The Doctrines of Grace

[ElectedbyHim]

So, which is it? Do you loathe sin. Or do you still have to deal with the desire?

Romans 7:14-25 is reminiscent of what the Jews went through memorizing the Ten Commandments and dealing with the desire due to an active sin nature. Romans 7:5-6 is a Christian. They are clean, as in a clean nature. Paul was just showing respect for God's laws, not that he was still under them, because he had the Holy Spirit empowering him. Having a sin nature still would mean you were always in the flesh, but Romans 8:9 says we are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God was dwelling in him. And if they did not have the Spirit of Christ, they did not belong to Christ.

Never said I have a desire for sin. Where did you get that idea from?

Romans 7:14ff is paul as a Chrsitian.

Christians do not have 2 natures as some would believe. However we still struggle with temptation and sin.

There are some who proclaim to be saved and believe they are sinless.

That is unbiblical.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Respectfully, you really haven't been able to prove otherwise.

Either have you.

Honestly I do not need to prove anything because thats not what this thread is about.

Here is a quote from my OP.

This thread has one purpose.

Those of you who claim that these 5 points are heretical, do you also believe that the people who believe in them are not truly regenerate Christians?

If you believe that we are unregenerate, what is your proof?

In no way will I argue with anyone, nevertheless, everyone likes a healthy debate.

If you want to spew insults and hatred, please do not participate, because all that shows is your ignorance and you really have nothing of value to ad to this topic.

So I ask again.

Am I a regenerated man in Christ because I believe in the 5 points of TULIP?

 

[Verily]

I think you can be wrong about a point and be fine

 

[FearTheLord]

Romans 7:14ff is paul as a Chrsitian.

So you're still in bondage to sin?

[Rom 7:14 NASB95] 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
​

That would go against everything Paul taught in Romans 6, Romans 7:1-6, as well as Romans 8. Romans 7:7-24 is not about a born-again believer. It's about the unregenerate state under bondage of sin through the Law. It's not even open for debate. If Romans 7:7-24 is descriptive of your life as a Christian, it means you're not being saved.

[Rom 6:11-12, 14, 18 NASB95] 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, ... 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. ... 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.​

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Never said I have a desire for sin. Where did you get that idea from?

Romans 7:14ff is paul as a Chrsitian.

Christians do not have 2 natures as some would believe. However we still struggle with temptation and sin.

There are some who proclaim to be saved and believe they are sinless.

That is unbiblical.

I see you believe in the "T" of T.U.L.I.P., Total Depravity. That means you believe you will always have a sin nature. Yes, we have one nature, but it is no longer the sin nature we have before being born again. We now have a clean nature, John 15:3, Romans 7:5-6, Romans 8:1-9. Do you believe in the rest of the letters of TULIP? If you don't read in context, you will always chose to see yourself as a sinner. "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." Note that Romans 7:5-6 contradicts verses 14-25. It is 5-6 that is a Christian. You choose 14-25 which is the natural man (verse 14) of 1 Cor. 2:9-16. Those living in the supernatural understand the whole passage because it is their reality. They have supernatural faith and many of the gifts of the Spirit.

One thing many pastors in today's denominations do not understand, because they sure don't teach on it is the circumcision of Christ and what it means to us. Colossians 2:11 "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ." This has to do with our mind and soul which are our nature. Jesus circumcises the foreskin of sin from our sin nature leaving a sinless nature. Not sinless perfection which are two different states of being as are the righteous and the holy, Rev. 22:11. 1 John 3:4-9 talks of Jesus 'taking away" our sin. That is a Christian's circumcision. As you can imagine we do not have two natures. One circumcised, and one not circumcised. But there are many, like yourself and others infected with the "T" in Calvinism, who do not understand Christ's circumcision, and what get's cut off. Some denominations only believe in the "T" in TULIP and are against the rest of the letters. But a little leaven, leavens the whole lump!

 

[ElectedbyHim]

So you're still in bondage to sin?

[Rom 7:14 NASB95] 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
​

That would go against everything Paul taught in Romans 6, Romans 7:1-6, as well as Romans 8. Romans 7:7-24 is not about a born-again believer. It's about the unregenerate state under bondage of sin through the Law. It's not even open for debate. If Romans 7:7-24 is descriptive of your life as a Christian, it means you're not being saved.

[Rom 6:11-12, 14, 18 NASB95] 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, ... 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. ... 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.​

So you're still in bondage to sin?

Never said that.

I struggle with sin.

As I pointed out elsewhere. I have a new nature, I do not believe Christians have an old an new nature (old man, new man).

Do you not stuggle with sin and temptation as a Chrsitian.

Or do you believe you are sinless (sinless perfection)?

Why cant you stay on topic, is it because you have an agenda?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I see you believe in the "T" of T.U.L.I.P., Total Depravity. That means you believe you will always have a sin nature. Yes, we have one nature, but it is no longer the sin nature we have before being born again. We now have a clean nature, John 15:3, Romans 7:5-6, Romans 8:1-9. Do you believe in the rest of the letters of TULIP? If you don't read in context, you will always chose to see yourself as a sinner. "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." Note that Romans 7:5-6 contradicts verses 14-25. It is 5-6 that is a Christian. You choose 14-25 which is the natural man (verse 14) of 1 Cor. 2:9-16. Those living in the supernatural understand the whole passage because it is their reality. They have supernatural faith and many of the gifts of the Spirit.

One thing many pastors in today's denominations do not understand, because they sure don't teach on it is the circumcision of Christ and what it means to us. Colossians 2:11 "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ." This has to do with our mind and soul which are our nature. Jesus circumcises the foreskin of sin from our sin nature leaving a sinless nature. Not sinless perfection which are two different states of being as are the righteous and the holy, Rev. 22:11. 1 John 3:4-9 talks of Jesus 'taking away" our sin. That is a Christian's circumcision. As you can imagine we do not have two natures. One circumcised, and one not circumcised. But there are many, like yourself and others infected with the "T" in Calvinism, who do not understand Christ's circumcision, and what get's cut off. Some denominations only believe in the "T" in TULIP and are against the rest of the letters. But a little leaven, leavens the whole lump!

Total Depravity. That means you believe you will always have a sin nature

This is a false statement.

If you understand Total Depravity, you will see it is talking about the unregenerate.

you will always chose to see yourself as a sinner. "

When one is regenerated, they are extremely aware of their sin. Paul said he was wretched man, he was a believier in Romans 7:14ff, but many do not believe that.

I understand my standinf in Christ, but I am very aware of my sinful flesh and satans attacks.

I do not believe it is Biblical for a Christian to think they are sinless, this seems to be trending.

Can you please answer the question I asled in the OP?

I doi not understand why it is so difficult to stay on topic.

 

[FearTheLord]

Never said that.

Oh, but you said exactly that:

"Romans 7:14ff is paul as a Chrsitian."
​

Romans 7:14 is descriptive of someone who is still in bondage to sin.

[Rom 7:14 NKJV] 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.​

So I'll ask you: Are you still sold under sin???

I struggle with sin.

As I pointed out elsewhere. I have a new nature, I do not believe Christians have an old an new nature (old man, new man).

I'm sorry, but that means you don't believe in what is taught in the scriptures. Your old "nature" should be crucified. It should be powerless. If you're still struggling with it, then it still has power to contend with you.

Do you not stuggle with sin and temptation as a Chrsitian.

There is no temptation I can't escape with Christ (1Cor 10:13). It's more of an inconvenience than a daily struggle.

Or do you believe you are sinless (sinless perfection)?

[Mat 5:48 NASB95] 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

Why cant you stay on topic, is it because you have an agenda?

My agenda is to undermine your false doctrine, and I do believe this is very much on topic.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Oh, but you said exactly that:

"Romans 7:14ff is paul as a Chrsitian."
​

Romans 7:14 is descriptive of someone who is still in bondage to sin.

[Rom 7:14 NKJV] 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.​

So I'll ask you: Are you still sold under sin???


I'm sorry, but that means you don't believe in what is taught in the scriptures. Your old "nature" should be crucified. It should be powerless. If you're still struggling with it, then it still has power to contend with you.


There is no temptation I can't escape with Christ (1Cor 10:13). It's more of an inconvenience than a daily struggle.

[Mat 5:48 NASB95] 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

My agenda is to undermine your false doctrine, and I do believe this is very much on topic.

So. your one of those that do not sin.

You claim sinlessness in this life.

That is heretical teaching.

My agenda is to undermine your false doctrine, and I do believe this is very much on topic.

But you have done nothing of the sort.

Now that you claim you are perfect (sinless).

Most people who believe they are sinless, als believe Jesus Chrsit is not God come in the flesh.

Is that your belief as well?

Answer the OP, because I believe in TULIP, am I saved or not according to Scripture and you?

 

[Ritajanice]

So I'll ask you: Are you still sold under sin???

Romans 6:14-23

King James Version

​

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

 

[Ritajanice]

Answer the OP, because I believe in TULIP, am I saved or not according to Scripture and you?

Brother, we aren’t supposed to be discussing one’s faith or salvation, nor questioning it... ...let’s just address the topic and not wether one is Born Again or not....

 

[FearTheLord]

So. your one of those that do not sin.

You claim sinlessness in this life.

That is heretical teaching.

Peter didn't think so. Neither did Paul.

[1Pe 4:1-2 NASB95] 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

[1Co 15:34 NKJV] 34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak [this] to your shame.​

But you have done nothing of the sort.

I definitely have. You either didn't understand it or you're just denying it.

Most people who believe they are sinless, als believe Jesus Chrsit is not God come in the flesh.

Is that your belief as well?

No. I'm Trinitarian.

Answer the OP, because I believe in TULIP, am I saved or not according to Scripture and you?

I did answer your OP. I proved TULIP to be heretical and a false gospel, and that a born-again Christian is not necessarily one of the elect.

Are Reformed Christians saved?

They may start off that way, but if they continue in Reformed theology instead of understanding the Bible by the Spirit, I don't see how they can be saved. Heresies are a work of the flesh, and those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, I have shown from the scriptures that TULIP is a heresy, and that Romans 7:7-24 is descriptive of the unregenerate life in bondage to sin, under the Law of Moses.

[Gal 5:20-21 NKJV] 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

 

[Verily]

FearTheLord crushed it, on those points. Excellent posts.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Brother, we aren’t supposed to be discussing one’s faith or salvation, nor questioning it... ...let’s just address the topic and not wether one is Born Again or not....

Understaood.

I did not know in my ignorance.

The whole point off my OP is baseed on if those who believe in the 5 points are really saved.

Of course I know the answer already.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Peter didn't think so. Neither did Paul.

[1Pe 4:1-2 NASB95] 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

[1Co 15:34 NKJV] 34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak [this] to your shame.​

I definitely have. You either didn't understand it or you're just denying it.


No. I'm Trinitarian.


I did answer your OP. I proved TULIP to be heretical and a false gospel, and that a born-again Christian is not necessarily one of the elect.

Are Reformed Christians saved?

They may start off that way, but if they continue in Reformed theology instead of understanding the Bible by the Spirit, I don't see how they can be saved. Heresies are a work of the flesh, and those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, I have shown from the scriptures that TULIP is a heresy, and that Romans 7:7-24 is descriptive of the unregenerate life in bondage to sin, under the Law of Moses.

[Gal 5:20-21 NKJV] 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

You did not prove anything.

Since you are sinless, you cannot make any mistakes in interpretinmg the word is that correct?

It is easy to sit on the internet and play that you are sinless like Jesus.

I will do as I have done in other forums with people who believe they are sinless, I just ignore them. It is a shame that you believe that.

I could quote verse that say that you are not sinless, but I have been down this path before.

I just do not take people like you seriously and credible.

Grace and peace to you.

By the way Jesus taught TULIP.....

JESUS ON TOTAL DEPRAVITY
Mark 7:15-23
Mark 10:18
Luke 18:9–14, Jesus commends the tax collector’s realistic view of himself as “a sinner.
John 8:34
John 3:19-21
John 8:44
Matthew 7:18

JESUS ON UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
John 13:18
John 6:37-40
John 17:6-9
John 10:29
Matthew 11:25-30
Matthew 22:14

JESUS ON LIMITED ATONEMENT
John 10:11
John 10:15
Matthew 26:28
Luke 19:10
John 6:35-40

JESUS ON IRRESISTABLE GRACE
John 1:12-13
John 6:63-65
John 17:2
John 6:44
John 6:37
John 11:43

JESUS ON PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
John6:39-40
John 10:27-30
John 5:24
John 6:47
John 17:2
John 3:16

 

[Verily]

You did not prove anything.

Here when you say,

By the way Jesus taught TULIP.....

JESUS ON TOTAL DEPRAVITY

Luke 18:9–14, Jesus commends the tax collector’s realistic view of himself as “a sinner.

Between the two rich men, the rich young ruler and Zacchaeus (who was chief among the publicans and also rich) are examples of worldly sorrow (which worketh death) and a godly sorrow (not to be repented of) when you compare the two examples.

For example in the one shown in the rich young ruler) is the sorrow of the world (he having went away sad at Jesus saying) "having great possessions". In the other rich man who was a chief publican (Zacchaeus) would be of note as one of those which believed John the baptist and in whom can be found Johns teachings (in his actions) even an example of the outworking of a godly sorrow which worketh repentance unto the very salvation Jesus himself stated had come to him that day. He himself being called (By Jesus) "a son of Abraham".

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Here when you say,


Between the two rich men, the rich young ruler and Zacchaeus (who was chief among the publicans and also rich) are examples of worldly sorrow (which worketh death) and a godly sorrow (not to be repented of) when you compare the two examples.

For example in the one shown in the rich young ruler) is the sorrow of the world (he having went away sad at Jesus saying) "having great possessions". In the other rich man who was a chief publican (Zacchaeus) would be of note as one of those which believed John the baptist and in whom can be found Johns teachings (in his actions) even an example of the outworking of a godly sorrow which worketh repentance unto the very salvation Jesus himself stated had come to him that day. He himself being called (By Jesus) "a son of Abraham".

Not sure what your point is.

The tax collector understood he was a sinner.

I do not understand your point, very confusing.

But ok.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Just wanted to say thank you to all who have contributed to this thread.

I was unaware that I cannot talk about ones salvation, which, only makes sense.

Here was part of my OP

This thread has one purpose.

Those of you who claim that these 5 points are heretical, do you also believe that the people who believe in them are not truly regenerate Christians?

If you believe that we are unregenerate, what is your proof?

In no way will I argue with anyone, nevertheless, everyone likes a healthy debate.

If you want to spew insults and hatred, please do not participate, because all that shows is your ignorance and you really have nothing of value to ad to this topic.

So I ask again.

Am I a regenerated man in Christ because I believe in the 5 points of TULIP?

I do apologize to everyone for breaking the rule on this.

I am not a perfect man.

Grace and peace to all of you.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

When asked for proof that the teachings are heretical, all I get is opinions and and deflection.

That's the reformed / calvinist / luther followers don't actually accept the whole counsel of the Lord and believe that some things the Lord said in His Word are lies which is why their understanding has been darkened

If you believe that we are unregenerate, what is your proof?

When these folks die someday and go south rather than north... there's the proof.

How do you maintain your own salvation, if God does not keep you?

If God does everything... are you saying some don't get saved because God prevents them from getting saved?

This is what many in the reformed / calvinist / luthern people think

You should read John 15 where Jesus said those that do not abide in Him... are cut off.

If Jesus telling lies ion John 15?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

That's the reformed / calvinist / luther followers don't actually accept the whole counsel of the Lord and believe that some things the Lord said in His Word are lies which is why their understanding has been darkened



When these folks die someday and go south rather than north... there's the proof.




If God does everything... are you saying some don't get saved because God prevents them from getting saved?

This is what many in the reformed / calvinist / luthern people think

You should read John 15 where Jesus said those that do not abide in Him... are cut off.

If Jesus telling lies ion John 15?

The "many" who are those that do not abide in Him.

They send themselves to hell for their unbelief.

Only 2 types of people in the world, the regenerate and the unregenerate.