The Doctrines of Grace

[KUWN]

WRONG.

There was NO Canon of Scripture (Bible) until it was compiled and declared by the 300 year-old Church.

I see that you are not a student of "Church" History. First you say WRONG, then you say "Prior to this – there were MANY individual canons (lists) – but NONE that was agreed upon by the whole Church." Many of the individual books of the NT were largely agreed upon in the Didache (AD 80 - 120). There was no such thing as the WHOLE CHURCH in ad 80, if by Church you mean the RC Church. The RC Church came into being after AD 300-400. The early Church usually means first century to second century, some go all the way to ad 500.

 

[BreadOfLife]

...from above:

You did, and they were... bad. <smile> Really speaking of something else entirely, the context was very different. So again... you can't, not with any validity anyway. <smile> And I explained why, using Scripture to do so...

WRONG.

As I warned you before – you cannot get past Epignosis (Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27).
These verses say that you can gave a full, experiential and relational knowledge with Christ – much like a spouse – and LOSE it.

Well, that's good that you say that, but you did... And, how can you say God is infinitely faithful but also say those in Christ do not have eternal security? If that's not a contradiction, there's no such thing... <smile>

He IS faithful. He DOES keep His promises – IF we cooperate. He will NOT go back on His promises.

BUT - He cannot give us a gift if we refuse it.

LOL! Though we know we are not sinless ~ yet, anyway, because one great day we will (not might) be ~ if we have been born again of the Spirit and are in Christ, "(i)f we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1-9). And we will, because the Spirit will prompt us to do so, both initially when we are born again and on an ongoing basis, which is what Paul says to the Roman Christians in Romans 2, that God, in His kindness, leads us to repentance, and to the Corinthian Christians, saying the Holy Spirit causes a Godly grief in us that produces a repentance that leads to salvation.

Absolutely.

IF we remain in Him.

Yes, but we will not. Our greatest desire will be to "run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:1-2). And this will be because God's giving us faith, which is "the assurance" (of and by God) "of things hoped for, the conviction" (from the Holy Spirit, Who convicts) "of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

That’s not what Scripture says - in CONTEXT . . .

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

2 Pet. 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.

Matt. 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end WILL BE saved

1 Cor. 9:27
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 Tim. 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Heb. 3:12-14
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

Sin is anything ~ anything ~ that falls short of God's glory. One sin, is "walking away from Him," yes, but Jonah tried that... well, running and hiding, actually, and... <smile> This is really the story of the Bible... God's people, starting with Adam, constantly "walking away," and Him bringing them back to Himself.

And NOT all came back.

Right! That's the point; but they did appear to be of/in the faith. But yes, they did not have God-given faith, and they "went out." Yes; thank you for making my point... or, reiterating it, anyway... <smile> Actually not my point, really, but John's... <smile>

Just as I have said; they appeared to have faith, because they were with the people of faith, but they went out, proving that they never had faith. You seem to be agreeing with me now. Goodness gracious.

But, those with Epignosis have God-given faith – and yet the Scriptures warn that they CAN fall away . . .
(Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27)

No one means no one, BreadOfLife. And Paul, in Romans 8 says "(nothing) in all of creation." "...neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." You and I, BreadOfLife, are both in creation, right? <smile>

And again – you cannot “snatch” or “puck” yourself out of His Hand.

The Greek word used here in John 10:28 is har-pad'-zo, which means “to seize or carry off by force”. You can’t do either of these to yourself, so this doesn’t pertain to oneself.

As I said, if by "essential element of faith" you mean that works are the outward evidence of true God-given faith, then we are in agreement on that. We receive this faith, it is worked in us by the Spirit, and in this way are God's workmanship, and we then live out this newness of life with the Spirit at work in us in the form of good works, then we agree.

They are an essential element of faith – NOT simply an after-effect of faith.
Faith is belief, trust, surrender and works existing together (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6).

Wow. See your own post #373... the very last thing in that post. As I said, I literally copied and pasted Paul's exact words in Ephesians 2:1-3 and Romans 9:15-18, the latter of which Paul is quoting directly from Moses, who's quoting God Himself in Exodus 33:19. And you said it "had been perverted." To which I say, "Get behind me Satan."

Ahhh – I see what happened. I was referring to the to the wrong part of your post.
My bad . . .

You had said, "We are absolutely free from the consequences of sin. We’re NOT free from the temporal effects of sin." Consequences of sin and temporal effects of sin are the same things, BreadOfLife, in that even in this life, God can exact consequences on us for sin in the form of discipline, which He does for those He loves. In that way, to say we are free from the consequences of sin and at the same time not free from the temporal effects of sin are contradictory ideas. Now, if you are talking about the eternal effects of sin for the unrepentant for sin in the temporal, then of course I agree. I hope we just missed each other a bit on this...

I was referring to the eternal consequences of sin as opposed to the temporal.

No, yet again, you only think so because you either can't or won't ~ maybe both ~ distinguish between the senses of taking away the sins of the world and dying to redeem from sin only God's elect.

Grace and peace to you, BOL.

Jesus died for ALL of the sins of man (John 3:16).
But NOT all will be forgiven because not ALL will repent.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Go back and check the thread yourself . . .

Who is the church?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I see that you are not a student of "Church" History. First you say WRONG, then you say "Prior to this – there were MANY individual canons (lists) – but NONE that was agreed upon by the whole Church." Many of the individual books of the NT were largely agreed upon in the Didache (AD 80 - 120). There was no such thing as the WHOLE CHURCH in ad 80, if by Church you mean the RC Church. The RC Church came into being after AD 300-400. The early Church usually means first century to second century, some go all the way to ad 500.

There was ONE Church – the WHOLE Church (Acts 9:311). That’s where we get the word “Catholic”.
There was ONE Church in MANY locations (Ephesus, Rome, Corinth, etc).

Furthermore -= -the Didache, which was once considered to be Scripture itself, does NOT contain a list of the Books of Scripture.

Finally, your nonsense about the Catholic Church coming into existence after the 4th or 5th century is nothing more than a fairy tale.
The “Catholic Church” was being written about by the end of the 1st century in Ignatius of Antioch’s Letter to the Smyrnaeans.
In his work, Against Heresies - Irenaeus provided the first list of Popes from his own time in the 2nd century – all the way back to Peter.
Tertullian wrote about the Pope in the 3rd century in his treatise, Di Pudicitia.

So much for your revisionism . . .

 

[PinSeeker]

As I have repeatedly show you – that’s NOT what the Bible says in context.

You think so, sure.

The Canon of Scripture wasn’t decided until the Synod of Rome in 382.

There was hardly any, if any significant, disagreement regarding the Old Testament canon ~ there was some debate, yes, " and by 250 A.D. there was nearly universal agreement on said canon of Hebrew Scripture, and the Apocrypha was not included. You're right, the Roman Catholic Church decided to include it, which... backs up what I've been saying. <smile> They added to Scripture, in much the same way as Adam Smith and the Mormans in about 1830. But again, regarding the Apocrypha, it's not nearly all bad, there's just enough... things... in it to prove that it's not part of the inspired Word of God, like praying to the dead, for example.

Down to using stale Al Franken quotes?

For the purpose of a little humor in ridiculing your denials, yes. That one serves... pretty well. <smile>

All you do is deny my ample evidence...

The validity of it, yes.

...you never seem to be able to challenge or refute it.

I correct what needs correcting. If you don't think so, I... don't really care. <smile> Granted, though, I have disregarded out of hand some of your "evidence." <smile>

...were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

They were Jews, yes, but in all their words and writings recorded in Scripture, not a single reference to any of the seven deuterocanonical books was made. Especially Jesus, who cited Old Testament texts dozens of times in his teachings; He never once quoted any apocryphal text.

...there are almost 150 references to those Books in the NT.
For example:

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

Those are not references to 2 Maccabees or Wisdom, BreadOfLife. Just because some things are found in the Apocrypha that are similar to passages in the Bible ~ and may even in fact refer to the same events ~ does not then mean that the Apocrypha is being referenced by those writers. That would be on the order of saying God approves of things like chattel slavery and multiple wives just because those things are mentioned in God's Word.

Specifically, though, to what you say here, the writer of Hebrews ~ some think Paul was the writer, but that cannot be verified, as it is much different in style than Paul's other epistles/letters, among other differences ~ in Hebrews 11:35 is referring directly to passages in 1st and 2nd Kings (17;17-24 and 4:18-37, respectively), and Paul in Ephesians 6 is referencing Isaiah's prophecy, specifically, Isaiah 11:4-5 ~ "...he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked. Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins..." ~ and 59:17 ~ "...he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on his head; he put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped himself in zeal as a cloak."

I DID give you several verses that show our cooperation as a contingency to God’s grace.

Well you gave them, sure, but I showed that they clearly do not show that. We disagree. I say again emphatically that all those passages... well:

• Hebrews 3:19 says verbatim, "they..." (meaning those who fell away) "...were unable to enter because of unbelief. Remember what Jesus said to a group of Jews in John 10, that "you do not believe because you are not among my sheep... they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand... My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand...
• In 2 Timothy and Hebrews 10 are very similar, in speaking of God's perfect faithfulness and giving us endurance. In Hebrews 10:39, the writer goes on to say, "we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls." God does this through our faith, which He gives to us and works in us, and preserves us to the end.

There was NO Canon of Scripture (Bible) until it was compiled and declared by the 300 year-old Church.

That's just wrong. See above.

It was the Church, led by the Holy Spirit who decided which Books belonged in the Canon – and which Books did NOT.

Well, I agree, but this again brings back up the question of who you and I acknowledge as the Church of Jesus Christ. And... it's not the denomination we know as the Church of Christ just because they call themselves that... which is very, very similar to... the Catholic Church. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Bread of Life.

 

[KUWN]

There was ONE Church – the WHOLE Church (Acts 9:311). That’s where we get the word “Catholic”.
There was ONE Church in MANY locations (Ephesus, Rome, Corinth, etc).

Furthermore -= -the Didache, which was once considered to be Scripture itself, does NOT contain a list of the Books of Scripture.

Finally, your nonsense about the Catholic Church coming into existence after the 4th or 5th century is nothing more than a fairy tale.
The “Catholic Church” was being written about by the end of the 1st century in Ignatius of Antioch’s Letter to the Smyrnaeans.

You are committing the fallacy of Equivocation. The one church you refer to does not in any way resemble today's RC church. The first century knew nothing of the RC doctrines.

You say the Didache...does NOT contain a list of the Books of Scripture. That is simple enough to confirm or deny by looking at the Didache today. Just google it, and tell us what you see. We are all waiting!

 

[PinSeeker]

As I warned you before...

you can gave a full, experiential and relational knowledge with Christ... and LOSE it.

Not with Christ, no; you don't mean to, I know, but what you say here is very much tantamount to saying Jesus ~ God ~ is not perfectly faithful, and that God, in giving you newness of life in the Spirit, did not really put His Spirit within you, both of which are categorically false.

He IS faithful.

Yet you just said above He is not...

He will NOT go back on His promises.

"Unless we don't cooperate." No. Well, unless we understand that in the correct sense, that yes, unless we don't "cooperate," but we will "cooperate" because of the work of God's Spirit in us. But again, the word 'cooperate' is a complete misnomer, really, because it implies that we at least to some extent have ourselves to praise and worship because we were/are co-redeemers with Jesus/God, which, again, is categorically untrue.

He cannot give us a gift if we refuse it.

LOL! We cannot refuse anything if we are dead. As Paul and Peter both say, we were dead in our sin, but God... You cannot bring yourself to realize the depth to which humanity ~ in Adam ~ fell. He and Eve surely did die that very day, just as God told Adam he would in Genesis 2:17, and this condition ~ death in sin ~ was passed to all of humanity.

That’s not what Scripture says - in CONTEXT . . .

It is. You can't just pick out this or that verse to the exclusion of others. You don't mean to, I know, but you are. In every single one of your citations.

NOT all came back.

But some will, if they have the Spirit.

But, those with Epignosis have God-given faith...

Well, they have 'epignosis' of God ~ they know/love God ~ because God has known/loved them, which is what John says, in 1 John 4:19, that "We love because he first loved us." And that's similar to the point of being synonymous with, we worship and serve Him... we know Him because He knew us (in the same sort of sense of Adam knowing Eve and causing her to conceive a son; Genesis 4:1), called us out of darkness into His marvelous light."

– and yet the Scriptures warn that they CAN fall away . . .

They do, if they were never given to Jesus by the Father, sure, if they were never of the people of God, even though they shared for a time in the benefits of such. John is very clear, and neither Paul nor the writer of Hebrews refute that, as I have said.

And again – you cannot “snatch” or “puck” yourself out of His Hand.

Right, if you are really in Christ, you can't fall away, not woodenly because you can't, but because you won't. You will not, because you have been born again to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The Greek word used here in John 10:28 is har-pad'-zo, which means “to seize or carry off by force”. You can’t do either of these to yourself, so this doesn’t pertain to oneself.

You can't forcefully do something, or do or say ~ or deny or repudiate ~ something very emphatically? I say you can... I mean, you're doing that right now, over and over and over again.

They are an essential element of faith – NOT simply an after-effect of faith.

A result ~ the inevitable result ~ of having been given salvific faith by God, and an essential element of our ultimate salvation. If we have this faith, will will bear the fruit of the Spirit in the form of good works. This is what God has created us "born-again-ers" and receivers of salvific faith for; we are His workmanship. created by God for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Faith is belief, trust, surrender and works existing together (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6).

No, the Bible defines faith for itself (God, through the writer of Hebrews defines faith) in Hebrews 11:1... the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. The inward and outward evidence of this faith is our belief and trust in and our surrender to God and His will and our obedience and good works, which are acts of love toward God, and we love because He first loved us,

Jesus died for ALL of the sins of man (John 3:16).

Again, in the sense of sufficiency to cover all, yes. But in the sense of who He really died to save, only God's elect. God's sacrifice is 100% effective, and did not somehow fail in any sense for anyone.

But NOT all will be forgiven because not ALL will repent.

Right, because, not all are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. As our man Paul said, "those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." God has always and will always bat a thousand (1.000, in baseball terms). <smile>

Round and round we go... again and again and again... <smile> Hoo boy. How long, O Lord? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[FearTheLord]

All of that is your own private view, and it exposes your ignorance of the truth. The main problem with your private interpretation of the scriptures you quoted is, you apply what the scriptures say about the elect to the reprobate.

I provided the scriptures. They speak for themselves, and any honest believer can see that you're the one imposing your opinions upon God's word.

Those in Gal 5:4 are not Gods elect, they were never in Christ to begin with. They fell away because they were never part of Gods people. They were types of Judas Iscariot's, just as everyone who doesn't believe in election and predestination is.

I agree that Gal 5:4 was not addressed to the elect, but they were still born-again Christians. They received the Holy Spirit by faith as explained in Gal 3, which I cited, and you ignored.

Please give us the chapter and verse, which confirms that Abraham was not regenerated when he believed ????? see you can't because you're pushing heresy and liars have no foundation to support their lies on.

Show me where it says Abraham received the Holy Spirit upon faith.

Again, obedience is always made impossible for the "TOTALLY DEPRAVED", why do you ignore the fact that God personally killed around 50,000 Israelites in the desert for their disobedience. Obedience was impossible for them because they were totally depraved so God killed them. So you argument is born out of ignorance.
Also why did God kill around 2 billion men, women, children and unborn babies with a world wide flood ???????? see you silly lie that God never made obedience too hard is a lie from the pits of hell.

Moses, Joshua, and Caleb weren't totally depraved. Joshua and Caleb obeyed God. They weren't destroyed with the 50k.

I've provided plenty of scriptures thought my posts. All I see in your comments are an abundance of your own opinions and a deficit of scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

All of that is your own private view, and it exposes your ignorance of the truth. The main problem with your private interpretation of the scriptures you quoted is, you apply what the scriptures say about the elect to the reprobate.

Those in Gal 5:4 are not Gods elect, they were never in Christ to begin with. They fell away because they were never part of Gods people. They were types of Judas Iscariot's, just as everyone who doesn't believe in election and predestination is.

Please give us the chapter and verse, which confirms that Abraham was not regenerated when he believed ????? see you can't because you're pushing heresy and liars have no foundation to support their lies on.

Again, obedience is always made impossible for the "TOTALLY DEPRAVED", why do you ignore the fact that God personally killed around 50,000 Israelites in the desert for their disobedience. Obedience was impossible for them because they were totally depraved so God killed them. So you argument is born out of ignorance.
Also why did God kill around 2 billion men, women, children and unborn babies with a world wide flood ???????? see you silly lie that God never made obedience too hard is a lie from the pits of hell.

In Galatians 5:4, FTL, Paul is not discussing the question of whether a genuine believer can lose his or her salvation. He is only saying that people who may once have made a profession of faith, if they are now truly seeking to be justified by the law, must not really have a relationship with Christ and have fallen away from the grace that was offered to them and available to them. “You are severed from Christ” is not equivalent to saying “You having once been born again of the Spirit and in Christ have been severed from Christ” either by the Father or by Christ, and in Paul’s context here, that is surely not the case. This same Paul says to the Romans and to all who are in Christ that “nothing” — nothing, and that includes oneself — “can separate us (those in Christ) from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Yes, people can and do fall away from the faith, that’s absolutely true, but it is also true that faith is the gift of God (1 Corinthians 12:9; Ephesians 2:8) and as such, as all His gifts are, is irrevocable (Romans 11:29) Both are true, so, how do you reconcile the two? How can you hold both without compromising or contradicting either one? There is only one possible answer, and you’re obviously smart enough to arrive at it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Show me where it says Abraham received the Holy Spirit…

Now, keep in mind from above that faith is the gift of God, worked in us when we are born again of/by the Spirit… <smile>

Hebrews 11:8-10, 17-18 — “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the City that has foundations, whose Designer and Builder is God… By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”

Moses, Joshua, and Caleb weren't totally depraved… obeyed

…anymore, when we read of them. Moses is mentioned in Hebrews 11, too, and I would submit that Caleb, who was with Moses, is in the same boat, as is Joshua, because what happened at Jericho is mentioned there also.
Right, they obeyed, because God “caused them to obey” by giving them a new spirit, by putting His Spirit into them (Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26-27).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[FearTheLord]

Now, keep in mind from above that faith is the gift of God, worked in us when we are born again of/by the Spirit… <smile>

Hebrews 11:8-10, 17-18 — “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the City that has foundations, whose Designer and Builder is God… By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”


…anymore, when we read of them. Moses is mentioned in Hebrews 11, too, and I would submit that Caleb, who was with Moses, is in the same boat, as is Joshua, because what happened at Jericho is mentioned there also.
Right, they obeyed, because God “caused them to obey” by giving them a new spirit, by putting His Spirit into them (Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26-27).

Grace and peace to you.

There is no mention of Abraham having the Holy Spirit. You're reading the post-Pentecost effects of faith into Genesis, when the Bible does not support it.

 

[Verily]

The prophets had His Spirit in them didnt they? For example, Moses said

Numbers 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

Abraham was a prophet

Gen 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

Same thing as with God's anointed, it says,

Psalm 105:14 He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes

 

[Verily]

Faith cometh by hearing too right?

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[FearTheLord]

The prophets had His Spirit in them didnt they? For example, Moses said

Numbers 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

Abraham was a prophet

Gen 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

Same thing as with God's anointed, it says,

Psalm 105:14 He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes

Isaac and Jacob weren't prophets. Neither was Caleb. Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be seen reclining in heaven.

 

[Verily]

Isaac and Jacob weren't prophets. Neither was Caleb. Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be seen reclining in heaven.

I know it, but the LORD does call Abraham a prophet though. He also said he spake by the prophets using similitudes in Hosea and as we see in Abraham's things there are two women that are used allegorically to show the two covenants. And you see the gospel preached to him, you see Abraham put the wood of burnt offering on the son of the promise (Isaac). But even Job is shown as a prophet too

James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

They seem very different from the prophets like David or Isaiah or Jeremiah and Daniel etc though

 

[Verily]

Would Abel be considered one?

Luke 11:50-51 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Never really thought about it before

 

[Verily]

What about this way?

Abram is called a prophet here

Gen 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live

The LORD said this about a prophet

Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

Then here with Abram we see

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

And Hosea says this

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

 

[FearTheLord]

I know it, but the LORD does call Abraham a prophet though. He also said he spake by the prophets using similitudes in Hosea and as we see in Abraham's things there are two women that are used allegorically to show the two covenants. And you see the gospel preached to him, you see Abraham put the wood of burnt offering on the son of the promise (Isaac). But even Job is shown as a prophet too

James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

They seem very different from the prophets like David or Isaiah or Jeremiah and Daniel etc though

Yeah. Abraham was called a prophet, and the Holy Spirit did come upon the prophets, but that's not the same as the regeneration that people receive after Pentecost. Balaam was a prophet, and the Holy Spirit came upon him, but he didn't have the Holy Spirit in the same way that Christians do.

 

[FearTheLord]

Would Abel be considered one?

Luke 11:50-51 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Never really thought about it before

That's a good question.

 

[Verily]

Yeah. Abraham was called a prophet, and the Holy Spirit did come upon the prophets, but that's not the same as the regeneration that people receive after Pentecost. Balaam was a prophet, and the Holy Spirit came upon him, but he didn't have the Holy Spirit in the same way that Christians do.

Peter does speak of the Spirit of Christ that was in the prophets. John the baptist had the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. Acts just seems to be time where rather than the Spirit being upon just the prophets it would be poured out upon all flesh in acts.

Having the Spirit of God appears to be regerative even here for example

1 Sam 12:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.