The Doctrines of Grace

[KUWN]

Yes, that is his MO.

Just deny what the scriptures say and begin to attack with derogatory statements.

Name one derogatory statement I have made?

 

[KUWN]

Again I will ask, why is there a hell?

Matt 25.41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Just let it be known that you can not answer my question.

Post #358

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Matt 25.41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Are you a universalist, and do not believe in hell for the unregenerate?

 

[KUWN]

Are you a universalist, and do not believe in hell for the unregenerate?

No, Hell/Lake of Fire is a real place where those who have rejected God's offer of salvation will spend eternity in torment.

 

[KUWN]

1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

If I use your interpretation, that means every person who ever lived will be saved, that also measn that the blood of Christ has covered those who do not believe. Therefore no one will be in hell.

This confirms to me that you are not following this discussion. Sins have nothing to do with hell. So, the removal of sins has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation is accepting God's offer of salvation, those who choose to reject God's offer will end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

This confirms to me that you are not following this discussion. Sins have nothing to do with hell. So, the removal of sins has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation is accepting God's offer of salvation, those who choose to reject God's offer will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Sins have nothing to do with hell.

Do explain please.

If you say it is because they do not "believe" that is still sinful, no?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Do explain please.

If you say it is because they do not "believe" that is still sinful, no?

You still did not answer if you are a Universalist.

Do you believe all people go to heaven?

Also, you have strayed from Limited Atonement.

 

[PinSeeker]

...1 Jn 2.2 and 2 Pet 2.1 tells me that Christ paid the price for all sins.

It does, but in the sense that I related to you. But Christ's atonement is only effectual for many, not all; we know there will be some/many who will not be saved.

False teachers are bought/redeemed.

I mean, they can be...

I don't believe that at all.

Fair enough.

All sins have been paid for...

If that is true, then why do some go to hell? Why do the ones of Jesus's left at the final Judgment "depart into the eternal fire" (obediently, actually)?

, no unbeliever will answer for the sins he commits in this life, not in any eternal way.

Ugh. <smile> They will.

No, Hell/Lake of Fire is a real place where those who have rejected God's offer of salvation will spend eternity in torment.

Absolutely. So yes, but does it depend on our acceptance/rejection of God's offer of salvation? Because... no, according to what Paul says in Romans 9:15-18... "For (God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it..." (being one of God's elect) "...depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My Name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."

Remember what Jesus says to two different groups of Jews:

• "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God” (John 8:43-47).
• "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are One" (John 10:25-30)

Sins have nothing to do with hell.

"God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses..". (sins) "...made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved..." (Ephesians 2:4-5)

So, the removal of sins has nothing to do with salvation.

Well, "removal" in the sense of redemption from sin... and Jesus's righteousness therefore credited to us, imputed to us by God, which has everything to do with salvation. Goodness gracious. This is the Gospel.

Salvation is accepting God's offer of salvation, those who choose to reject God's offer will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Ah, yes, free will... here we are yet again... If you are freed from slavery to unrighteousness ~ our heart changed from stone to flesh ~ which has to be done by God; only God can possibly do this ~ then we will accept God's offer of salvation; we will be irresistably compelled to do so, and freely. Without fail. As Paul says of believers:

• "...God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10).

Grace and peace to you, KUWN.

 

[JLB]

Name one derogatory statement I have made?

Not you sir.

ElectedbyHim

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Not you sir.

ElectedbyHim

Name the derogatory statement I have made.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So you think; fair enough. Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) is the biblical truth that the Word of God is the only source ~ source, a very important distinction ~ of authority for Christian faith and practice. There are earthly authorities, for sure, but viewing any of these ~ including the Roman Catholic Church ~ as one's ultimate authority... or even co-authoritative with God ~ is a definite no-no. To this end, I will point out what Jesus, in speaking of earthly authority/authorities, says to Pontius Pilate just before His crucifixion, that he "would have no authority over (Him) at all unless it had been given (him) from above" (John 19:11). And Paul says, "there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God" (Romans 13:1). So again, the ultimate authority is God's and only God's, and God's Word is the only source of authority for Christian faith and practice, and earthly authority can be exercised... poorly. <smile>

Unfortunately for Sola Scripturists – NOWHERE does Scripture claim to be the ONLY Authority. As a matter of fact, Scripture explicitly states that the Church is the supreme earthly Authority.

This is not based on ANY special personal attribute of ANY of its leaders - but on the promise of Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit would gudide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15). This is why we can trust the Canon of Scripture, which was declared by the CHURCH and not by Scripture itself.

Ah, so God's knowing us is conditional on our being faithful...

No – His promises are contingent on our faith.
Because I have a free will – I can choose to walk away at ANY time.

...and He will only keep His promises to us if we are good enough...

It’s not about being “good enough”.
It’s about whether or not we continue to trust Him.

Now, are you talking about the same Peter who just said, "(God) has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5)? That Peter? <chuckles> So both are true, and neither truth can be denied, so there must be some resolution between the two, right. It's not hard...

Yup – that Peter.

Nothing in that passage states that we are guaranteed those promises if we walk away from Him. That’s why he says in his 2nd Letter that there are conditions to those ppromises (2 Pet. 3:17).

You can cherry-pick the verses you like – but Scripture must be read in CONTEXT . . .

God gives us a spirit of "cooperation," and then by His Spirit's ongoing work in us who are in Christ to "cooperate" with Him.

Continued below:

He doesn’t force us to cooperate with Him.
He gives us the tools to endure – but it’s up to US to use them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ahhhh, it always, without fail, comes back to free will with folks who see these things as you do... <chuckles> But we are either slaves to unrighteousness or slaves to righteousness, as Paul says in Romans 6. And we always present ourselves as obedient slaves one way or the other, depending on our spiritual condition. There is no in-between. <chuckles> But thanks be to God, we who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart and, having been set free from sin, we have become slaves of righteousness.

Well, I could say a lot of things in response, but I'll just point out what Paul says to the Philippian Christians (and by extension to us) in Philippians 2:13, where he exhorts us to work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to will and to work for His good pleasure. No one ~ not Paul here, nor any Calvinist, nor anyone who holds to the Reformed faith ~ "denies free will" in any shape, form, or fashion. But we Christians obviously will and work for God's good pleasure because God, by His Spirit, is at work in us... because God has given us a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within us; He has removed the heart of stone from our flesh and given us a heart of flesh, put His Spirit within you, and caused us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules (Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-28). If you think it depends on us to keep that spirit ~ Spirit ~ that God has given us... Well, it absolutely, unequivocally does not. We are children of the promise and therefore counted as Abraham's offspring (Romans 9:8). If you think it depends on us for God to keep His promises to us... Well, again, it absolutely, unequivocally does not.

And that is in direct opposition to what Jesus’ lament over Jerusalem:

Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING. Who loses faith.

They were led by God and had His blessing as HIS people – yet they turned away from Him. He looked upon them as His bride (Isa. 54:5) – and they divorced Him.

This can happen to anybody who loses faith.

"...let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the Founder and Perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2)

This doesn’t say anything about unconditional promises.

"Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life." (1 John 2:23-25).

And what happens when you STOP confessing the Son?
I’ve see it happen MANY times.

Similar to what I said about Hebrews 10 in my previous post, BOL, Paul here is speaking of those who "submit to a yoke of slavery," which God has freed Christians from, indicating clearly the folks who do that ~ submit to a yoke of slavery ~ were never and are not really Christians given the Spirit of God. This is the natural condition of man, but for those who have been born again of the Spirit and thus, as Paul says in verse 24 of that same chapter in Galatians, "belong to Christ Jesus," they "have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." Goodness gracious.

“Severed from Christ” and “fallen away from grace” illustrates a person who WAS in Christ and who WAS in a state of grace.
This is not talking about those who don’t have a relationship with Christ.

Right, agreed (as I said before), but does not depend on it, else it would not be grace, which is unmerited favor. As Paul says in Romans 11:5-6 and Ephesians 2:8-10 (respectively):

• "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace,"

...and:

If YOU give me a gift and I accept it – I didn’t “merit” a thing.
I can also reject it.

• "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

This says it all.

GOD created those good works that I do. They’re not mine, so I can’t take credit for them. He gave me the situation and the tools – and it’s up to ME to complete it.

That’s cooperation . . .

Sure we can. And unless and until one is born again of the Spirit and thus not of God but of the devil, they will not fail to reject it. But if one is born again of the Spirit, then he or she be compelled then, even in and of himself or herself, to, and will not fail to, choose it, and freely so.

Sorry – but you can’t get past Epignosis, as mentioned in Heb. 10:26-27 and 2 Pet. 2:20-22.

As I mentioned before, this word is defined as a “full, experiential and relational knowledge”. It is NOT simply intellectual assent. It is only used 15 times in the NT.

ONLY a born-again believer can have Epignosis of Jesus Christ.

Sure, this is His desire. But BOL, this cannot be read as suggesting that everyone will be saved (universalism) because the rest of the letter makes it clear that some will not be saved (4:1; 5:24; 6:10). Does that then mean that God desires something ~ that all people be saved ~ but He is unable to fulfill this desire? Certainly not; God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2), God's Word never returns to Him empty/void; it accomplishes that which He purposes and succeeds in the thing for which He sends it (Isaiah 55:11), and all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:20).

That is NOT the point I was making, as I am not a Universalist.
I was making the point that we can reject His will.

No, only that God's grace is itself sufficient ~ along with Christ's atonement ~ for everyone to be saved. God gives a great measure of grace to all, and in that sense it is a common grace. but only God's elect are given His salvific ~ saving ~ grace, and it does not fail. You don't mean to, I know, but what you are essentially advocating ~ along with Pelagius and Arminius long before you ~ is, at least to some extent a self-salvation. We do not save ourselves by even the smallest measure.

Not at ALL.
The Catholic Church and its teachings existed lond before the heretics, Pelagius and Arminius.

Cooperation with God’s grace doesn’t mean that I “merited” a thing.
It simply means that I allowed HIS grace to work in me.

They have, yes... actually continued to reject it, as that is the natural inclination of all mankind from birth, "by nature children of wrath" and "dead in their trespasses/sin," as Paul says in Ephesians 2:1-3. But for those who have received God's mercy and compassion ~ which He gives to some but not to others; “'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion'... So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills," as God says through both Moses in Exodus 33:19 and Paul in Romans 9:15-18 ~ these are the ones who upon being born again of the Spirit cease to reject it, and never reject it again.

Sorry, but the Bible doesn’t say this on context.

For every verse that describes how God will help us to persevere - there is a verse that says IF we are willing . . .

 

[ElectedbyHim]

And that is in direct opposition to what Jesus’ lament over Jerusalem:

Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING. Who loses faith.

They were led by God and had His blessing as HIS people – yet they turned away from Him. He looked upon them as His bride (Isa. 54:5) – and they divorced Him.

This can happen to anybody who loses faith.

This doesn’t say anything about unconditional promises.

And what happens when you STOP confessing the Son?
I’ve see it happen MANY times.

“Severed from Christ” and “fallen away from grace” illustrates a person who WAS in Christ and who WAS in a state of grace.
This is not talking about those who don’t have a relationship with Christ.

If YOU give me a gift and I accept it – I didn’t “merit” a thing.
I can also reject it.

This says it all.

GOD created those good works that I do. They’re not mine, so I can’t take credit for them. He gave me the situation and the tools – and it’s up to ME to complete it.

That’s cooperation . . .

Sorry – but you can’t get past Epignosis, as mentioned in Heb. 10:26-27 and 2 Pet. 2:20-22.

As I mentioned before, this word is defined as a “full, experiential and relational knowledge”. It is NOT simply intellectual assent. It is only used 15 times in the NT.

ONLY a born-again believer can have Epignosis of Jesus Christ.

That is NOT the point I was making, as I am not a Universalist.
I was making the point that we can reject His will.

Not at ALL.
The Catholic Church and its teachings existed lond before the heretics, Pelagius and Arminius.

Cooperation with God’s grace doesn’t mean that I “merited” a thing.
It simply means that I allowed HIS grace to work in me.

Sorry, but the Bible doesn’t say this on context.

For every verse that describes how God will help us to persevere - there is a verse that says IF we are willing . . .

This thread is about the Doctrines of Grace.

You have proven very well that you do not understand this theology.

 

[KUWN]

Not you sir.

ElectedbyHim

False teachers are bought/redeemed. I am basically quoting 2 Pet 2.1. Are you saying the I am misreading this passage, along with 2 Cor 5,19 and 1 Jn 2.2

Paul told Timothy that God wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth. Do you believe that God wants all to be saved and that he is in control over that. Why is he so unsuccessful in saving people?

 

[Ezra]

See, by grace you have been saved, and this was not of you, it was His gift in His choosing to save you. God opened your heart to heed His Word, (Christ).

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

i dont deny the process one bit in fact i agree ..i sure didnt want to be there i didnt like the evang. see on that nigh the attar call was given.. GOD through the holy spirit spoke to me sayinggggg.. ITS NOW OR NEVER i chose the now the great invitation .. yes see God Gives us the choice .. you see i am of the whosoever shall HE called i answered i opened the door . im sorry no disrespect.. but i dont buy into this loto waiting for God to call my name . when God pricks your heart and draws you.. just say yes Lord yes Lord yes yes yes .

 

[Scott Downey]

i dont deny the process one bit in fact i agree ..i sure didnt want to be there i didnt like the evang. see on that nigh the attar call was given.. GOD through the holy spirit spoke to me sayinggggg.. ITS NOW OR NEVER i chose the now the great invitation .. yes see God Gives us the choice .. you see i am of the whosoever shall HE called i answered i opened the door . im sorry no disrespect.. but i dont buy into this loto waiting for God to call my name . when God pricks your heart and draws you.. just say yes Lord yes Lord yes yes yes .

Absolutely God gives us the choice. But He determines our paths.

New International Version
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

New Living Translation
We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

English Standard Version
The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

Berean Standard Bible
A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

King James Bible
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

New King James Version
A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

New American Standard Bible
The mind of a person plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

 

[Ezra]

John MacArthur, 1, 2, 3 John, MacArthur New Testament Commentary

what about other commentary i like j Vernon McGee

Absolutely God gives us the choice. But He determines our paths.

New International Version
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

New Living Translation
We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

English Standard Version
The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

Berean Standard Bible
A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

King James Bible
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

New King James Version
A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

New American Standard Bible
The mind of a person plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

so whats your point i hold to Free will freely given freely received

 

[PinSeeker]

Unfortunately for Sola Scripturists – NOWHERE does Scripture claim to be the ONLY Authority.

That was my point; Sola Scriptura does not posit in any way, shape, or form, that Scripture is the "only authority." But it does posit ~ hold ~ that Scripture... which is to say God and His Word... is the only source of authority for Christian faith and practice. But hey, don't let that stop you from contriving false accusations and arguments...

As a matter of fact, Scripture explicitly states that the Church is the supreme earthly Authority.

It does no such thing.

Besides that, now we're really back to talking about claims of who the Church is, right? We very much disagree on that.

There is no "supreme earthly authority." There are earthly authorities of all kinds, and they have authority because God has placed everything according to His will, and their responsibility is to exercise that authority in a Godly mannrr. Some of these earthly authorities use that authority well, and some (I would say most) do not.

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

This is not based on ANY special personal attribute of ANY of its leaders - but on the promise of Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit would gudide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15). This is why we can trust the Canon of Scripture, which was declared by the CHURCH and not by Scripture itself.

The Canon of Scripture was not "declared by the Catholic Church; that's quite ridiculous, and as Paul says, all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16-17). And two points to the rest of this:

1. You just made the argument for Sola Scriptura, and
2. The Holy Spirit did not just write Scripture (through the efforts of all the Bible writers), but also guided the process of the assembling of Scripture... and even today, preserves it. As Isaiah and Peter (quoting Isaiah) say, "The grass withers and the flower fades, but the Word of our God endures forever."

The Catholic Church has actually added to Scripture, in much the same way as the Mormons did hundreds of years later.

Continued below...