The Doctrines of Grace

[PinSeeker]

No – His promises are contingent on our faith.

Faith is a gift of God by His Spirit (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 12:9). His promises are contingent on nothing but Himself ~ His own perfect will ~ and have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus; He will keep every single one of His promises. Scripture is very clear on this over and over and over again throughout. Our faith ~ again, assurance of eternal life and conviction of sin ~ is a gift from God through which we are saved... and maintained in us by the Holy Spirit, which I backed up with several Bible passages in my previous post. If you think otherwise, then back it up with something ~ something ~ from God's Word. You can't.

Because I have a free will – I can choose to walk away at ANY time.

But you won't. The reason is that your heart has been changed ~ by God, from stone to flesh ~ and one's choices are always... always... driven by the heart. Yes, you can, woodenly speaking, but you won't. It's not a matter of the will, BreadOfLife, it's a matter of the heart.

It’s not about being “good enough”. It’s about whether or not we continue to trust Him.

Glad you said this; agree... but... see directly above. <smile>

Yup – that Peter.

Ah, so Peter contradicted himself. Hmmm...

Nothing in that passage states that we are guaranteed those promises if we walk away from Him.

Our inheritance, which God promises, is guaranteed, as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. But regardless of that, though we can, we will not "walk away" from Him, because we have been given faith, which is a gift of the Spirit, of God. And the calling and gifts of God are irrevocable.

That’s why he says in his 2nd Letter that there are conditions to those promises (2 Pet. 3:17).

As I said, we will meet those "conditions" ~ the better way to say that is that we will persevere in our faith and repentance and obedience, and good works ~ because of the Spirit's work in us in our hearts... what we call His sanctification of us... with which you agreed... Again, Paul exhorts us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13), and Peter says the same thing in this way, that we should "be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall." ~ in our good works we are confirming something that has already been given to us; we cannot confirm anything unless we have it already..

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

You can cherry-pick the verses you like...

No, I provide a smattering of a much, much greater body of work, the whole counsel of God. It's a bit like what the writer of Hebrews says at the end of Hebrews 11... time would fail me to tell of all the Bible passages that speak to what I'm saying.

– but Scripture must be read in CONTEXT . . .

Ohhhhhhh, I absolutely agree. I wish you and other Catholics would do a better job of that... Oh, but that's the Catholic Church's job, right?

He doesn’t force us to cooperate with Him.

Who said He did?

He gives us the tools to endure – but it’s up to US to use them.

And the Spirit, who is at work in us, ensures that we will.

And that is in direct opposition to what Jesus’ lament over Jerusalem:

Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

Now... who was it that was talking about context a moment ago? <smile> Yes, they were not willing, but BECAUSE... <smile> ...their hearts had not been changed, and this is clearly evident in his addressing the people He is speaking of/to, saying, "you who kill the prophets and sone those sent to you." Jesus also says ~ as you well know ~ "My sheep hear my voice, and they follow me." Clearly, those to/of whom He is speaking here are not among His sheep, not among those given to Him by His Father.

And, what you could say here, BreadOfLife is that, in His metaphor here, Jesus is the hen (really our Shepherd), and He gathers His chicks (His sheep, us). Yet again, yes, they were not willing, because they are not among His sheep, those given to Him by the Father... This is intensely consistent with John 10, and intensely consistent with the answers to your previous like citations, such as the passage you pulled from Hebrews 10,

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

This doesn’t say anything about unconditional promises.

God ~ Father, Son, or Holy Spirit ~ never says "I might"... but always "I will."

And what happens when you STOP confessing the Son?

If you one is truly born again of the Spirit, he/she will not. Of his/her own free will and accord.

I’ve seen it happen MANY times.

We can stray from time to time... But if one has truly been given by the Father to Christ, that person will not be lost. Again, as Jesus says, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

“Severed from Christ” and “fallen away from grace” illustrates a person who WAS in Christ and who WAS in a state of grace.

For those of us in Christ, "we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)

This is not talking about those who don’t have a relationship with Christ.

It is. It is very possible to know all about Christ, but not know Him.

GOD created those good works that I do. They’re not mine, so I can’t take credit for them.

You miss the point. In what you are saying, you're making faith into something you manufacture in yourself, which is very much making faith itself out to be a work earning your salvation. Faith is a gift of the Spirit.

He gave me the situation and the tools – and it’s up to ME to complete it. That’s cooperation . . .

No, that's what you were, in being born again of the Spirit, created for. We are God's workmanship. This is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-10. I don't really have a problem with you saying "cooperation," but it's really not that, it's your natural response because of God's work in you. God gives you gifts, BOL, gifts of the spirit ~ faith being one ~ which you can read about in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12.

"Cooperation" really insinuates that you owe part of your salvation ~ and even praise and glory ~ to yourself, which... I mean... no.

Sorry

LOL!

That is NOT the point I was making, as I am not a Universalist.

Good.

I was making the point that we can reject His will.

Understand, but that's quite incorrect when it comes to His gifts and salvific calling, which, as Paul says in Romans 11:29, are irrevocable.

Not at ALL.

As I said, you don't mean to, but yes...

The Catholic Church and its teachings existed lond before the heretics, Pelagius and Arminius.

The universal Church of Jesus Christ, yes... <smile> But Catholicism, no.

Cooperation with God’s grace doesn’t mean that I “merited” a thing.

Your "cooperation" is your merit, but even that is false. You "cooperate" because of the Spirit's ongoing work in you.

It simply means that I allowed HIS grace to work in me.

So your "allowing" is a work... which then makes God's grace ~ unmerited favor ~ out to be something other than grace.

Sorry, but the Bible doesn’t say this on context.

I quoted Paul directly. It's his context... and therefore, God's, as He is the ultimate Author. Goodness gracious.

For every verse that describes how God will help us to persevere - there is a verse that says IF we are willing . . .

Yes, but our willingness depends on His Work in us, in our heart. This is basically a synopsis of most of this misunderstanding of yours, BOL, that you cannot bring yourself to the understanding that none of this is about whether the will is free or not. Of course it is, but the issue is our heart ~ what we are at the center of our being ~ that determines or steers the will. And we must be, as Paul puts it in Romans 8, set free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death, freed from slavery to unrighteousness as he says in Romans 6, and only God can do this. As Jesus says in John 8:36, "if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Scott Downey]

what about other commentary i like j Vernon McGee

so whats your point i hold to Free will freely given freely received

Calvinists affirm free will, but they have it right in that God works in people whom He foreknows as His to bring them to Christ. Otherwise men's free will chose evil things.
This is proven in what Jesus taught in John 5 through 10. Because there is a Satan and man is spiritually blinded in his mind, there is the separation from God, and men have their own delusions firmly believed. Calvinism explains why someone believes according to the scriptures. Man is not free in their minds but bound. God must shine His light in our hearts, only then you will believe in Christ.

The Light of Christ’s Gospel​

1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor [a]handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This thread is about the Doctrines of Grace.

You have proven very well that you do not understand this theology.

No - I’m simply showing the massive holes in the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

That was my point; Sola Scriptura does not posit in any way, shape, or form, that Scripture is the "only authority." But it does posit ~ hold ~ that Scripture... which is to say God and His Word... is the only source of authority for Christian faith and practice. But hey, don't let that stop you from contriving false accusations and arguments...

The Bible doesn’t even claim this about itself . . .

Paul writes that the CHURCH is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).

It does no such thing.

Besides that, now we're really back to talking about claims of who the Church is, right? We very much disagree on that.

There is no "supreme earthly authority." There are earthly authorities of all kinds, and they have authority because God has placed everything according to His will, and their responsibility is to exercise that authority in a Godly mannrr. Some of these earthly authorities use that authority well, and some (I would say most) do not.

Jesus handed over ALL Authority to His Church, to be led by the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15, Luke 10:16).

In Matt. 18:15-18 – Jesus tells His Apostles that that when a brother Sina against another brother – the ultimate Authority in that disagreement is the Church (v. 17). He goes on to echo His words from Matt. 16:19:

"Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Tell me something – where do Protestants go to resolve these issues?

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Canon of Scripture was not "declared by the Catholic Church; that's quite ridiculous, and as Paul says, all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16-17). And two points to the rest of this:

1. You just made the argument for Sola Scriptura, and
2. The Holy Spirit did not just write Scripture (through the efforts of all the Bible writers), but also guided the process of the assembling of Scripture... and even today, preserves it. As Isaiah and Peter (quoting Isaiah) say, "The grass withers and the flower fades, but the Word of our God endures forever."

The Catholic Church has actually added to Scripture, in much the same way as the Mormons did hundreds of years later.

First of all – the Catholic Church DID declare the Canon of Scripture, guided by the Holt Spirit (John 16:12-15).

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified – ALL 73 (not 66) Books.
- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).
- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

Prior to the Church declaring the Canon – MANY other Books that are now considered to be Apocryphal were considered to be Scripture and were read aloud from pulpits for 300 years.

Secondly, the Catholic Church didn’t “add” to Scripture.
Protestantism deleted 7 Books from the Old Testament.

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD – this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see almost 200 references to them.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). It was during THIS time that the Jewish Canon had still been an OPEN Canon during the life of Christ was closed.

So, your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith is a gift of God by His Spirit (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 12:9). His promises are contingent on nothing but Himself ~ His own perfect will ~ and have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus; He will keep every single one of His promises. Scripture is very clear on this over and over and over again throughout. Our faith ~ again, assurance of eternal life and conviction of sin ~ is a gift from God through which we are saved... and maintained in us by the Holy Spirit, which I backed up with several Bible passages in my previous post. If you think otherwise, then back it up with something ~ something ~ from God's Word. You can't.

We were having a fairly charitable conversation – and now you have resorted to being dishonest.

I have given you verse after verse to challenge what I consider to be the false Protestant belief of Eternal Security.
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

And now, you’re saying that I haven’t presented a thing!

But you won't. The reason is that your heart has been changed ~ by God, from stone to flesh ~ and one's choices are always... always... driven by the heart. Yes, you can, woodenly speaking, but you won't. It's not a matter of the will, BreadOfLife, it's a matter of the heart.

So, in your estimation, people never fall out of love? You’ve never seen a marriage dissolve because of that very thing? Does that mean that they were “never” in lobe on the first place?

We are flawed human beings, capable of sinning and even turning our backs on God. I’ve seen this happen MANY times.

Ah, so Peter contradicted himself. Hmmm...

Not at ALL. He clarified himself.

Our inheritance, which God promises, is guaranteed, as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. But regardless of that, though we can, we will not "walk away" from Him, because we have been given faith, which is a gift of the Spirit, of God. And the calling and gifts of God are irrevocable.

Once again – it is GOD who is infinitely faithful – not us.

If that were the case – we would never sin.

As I said, we will meet those "conditions" ~ the better way to say that is that we will persevere in our faith and repentance and obedience, and good works ~ because of the Spirit's work in us in our hearts... what we call His sanctification of us... with which you agreed... Again, Paul exhorts us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13), and Peter says the same thing in this way, that we should "be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall." ~ in our good works we are confirming something that has already been given to us; we cannot confirm anything unless we have it already..

The Bible disagrees with you . . .

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified

 

[KUWN]

Tell me something – where do Protestants go to resolve these issues?

2Thess 3.14. take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.

 

[BreadOfLife]

2Thess 3.14. take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.

Paul is writing to the CHURCH at Thessalonica.
What's your point?

 

[BreadOfLife]

God ~ Father, Son, or Holy Spirit ~ never says "I might"... but always "I will."

And we are told over and over.
“…provided you remain in His Kindness”
“…he who endures”
“…but he who stands firm to the end”
"If you hold to my teaching…”
“…unless you remain in me”
“…if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast”

If you one is truly born again of the Spirit, he/she will not. Of his/her own free will and accord.

Tell that to all of the apostate Christians.

You can’t be apostate unless you once believed . . .

We can stray from time to time... But if one has truly been given by the Father to Christ, that person will not be lost. Again, as Jesus says, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

I agree – NOBODY can snatch you away from Christ.

Only YOU can separate yourself from Him..

For those of us in Christ, "we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)

Like I said – only YOU can separate yourself from Him.

It is. It is very possible to know all about Christ, but not know Him.

Wrong.
Heb. 10:26-27 and 2 Pet. 2:20-22 are talking about people who have an Epignosis of Christ – NOT simply an intellectual assent. Epignosis is a deep, personal and relational knowledge.

You miss the point. In what you are saying, you're making faith into something you manufacture in yourself, which is very much making faith itself out to be a work earning your salvation. Faith is a gift of the Spirit.

No – I think that IS the point.

I said that ALL faith – including the works are from God – and NOT of ourselves. The Church doesn’t teach that works save us. However, works, because they are from God are an essential element of faith (James 2:14-24).

No, that's what you were, in being born again of the Spirit, created for. We are God's workmanship. This is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-10. I don't really have a problem with you saying "cooperation," but it's really not that, it's your natural response because of God's work in you. God gives you gifts, BOL, gifts of the spirit ~ faith being one ~ which you can read about in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12.

"Cooperation" really insinuates that you owe part of your salvation ~ and even praise and glory ~ to yourself, which... I mean... no.

That’s funny, because Paul says that we ARE absolutely cooperators/co-workers (sunergos) in Christ (Rom. 16:3, Rom. 16:21, Phil. 2:25, Phil. 4:3, Col. 4:11, 1 Thess. 3:2, Philem. 1:1).

Understand, but that's quite incorrect when it comes to His gifts and salvific calling, which, as Paul says in Romans 11:29, are irrevocable.

A “gift” is something that can be accepted or rejected.
Otherwise, it’s NOT a gift - but a sentence . . .

The universal Church of Jesus Christ, yes... <smile> But Catholicism, no.

FIRST century Bishop, Ignatius if Antioch wrote the following on his way to martyrdom in Rom at the beginning of the 2nd century:

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Hmmmm . . .
“Follow your Bishop”
“Obey your Clergy”
“The sole Eucharist”
“Catholic Church”

About 50 years later, in the document Martyrdom of Polycarp, we see the term “Catholic Church” again being used as a title and not just a mere description. We also see a list of the Bishops of Rome (Popes) in Irenaeus’s 2nd century document, Against Heresies.

Your "cooperation" is your merit, but even that is false. You "cooperate" because of the Spirit's ongoing work in you.

So your "allowing" is a work... which then makes God's grace ~ unmerited favor ~ out to be something other than grace.

Jesus said that He could not perform miracles where there was no faith (Mark 6:4-13).

In the same way - the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in me if I reject Him.

I quoted Paul directly. It's his context... and therefore, God's, as He is the ultimate Author. Goodness gracious.

There is no such “quote”. It’s loosely based on Rom. 8:32 - and it’s been perverted.

Yes, but our willingness depends on His Work in us, in our heart. This is basically a synopsis of most of this misunderstanding of yours, BOL, that you cannot bring yourself to the understanding that none of this is about whether the will is free or not. Of course it is, but the issue is our heart ~ what we are at the center of our being ~ that determines or steers the will. And we must be, as Paul puts it in Romans 8, set free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death, freed from slavery to unrighteousness as he says in Romans 6, and only God can do this. As Jesus says in John 8:36, "if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

We are absolutely free from the consequences of sin. We’re NOT free from the temporal effects of sin.

Again, as I have shown with MUCH Scriptural evidence – we CAN walk away from God by our own volition.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

what about other commentary i like j Vernon McGee

so whats your point i hold to Free will freely given freely received

what about other commentary i like j Vernon McGee

No - I’m simply showing the massive holes in the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security . . .

You do not show anything but falling through those holes.

 

[KUWN]

Paul is writing to the CHURCH at Thessalonica.
What's your point?

The ruling item was Paul's letter, not the Church.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

We went from the Reformed faith (doctrines of grace) to catholicism.

 

[PinSeeker]

I’m simply showing the massive holes in the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security . . .

Ah, well I'm simply showing the massive holes in the Catholic ~ and Baptist and a host of other denominations ~ idea that eternal life, if given by God, can be somehow lost. Jesus very clearly says in John 10 that it cannot. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29); God does not take away any gift that He has given, even sustaining those gifts in the person by the power of His Holy Spirit. God is able ~ and does ~ keep us from stumbling (Jude 24).

...the Catholic Church DID declare the Canon of Scripture, guided by the Holt Spirit (John 16:12-15).

LOL! So you think Jesus is speaking to the Catholic Church there... Oh, my. He's speaking to His disciples...

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified...

Nope, 325 A.D., at the Council of Nicea called by Constantine. 'Catholic (from Greek: καθολικός, lit. 'universal') was first used to describe the church in the early 2nd century. The first known use of the phrase "the catholic church" (Greek: καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία, katholikḕ ekklēsía) occurred in the letter written about 110 AD from Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, which read: "Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal [katholike] Church." Only later, in the Catechetical Lectures ~ 350 A.D.) of Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, the name "Catholic Church" was used to distinguish it from other groups that also called themselves "the church," and yes, the "Catholic" notion was further stressed by Theodosius in 380 in the edict De fide Catolica. So, Catholicism really originated well after the year 300 A.D., and as I have said, the chief purpose of the Reformation was to return Christianity to the one catholic, Apostolic Church begun just after Christ's ascension and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Again, the Catholic Church added to Scripture much in the same manner as Adam Smith and the Mormons did almost a thousand years later.

Protestantism deleted 7 Books from the Old Testament.

LOL! "Protestantism" didn't exist until Martin Luther in 1517, and Martin Luther's Bible was the same one agreed upon and finalized in 325 A.D.

We were having a fairly charitable conversation

That's... debatable. <smile>

now you have resorted to being dishonest.

Ah, so now you're calling me a liar...

I have given you verse after verse to challenge what I consider to be the false Protestant belief of Eternal Security.

And I have given you verse after verse ~ even many of the ones you have wrongly used to prove eternal insecurity ~ to prove that this gift and promise of eternal security is rock solid, to put it mildly. And let's not make this out to be a difference solely between Catholics and Protestants; many protestant denominations hold to eternal insecurity, too, and are just as wrong as Catholics on that.

And now, you’re saying that I haven’t presented a thing!

No, I didn't say that at all. This has been a very wide-ranging conversation ~ and at least a bit disjointed ~ and there are things you haven't backed up at all. In that instance, in one short sentence, you made a statement refuting what I had said there ~ namely that "Faith is a gift of God by His Spirit (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 12:9)... His promises are contingent on nothing but Himself... His own perfect will... and have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus... He will keep every single one of His promises" ~ and then there was no backup, absolutely nothing. So to that, I responded in the negative, and said you couldn't back up that statement with Scripture. If you think you can, then bring it, BOL. Maybe now you'll say, "Oh, but I have, I have!" Well...

So, in your estimation, people never fall out of love? You’ve never seen a marriage dissolve because of that very thing? Does that mean that they were “never” in love on the first place?

You're really going to compare ~ and put on equal ground, essentially ~ human frailty and unfaithfulness to God's perfect holiness and perfect faithfulness? Really? Surely not.

Once again – it is GOD who is infinitely faithful – not us.

Well there you go. Yes, so that refutes and thus renders your little marriage-and-love comparison between human beings null and void, right?

If that were the case – we would never sin.

It is the case, despite our sin and unfaithfulness.

The Bible disagrees with you . . .

Okay, and I say the Bible disagrees with you... actually that you disagree with the Bible... what God says.

You can’t be apostate unless you once believed . . .

As I said, one can think he or she believed for a time in Christ but later "go out," as John says, but were never really of the people of God (1 John 2:19. Again, John says there, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

I agree – NOBODY can snatch you away from Christ.

"Yet you yourself can"... No, you are included in that 'nobody.'

Only YOU can separate yourself from Him.. Like I said – only YOU can separate yourself from Him.

Nobody means nobody, including you.

Wrong.

Already spoke to this; round and round we go...

I said that ALL faith – including the works are from God – and NOT of ourselves. The Church doesn’t teach that works save us. However, works, because they are from God are an essential element of faith (James 2:14-24).

Good, agreed, except works are not "an essential element of faith"... Works are the natural result of the faith we've been given. What James is saying is that if you have no works, then what faith you may have is a dead faith, which is in self and really worthless, rather than a living faith, which is given by and in God and can never, as a gift of God and kept in us in the power of God, be lost.

A “gift” is something that can be accepted or rejected.

Humanly speaking, that's true. But God is not a human being... <smile>

There is no such “quote”. It’s loosely based on Rom. 8:32 - and it’s been perverted.

LOL! I copied and pasted from the Bible itself. Ah, here it comes... "Oh! Oh! What version?!!!" Goodness gracious.

We are absolutely free from the consequences of sin. We’re NOT free from the temporal effects of sin.

This is a contradiction in and of itself. We are free from condemnation ~ by God ~ for sin, but sin does have consequences and yes, effects now, effected by God. People who believe otherwise are called antinomians.

Again, as I have shown with MUCH Scriptural evidence – we CAN walk away from God by our own volition.

And I have agreed, but though we can, woodenly speaking, if we have been born again of the Spirit and are in Christ, we will not. Not cannot, but will not.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[KUWN]

BreadOfLife said:

I’m simply showing the massive holes in the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security . . .

I have mentioned this before, but here is another member who believes sins eternally condemn us.

 

[Ezra]

BreadOfLife said:

I’m simply showing the massive holes in the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security . . .

I have mentioned this before, but here is another member who believes sins eternally condemn us.

eternal security not near as false as you think.. we have been given Eternal life no man can pluck us out of the fathers hand

John 10:28-30
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one...

does this guarantee were free to do as we please? no living a life of sin /old nature and saying i will make it to heaven ..is NOT Bible and its a good Indikator we was never saved Will we sin sin ? yes measures has been placed for that 1 john 1:9 deed and in truth. 1 john 3: 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

if our heart condemns us we refuse the chastisement then we have not the father.. it is NOT a license to sin.. read romans 6 paul covered that..
curious did you wake up and worry you lost your salvation? if Not that is eternal security our salvation is Kept by the power of GOD amen or o me


​

 

[Ezra]

I'm simply showing the massive holes in the Catholic ~ and Baptist and a host of other denominations ~ idea that eternal life, if given by God, can be somehow lost.

its more of was they ever truly saved ? our salvation is more secured than what most would like to admit

 

[BreadOfLife]

You do not show anything but falling through those holes.

Then, instead of little hit-and-run remarks like that - prove me wrong . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The ruling item was Paul's letter, not the Church.

That claim is based on 2Thess 3.14, which YOU posted.

Go back 1 chapter earlier to 2 Thess. 2:15 and read what Paul says about the Church’s teachings:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

The “US” he is talking about ius Church Authority – not just himself.