The Doctrines of Grace

[Eternally Grateful]

You do not understand what I am saying.

What you said is quite clear.

"salvation is offered to everyone"

No disrespect to you, but you are quite confusing.

I am confusing?

Your the one who said saolvation is offered to everyone. when Jesus did not pay for their sins.

The gospel is preached every day, wherever it is preached sinners are hearing it, whether it be in a church or street corner, the "world" of humans are hearing it. Some will recieve Jesus Christ out of that "world" of humans when it is preached. The mant will not.



It has beem=n paid for those who believe, the elect.

You can not offer to salvation who can not be saved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why hope? The Lord says we can never be taken from Him.

You have to be in him first.

He gave those people over to a depraved mind, thats what Romans1:18ff teaches.

But they have no excuse.

And I was that person once, as were you. Until we repented.

Have you repented?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

What you said is quite clear.

"salvation is offered to everyone"

I am confusing?

Your the one who said saolvation is offered to everyone. when Jesus did not pay for their sins.

You can not offer to salvation who can not be saved.

What I am saying is that the Gopsel is offered to all people. All people hear it when it is preached to a crowd.

We have no idea who God's elect are that will heed the gospel call.

Perhaps a better word than offer is hear. All people will hear the gospel, but only a few will be drawn to it.

Does that make any sense?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

You have to be in him first.

But they have no excuse.

And I was that person once, as were you. Until we repented.

Have you repented?

If I did not repent, I would still be depraved.

I see your in Columbus, so we are neighbors.

Im in Streetsboro, about a half hour south of Cleceland.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What I am saying is that the Gopsel is offered to all people. All people hear it when it is preached to a crowd.

But you did not say that, you said salvation.

Now your back peddling

We have no idea who God's elect are that will heed the gospel call.

Perhaps a better word than offer is hear. All people will hear the gospel, but only a few will be drawn to it.

Does that make any sense?

If they can not be saved, they can not be offered salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If I did not repent, I would still be depraved.

Well there you go.. You repented. and through this, grace was applied to you

I see your in Columbus, so we are neighbors.

Im in Streetsboro, about a half hour south of Cleceland.

Snow belt? Sorry about the Browns. Go Cav's. OH-

 

[ElectedbyHim]

But you did not say that, you said salvation.

Now your back peddling

If they can not be saved, they can not be offered salvation.

I do not think I am back-peddling.

God knows my heart.

If they can not be saved, they can not be offered salvation.

My point is they are still hearing it, even though they reject it.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Well there you go.. You repented. and through this, grace was applied to you

Snow belt? Sorry about the Browns. Go Cav's. OH-

Yes snow belt. I love it.

Thanks, but not a sports fan.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I do not think I am back-peddling.

God knows my heart.



My point is they are still hearing it, even though they reject it.

hearing it and being offered it are not the same

They still can repent (the must) or remain in unbelief

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes snow belt. I love it.

Thanks, but not a sports fan.

I lived in cleveland for 2 years. Stationed on the ice breaker on 9th street

 

[BreadOfLife]

Studying the Bible reveals the error of catholocism.

You wouldn’t even have a Bible without the Catholic Church.

It was the Catholic Church that compiled the Books and declared the Canon of Scripture in the 4th century.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, and that applies to every one of us who have been born again and are thus regenerate by and of the Holy Spirit. Paul uses the same transliterated Greek word in Ephesians 1:6. It is God’s grace, of course, and He has blessed us all with it in the Beloved.

Paul uses the word χηαρισ (khar'-ece) in Eph. 1:6.

The word used to describe Mary is Kecharitomene.

There is no Biblical evidence at all for this. But, I will say it is possible for God to convert anyone to Christ even while he or she is in his or her mother’s womb; John (Elizabeth’s son) is proof of that.

Correct.

No idea what spurred this comment. I certainly didn’t say or suggest such.

The idea that because Mary said that she had a Savior, she was a sinner.

Again, no biblical evidence of this whatsoever. But certainly, she was chosen by God to be the recipient of God’s saving grace before she was born, as all Christians are… even before the foundation of the world.

There is NO Biblical evidence for Sola Scriptura – yet you adhere to that . . .

This is the state of all born-again Christians… which, if one is born again of the Spirit, of course he or she is a Christian… <smile>

Wrong.

The Bible warns that we can fall from grace and lose our security –
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

Salvation is not a slam-dunk event. We are continually being worked on.
The Bible assures us that as Christians, are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it also says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, we have the hope that we WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You wouldn’t even have a Bible without the Catholic Church.

It was the Catholic Church that compiled the Books and declared the Canon of Scripture in the 4th century.

lol

The bible was completed in the 1st century.

God did not wait 400 years to put complete his word.

 

[Verily]

I never understood the argument," that you would not have the bible without us/ the Catholic church" when long before them were those who kept the books read on ever Sabbath and yet how little that mattered in their end in the whole scheme of things.

 

[PinSeeker]

Paul uses the word χηαρισ (khar'-ece) in Eph. 1:6.

The word used to describe Mary is Kecharitomene.

The transliteration of both is charitoō :

Luke 1:28 ('favored one')

Ephesians 1:6 ('God freely bestowed')

Both refer to giving acts of God, the giving of grace, even great grace.

There is NO Biblical evidence for Sola Scriptura – yet you adhere to that . . .

Adding significant concepts and ideas to Scripture by anyone is a no-no (Jesus, Revelation 22).

The Bible warns that we can fall from grace and lose our security –
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

You're certainly not alone in thinking that. And it's true, but the Bible is very clear that if we do fall, it is because we never were given that saving grace and security in the first place. If we are in Christ, there is no more condemnation for sin (Romans 8:1), and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39). And Peter (you know, the guy who you think is the first pope) says God "has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).

For those that do "fall from grace," it is because ~ if they remain having fallen from that grace ~ they never received that grace in the first place. In other words, as John says in 1 John 2, those people go out from us (from among the people of God) because they are not of us (not of God, like us), that if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us (v.19).

Salvation is not a slam-dunk event. We are continually being worked on.

This is a conflation of two things, on one hand, I think by "slam-dunk event," you're saying a "one-time," once-and-for-all" event. Really, the easiest way to clarify this is that salvation is both a one-time event and a process at the same time. In other words, we have been saved ~ justified by God and born again of the Spirit; this is a one-time event, after which our Christian walk begins ~ and we are being saved (kept in the power of the Spirit to the day of Christ and being sanctified, made more like Jesus) at the same time. This is what we call the "now and the not yet" of salvation. But what God began in us, His good work in us, will ~ not might, but will ~ be brought to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

...and a lack of understanding on the other: once we are justified in our sin by the father and subsequently born again of the Spirit, God has begun His good work in us, and this will ~ will, not "might" ~ be brought to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

The Bible assures us that as Christians, are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

Absolutely. I'm glad we agree on this... Think there's an echo in here... here... here... <smile> Right; this is what I've been saying, and not just to you...

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it also says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life...

Absolutely. And again... I'm glad we agree on this... Think there's an echo in here... here... here... <smile> Right; this is what I've been saying, and not just to you...

as we cooperate with his grace.

There's no "cooperation" with God's grace... only our inevitable response to it, which is praise. Imperfect praise, but praise none the less. As John says, we love because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). God's grace is God's grace. And ours is ours, and we are called to have grace because we have been given grace by God. I think you would agree with that, but it is what it is.

Because of this, we have the hope that we WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

Which is sure, and thus a certainty, even now, because it is the power of God, by His Spirit. Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I lived in cleveland for 2 years. Stationed on the ice breaker on 9th street

East 9th pier?

Used to be an old barge/boat, converted to a restaurant called Hornblowers I was a Chef at.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

You wouldn’t even have a Bible without the Catholic Church.

It was the Catholic Church that compiled the Books and declared the Canon of Scripture in the 4th century.

The term “canon” is used to describe the books that are divinely inspired and therefore belong in the Bible. The difficulty in determining the biblical canon is that the Bible does not give us a list of the books that belong in the Bible. Determining the canon was a process conducted first by Jewish rabbis and scholars and later by early Christians. Ultimately, it was God who decided what books belonged in the biblical canon. A book of Scripture belonged in the canon from the moment God inspired its writing. It was simply a matter of God’s convincing His human followers which books should be included in the Bible.

Compared to the New Testament, there was much less controversy over the canon of the Old Testament. Hebrew believers recognized God’s messengers and accepted their writings as inspired of God. While there was undeniably some debate in regards to the Old Testament canon, by A.D. 250 there was nearly universal agreement on the canon of Hebrew Scripture. The only issue that remained was the Apocrypha, with some debate and discussion continuing today. The vast majority of Hebrew scholars considered the Apocrypha to be good historical and religious documents, but not on the same level as the Hebrew Scriptures.

For the New Testament, the process of the recognition and collection began in the first centuries of the Christian church. Very early on, some of the New Testament books were being recognized. Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the Old Testament (1 Timothy 5:18; see also Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7). Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). Some of the books of the New Testament were being circulated among the churches (Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27). Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John.

The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in AD 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John. In AD 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with one book of the Apocrypha) and 26 books of the New Testament (everything but Revelation) were canonical and to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (AD 393) and the Council of Carthage (AD 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.

The councils followed something similar to the following principles to determine whether a New Testament book was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit: 1) Was the author an apostle or have a close connection with an apostle? 2) Is the book being accepted by the body of Christ at large? 3) Did the book contain consistency of doctrine and orthodox teaching? 4) Did the book bear evidence of high moral and spiritual values that would reflect a work of the Holy Spirit? Again, it is crucial to remember that the church did not determine the canon. No early church council decided on the canon. It was God, and God alone, who determined which books belonged in the Bible. It was simply a matter of God’s imparting to His followers what He had already decided. The human process of collecting the books of the Bible was flawed, but God, in His sovereignty, and despite our ignorance and stubbornness, brought the early church to the recognition of the books He had inspired.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

East 9th pier?

Used to be an old barge/boat, converted to a restaurant called Hornblowers I was a Chef at.

Yes Went there a few times.. There was an old barge, the submarine, and coast guard ice breaker

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Yes Went there a few times.. There was an old barge, the submarine, and coast guard ice breaker

Yes sir.

 

[Ezra]

God “sovereignly” saves them without them ever hearing or believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


It’s a Christ-less salvation.

then some one please explain this faith comes by hearing
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.