . . .
My sentiments, exactly . . .
LOL! I have, but just to repeat, Joel 2:32, Romans 9:11-18, Ephesians 1:1-13, Ephesians 2:4-10, 1 Peter 1:3-5... I've quoted all these before, several times over...
So you think; fair enough. I say it does; we disagree. Hebrews 11 speaks of Abraham three times in terms of his faith, which is the assurance of God and conviction by the Spirit Who convicts. Saving faith can only be given by God's will through the working of the Holy Spirit; there is no other way.
<chuckle>
Not true at all; quite the opposite...
It is a picture of what happens during salvation; it is how we are each born again and raised in Christ through faith by grace, and it has been the case since Adam and Eve.
It began for the Gentiles, the Gentile elect, anyway, as a whole at Pentecost. I say as a whole, because previous to Jesus's coming, there were some Gentiles (foreigners, aliens, not of ethnic Israel) saved in this way, a foreshadowing of the spread of the Gospel to all nations upon Jesus's coming and Pentecost. And in Romans 9 when Paul says, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named'... it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring," he is not just talking about from Pentecost forward; he makes no such qualification.
Who do you say Isreal is, FearTheLord? If you answer, remember what Paul says in Romans 2:28-29 and Romans 9-11... It seems, at least, from your posts here that you see who Israel really is, but I'm not sure. Who do you say Isreal is, FearTheLord?
Absolutely not. Do you not think there were Israelite believers in Christ even going all the way back to Adam, FearTheLord?
Ah, so you think, maybe, but I do... <smile>
Not at all.
[1Pe 4:1-2 NASB95]
This passage is at least somewhat debated; three different interpretations have been suggested: (1) Some suggest that this could refer to the suffering of Christ ("the one Who has suffered") ~ Who, though He was not Himself a sinner, took sin upon Himself and then triumphed over it forever through His suffering and death. This interpretation seems unlikely, however, because "whoever" seems too broad and imprecise to be a clear reference to Christ. (2) Others have suggested that this is a reference to the believer being dead to the power of sin, as a result of having died with Christ (similar to Paul's concept in Romans 6:1-11). (3) Still others ~ and I would put myself in this camp ~ say Peter's point is that when believers are willing to suffer, the nerve center of (or, our natural inclination to) sin is severed in their lives, or at least is, at the point of being saved becoming, from that point on less and less in proportion to their acquired desire to be sinless and to glorify God; the Spirit within us makes this more and more the case through the rest of the course of our lives. It is true that believers will never be totally free from sin in this life ~ James 3:2 ("For we all stumble in many ways"), 1 John 1:8 ("If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"), when believers endure suffering for the sake of Christ they show that their purpose in life is not to live for their own pleasures bu according to "the will of God," as Peter says here, and for His glory.
And Paul, in Romans 7 and 1 Timothy 1:15, speaks of his own sin:
"we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
[1Co 10:13 NASB95]
[Gal 5:16, 24 NASB95]
[Rom 6:14 NASB95]
These passages are very much in the same vein as above; I even cited Romans 6:1-11 above.
Pish. I'm not even sure how one could make such an accusation and assertion with a straight face or with any degree of seriousness. Many times in Scripture, both in the Old Testament and New, an absurd understanding is met with a question or statement exposing it as wrongful and absurd. Sometimes people respond in humility, and sometimes, unfortunately, they do not. Jesus's rhetorical question in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 comes immediately to mind ~ "Why do you call me good?" And Paul's rhetorical questions in Romans 9 come to mind, namely, "Is there injustice on God’s part?" and "Why does He still find fault?" and "For who can resist his will?” and "who are you, O man, to answer back to God?" and "Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?'” and "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"
One who uses deception to deprive someone of money or possessions? Goodness gracious. Perish the thought.
No He does not. But some of the writers of the Bible do... You might remember in 1 Kings 18:27 when Elijah mocks those he is speaking to, saying ~ because Baal, their supposed god, is silent ~ “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.” He's on the toilet... LOL! And hey, this is the Word of God... <smile>
Didn't say that... Not even sure why you would be compelled to say that...
Sure. Absolutely. Thanks for telling me that, but I'm well aware... and thankful beyond words. To God, of course.
Right, but we will not cease from obedience. We will not want to. Now... we will fail, we will not be in this life perfectly obedient, but because of the Holy Spirit's work in us, we will not cease in our striving to do so and to glorify God. Didn't you say you were fully on board with the idea of "perseverance of the saints"? That we have been by God "caused to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"? I mean, that's 1 Peter 1:3-5 (again) verbatim...
Right; I didn't say or insinuate that it was. But our election (from before the foundation of the world), our being elect of God ensures our regeneration (at some point in our lives). And that ensures our ultimate salvation, or eventual resurrection to eternal life and exemption/exclusion from the second death.
Grace and peace to you.
You've shown... well, stuff... for sure. LOL!
The Catholic Church did.
Genesis through Malachi, yes. Jesus is the Word become flesh (John 1:14). But not the Apocrypha.
Well, yes, but mistakenly (to put it nicely... <smile>)...
Not true. There are good things in them, but what you say here is not true.
Do you know why? Not because it's Scriptural... <smile> There's nothing in God's Word commending praying to the dead; we pray to God, and noone else, as God is the God of the living, not the dead. The Bible has multiple verses that prohibit praying to the dead, including Deuteronomy 18:11, 1 Samuel 28:1-25, and 1 Chronicles 10:13-14. So if there is anything in the Deuterocanonical books that commends praying to the dead ~ and there is ~ it is in direct conflict with the Bible. And... where there is smoke, there is fire, as they say...
No, because it is ridiculous. It's absurdity renders it unworthy of discussion.
As I said, not everything in the Deuterocanonical books is bad. Some good things are contained therein. But there is quite enough there to prove they are not the inspired Word of God.
It says no such thing. If it were to do so, it would be an absolute contradiction of the passages I have cited. But there is a proper reconciliation of these things, and I have related it several times.
LOL! Are you/we more powerful than God, BreadOfLife? Well of course not, but that's what you're saying... even without meaning to, of course. We are kept in the power of God... well, again, in the words of Peter, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Okay, this time I won't say you can't, althoug... <smile>... Yeah, give me some alternative understanding of that passage that would suggest that we can lose our salvation, that we can... "throw it away."
Right back atcha, BreadOfLife. Right back atcha.
Okay, and God will not divorce us. <smile> Nor will we divorce Him. <smile>
No, you're surely not. <smile> I would use Martin Luther's words here and say that my conscience is captive to the Word of God... Here I stand; I can do no other.
Sure I do. We all do. the Word of God is formative. Sure, absolutely.
<eye roll> How long, O Lord? How long?
They are the natural outward evidence ~ to ourselves and to others ~ of the salvific faith that God has given us and maintains in us.
LOL! And there is no B, or C, or D, or any other. <smile> It's the one definition that the Word of God gives. Goodness Gracious. Do any of the Deuterocanonical books give a different one? If so, I would not be a bit surprised...
Right, because that's exactly what it is. The Greek word there conveys ideas of true fidelity, irrevocable promise, an unbreakable seal of faithfulness, and a title deed given by the Lord.
We love because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).
As a result of having been born again of the Spirit, so we must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:11). This is surrender.
LOL!
In a sense, yes, as I said, but in another sense only the elect of God, and the latter is the sense in which Calvin's 'L' is firmly (and correctly) couched.
Yeah, I don't... think it's ever been discussed on this board... LOL!
Yeah, how long, O Lord? How long? <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
BreadOfLife
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No – Protestants just chose to follow the “authority” of a false prophet who proclaimed a false “Christ“ when he deleted 7 Books.
Had it not been for the council of their contemporaries - men like Philip Melanchton – Luther and Calvin wanted to remove Books from the NT as well.
Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Book of Revelation were on the chopping block until cooler heads prevailed.
No – they studies from the Septuagint as we see from the references to it in the NT.
That seems to be your response every time you’re stumped . . .
No – there is nothing in them that is heterodox.
The prayers in are FOR the dead – not “TO” the dead. Judah’s prayers on 2 Macc. 12:42-46, were FOR his armies, who died in battle.
With regard to praying TO the dead - the verses you presented are irrelevant because they are about necromancy. They deal with seeking oracles from the dead, which is what id prohibited. Asking fellow members of the Body of Christ to pray FOR us is not prohibited. Those in Heaven are STILL part of the Body of Christ (Heb. 12:1). And they intercede on our behalf (Rev. 5:8).
Then explain to me how a person with Epignosis is not a born-again believer.
Then PROVE it from the verses I provided . . .
Matt.. 7:12
Matt. 11:25
Matt. 7:16, 20
Not it wouldn’t because you cherry-pick verses about promises - and ignore the ones that contain the conditions for them.
Throwing away a gift from God does not make me “more powerful” than Him. Tell that to all of those people who have committed suicide . . .
Sooooo – apostasy is not real??
Not much more I can add as you see everything through Calvinist Goggles instead of Biblical reality . . .
As I told you before – you can find further definitions in the NT (1 Cor. 13:1-23, Gal. 5:6).
They’re not at odds with the definition in Heb. 11:1, Rather, they complement each other.
Faith without love is not faith at all (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6).
And, if this is what you consider to be surrender – it’s not in the definition of faith thatPaqul gibes us in
I’m fine with that. But, as I said before – it’s NOT part of the definition in Heb. 11:1 . . .
Yes. <smile>
<eye roll>
<smile>
Yes. <smile>
You pray to Mary and to "Saints," e.g., John Paul II. Good folks, for sure, but they're dead.
Of course not.
- They are dead. If they are elect, then their spirits are with Christ Jesus, but only Christ Jesus intercedes to the Father on our behalf. Only God ~ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ~ can answer prayer.
- Intercession... the Spirit intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words for the saints according to the will of God (Romans 8:26-27), and Christ Jesus intercedes for us at the right hand of God (Romans 8:34), even ever living to do so (Hebrews 7:25). Now, we can certainly ~ and should, of course ~ intercede for each other, in this life; we are exhorted many times in Scripture to do this for all people, even our enemies and those who persecute us, e.g., 1 Timothy 2:1, Matthew 5:44.
- Revelation 5:8 says "prayers of the saints." Goodness gracious. Because I am born again, I am a saint. That doesn't mean I'm "extra-specially good," or anything like that ~ it's synonymouse with "elect of God" and/or being in Christ. Goodness gracious.
Ah, well, I'll answer with a question to you (from which I think you will be able to discern my answer to your question, here): Do you believe on can have full, complete, even perfect intellectual and experiential knowledge every single little jot and tittle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ but still not believe it from the heart?
To every one of your citations, what I said directly above... well, what I think I made perfectly clear in the question I asked you directly above... rings absolutely true.
Again, right back atcha. To be fair, it's quite impossible for either one of us to cite in any one of our posts every single relevant reference, so it's only practical to cite just a few, and really only necessary to do so.
No, for sure there are plenty of "if you will do this, I will..." verses. But there is another element to that.
It means, in reference to salvation, that you are able to thwart His purpose, which is to make yourself out to be more powerful than God.
<SIGH> How long, O Lord? How long?
That's just it; the Catholic Church should have added nothing. <smile>
Love for God is a result of His first loving us, as John says (1 John 4:19), as I have pointed out several times now. And actually, what you're saying here is really what James is saying in James 2, that faith without works is not God-given, salvific faith at all, but a dead faith:
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (vv.14-17).
Grace and peace to you.
BreadOfLife
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Funny – we were talking about the Mourner’s Kaddish – Jewish prayer FOR the dead. I addressed intercessory prayer separately . . .
First of all – NOBODY in the Body of Christ id “dead”.
Mark 12:27 - "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living"
The Transfiguration should tell you that this is true. Along with Heb. 12:1 and other verses remind us of just how alive they are.
Secondly – we don’t pray to the saints in Heaven to grant our prayer. We ask them – just as we ask each other – to pray FOR us, as is shown in Rev. 5:8.
And, speaking of that verse – we acknowledge that WE are the “saints” being referenced:
Rev. 5:8
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (God’s people).
That is a nonsensical question. Gosis/oida are not “experiential”.
Besides - I don’t know of a single person who has a “FULL, complete, even perfect intellectual
Now – since you dodged the question – please answer my original question:
Explain to me how a person with Epignosis is NOT a born-again believer.
That’s why I provide CONTEXT from other verses . . .
“If you endure in faith” is the context to ALL of these verses.
When Jesus taught us to pray, He said: “… Your will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven.”
This amounts to, “MAY your will be done…” – NOT, “Your will IS done.
1 Tim. 2:3-4 says that He WILLS for ALL to be saves and come to a knowledge of truth. Will ALL be saved??
His will is perfectly carried out in Heaven – but NOT on earth
Another dodge . . .
We didn’t.
Your Protestant Father deleted 7 Books and parts of Esther and Daniel.
And speaking of James . . .
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.
Another verse that shows the elements of faith.
You were. Irrelevant ~ we were addressing Catholicism and prayer to the dead.
Okay. Relevance? None...
Well not those who are still alive, who haven't physically died yet, I agree. <smile> Everyone who has died is deceased... physically dead. Now, if you want to change what we're talking about and talk about the spiritual world... But that's not what we've been talking about.
Right, so you pray to them.
Good. You don't think you're saints like John Paul II is... excuse me, was. You know, before he died, and, regardless what it was or is for, you started praying to him.
If you think so, you don't know the Bible nearly as well as you think you do.
Good catch, and good for you; I agree. Yeah, I thought about that 'perfect' after shortly after posting, but didn't think it necessary to remove it, really. But yes, I agree with you on that.
LOL! So you're avoiding my (very relevant) question, which was clearly my answer to your question; there was no dodge. So here; I'll ask it again, minus the word 'perfect,' of course, and anything that might cause any confusion or concern:
You said, "explain to me how a person with Epignosis is not a born-again believer."
And I said (cutting out anything questionable), "Ah, well, I'll answer with a question to you (from which I think you will be able to discern my answer to your question, here): Do you believe one can have full, complete intellectual and experiential knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ but still not believe it from the heart?
Answer the question, BreadOfLife. Not a big ask. You might read Romans 10:9, where Paul makes it obvious that believing something from the heart is far, far more than just intellectual assent. Answer the question, and if you answer it like any other person with an IQ above, say, three, you will have my answer to your question. Obviously ~ both here and in my previous post ~ if you answer my question correctly, my answer to your question will obviously be the opposite of your answer to mine.
LOL! Okay... <smile> I mean, sometimes I agree, but sometimes that's the problem... <smile>
But that can't be taken in isolation from the numerous references that I've related regarding the God's giving us this salvific faith we have and the Spirit's maintaining this faith within us to the day of Christ. If we have the Spirit, we will endure in the faith.
And now you're saying again, in effect, that we are more powerful than God, that our will can, oh, "outdo," or overrule, God's will. Such is surely not the case. Jesus knew very well ~ especially as the second Person of the triune God ~ that nothing is done outside God's will, and that our prayers are only effectual when they are in concert with God's will. This is not to say that we are "helpless" or that our prayers are ineffectual or any kind of exercise in futility; God has ordained that the prayers of His people be used in accomplishing His will, and this is our participation in His accomplishing His will, and it is a great privilege for us to do so.
Desires, BreadOfLife. Even God overrules His own desires sometimes, and this is for His own glory. Come on, now, you're smarter than this, I know. <smile> No purpose of God's can be thwarted. If He wills something, it will come to fruition, and in His timing, especially with regard to who is saved and when. Again, here, I could cite several passages, but just look at Acts 13, specifically verses 44-48:
"The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, 'It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth."' And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Who do you think does that appointing, BreadOfLife? And when? <smile>
Nope. I think you agree...
Ah, well, the answer to that regarding on earth, is really 'no' in one sense, but 'yes' in another. Surely it is not His will that we sin, or that there is sin and suffering in the world. But even that sin and suffering serves His purposes. This is what John's Revelation is all about, and why, well, as John says in Revelation 1:3, "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it." ,
I dodge nothing.
They did.
Nope. That's what your Catholic Fathers have taught you, but no.
Not "elements of" faith, but outward evidence of the saving faith given to us.
Grace and peace to you.
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