The Doctrines of Grace

[ElectedbyHim]

Many self-professed Christians say that the Reformed/Calvinist teachings are heretical.

I have come across and iteracted with many who claim to know these doctrines but are clueless as to what they teach.

When asked for proof that the teachings are heretical, all I get is opinions and and deflection.

I have yet to se a solid argument against any of the points of TULIP.

This thread has one purpose.

Those of you who claim that these 5 points are heretical, do you also believe that the people who believe in them are not truly regenerate Christians?

If you believe that we are unregenerate, what is your proof?

In no way will I argue with anyone, nevertheless, everyone likes a healthy debate.

If you want to spew insults and hatred, please do not participate, because all that shows is your ignorance and you really have nothing of value to ad to this topic.

So I ask again.

Am I a regenerated man in Christ because I believe in the 5 points of TULIP?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Verily]

I am not familar with all the doctrines out there, and I had to "ask what is this tulip and what are the five points of it. I have no clue. I never know what thing is summed up under what thing. But here it says one of them is

Limited Atonement: Jesus Christ’s death on the cross was specifically designed to atone for the sins of the elect, and not for all humanity.

John is the elect and he writes

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[FearTheLord]

@ElectedbyHim

From what I see in the scriptures, a born-again (regenerate) Christian can return to spiritual death through sin. False doctrine (heresy) can lead regenerate Christians into deception, sin, and a fall from grace.

We see this most notably in the regenerate Galatians who fell from grace.

[Gal 3:2-3 NASB95] 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

[Gal 5:4 NASB95] 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.​

When it comes to TULIP, the latter four points are directly dependent upon Total Depravity, which is unbiblical. No one is fundamentally incapable of faith, so regeneration is not equivalent to election, though it is a prerequisite.

1. Abraham was able to believe and obey God without regeneration.

[Gen 26:5 NASB95] 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."
​

2. Obedience was never made too difficult for Israel.

[Deu 30:9-11 NASB95] 9 "Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers; 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.​

3. God commanded Israel to repent and make for themselves a new heart and new spirit, without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

[Eze 18:31 NASB95] 31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?​

So as you can see, Total Depravity is false, and according to Galatians 3 & 5, a regenerate believer can fall from grace, meaning that election is NOT unconditional. That renders the rest of TULIP completely useless.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

@ElectedbyHim

From what I see in the scriptures, a born-again (regenerate) Christian can return to spiritual death through sin. False doctrine (heresy) can lead regenerate Christians into deception, sin, and a fall from grace.

We see this most notably in the regenerate Galatians who fell from grace.

[Gal 3:2-3 NASB95] 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

[Gal 5:4 NASB95] 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.​

When it comes to TULIP, the latter four points are directly dependent upon Total Depravity, which is unbiblical. No one is fundamentally incapable of faith, so regeneration is not equivalent to election, though it is a prerequisite.

1. Abraham was able to believe and obey God without regeneration.

[Gen 26:5 NASB95] 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."
​

2. Obedience was never made too difficult for Israel.

[Deu 30:9-11 NASB95] 9 "Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers; 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.​

3. God commanded Israel to repent and make for themselves a new heart and new spirit, without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

[Eze 18:31 NASB95] 31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?​

So as you can see, Total Depravity is false, and according to Galatians 3 & 5, a regenerate believer can fall from grace, meaning that election is NOT unconditional. That renders the rest of TULIP completely useless.

How do you maintain your own salvation, if God does not keep you?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I am not familar with all the doctrines out there, and I had to "ask what is this tulip and what are the five points of it. I have no clue. I never know what thing is summed up under what thing. But here it says one of them is

Limited Atonement: Jesus Christ’s death on the cross was specifically designed to atone for the sins of the elect, and not for all humanity.

John is the elect and he writes

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

for the whole world. This is a generic term, referring not to every single individual, but to mankind in general. Christ actually paid the penalty only for those who would repent and believe. A number of Scriptures indicate that Christ died for the world (Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Joh_6:51; 1Ti_2:6; Heb_2:9). Since much of the world will be eternally condemned to hell to pay for their own sins, they could not have been paid for by Christ (cf. Mat_7:13-14).

The passages which speak of Christ's dying for the whole world must be understood to refer to mankind in general (as in Tit_2:11). World indicates the sphere, the beings toward whom God seeks reconciliation and has provided propitiation. God has mitigated His wrath on sinners temporarily, by letting them live and enjoy earthly life (see note on 1Ti_4:10). In that sense, Christ has provided a brief, temporal propitiation for the whole world. But He actually satisfied fully the wrath of God eternally only for the elect who believe. Christ's death in itself had unlimited and infinite value because He is Holy God. Thus, His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the penalty for all the sins of all whom God brings to faith. But the actual satisfaction and atonement was made only for those who believe (cf. Joh_10:11, Joh_10:15; Joh_17:9, Joh_17:20; Act_20:28; Rom_8:32, Rom_8:37; Eph_5:25). The pardon for sin is offered to the whole world, but received only by those who believe (cf. 1Jn_4:9, 1Jn_4:14; Joh_5:24). There is no other way to be reconciled to God.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

@ElectedbyHim

From what I see in the scriptures, a born-again (regenerate) Christian can return to spiritual death through sin. False doctrine (heresy) can lead regenerate Christians into deception, sin, and a fall from grace.

We see this most notably in the regenerate Galatians who fell from grace.

[Gal 3:2-3 NASB95] 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

[Gal 5:4 NASB95] 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.​

When it comes to TULIP, the latter four points are directly dependent upon Total Depravity, which is unbiblical. No one is fundamentally incapable of faith, so regeneration is not equivalent to election, though it is a prerequisite.

1. Abraham was able to believe and obey God without regeneration.

[Gen 26:5 NASB95] 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."
​

2. Obedience was never made too difficult for Israel.

[Deu 30:9-11 NASB95] 9 "Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers; 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.​

3. God commanded Israel to repent and make for themselves a new heart and new spirit, without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

[Eze 18:31 NASB95] 31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?​

So as you can see, Total Depravity is false, and according to Galatians 3 & 5, a regenerate believer can fall from grace, meaning that election is NOT unconditional. That renders the rest of TULIP completely useless.

So you do not believe humans are born in sin?

They are basically good?

Rom 3:10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME WORTHLESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Rom 3:13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
Rom 3:14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
Rom 3:15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
Rom 3:18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

 

[FearTheLord]

How do you maintain your own salvation, if God does not keep you?

By simply walking by the Spirit in Jesus' commandments. God keeps us as long as we do that, because it is accomplished by the Spirit who empowers us, not by the power of the flesh.

[Rom 8:13 NASB95] 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

[1Jo 3:23-24 NASB95] 23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.​

 

[FearTheLord]

So you do not believe humans are born in sin?

They are basically good?

Rom 3:10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME WORTHLESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Rom 3:13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
Rom 3:14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
Rom 3:15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
Rom 3:18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

All humans will eventually sin at some point after birth, but no one is born a sinner. We're born in mortal flesh, and it is the fear of death that overwhelms us and tempts us into sin.

All die because all sin; not because we're born sinners.

[Rom 5:12 NASB95] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

[Rom 7:9 NASB95] 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;​

 

[ElectedbyHim]

All humans will eventually sin at some point after birth, but no one is born a sinner. We're born in mortal flesh, and it is the fear of death that overwhelms us and tempts us into sin.

All die because all sin; not because we're born sinners.

[Rom 5:12 NASB95] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

[Rom 7:9 NASB95] 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;​

I believe we are born in sin.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

Romans 5:12-19 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the trespass of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the gracious gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were appointed sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be appointed righteous.

Genesia 8:21 And Yahweh smelled the soothing aroma; and Yahweh said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again strike down every living thing as I have done.

 

[FearTheLord]

I believe we are born in sin.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

David's birth was his mother's iniquity, not his own. This was likely because under the Law of Moses, a woman had to make a sin offering as part of her cleansing after child birth.

[Lev 12:2, 6 NASB95] 2 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying: 'When a woman gives birth and bears a male [child,] then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean. ... 6 'When the days of her purification are completed, for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the doorway of the tent of meeting a one year old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering.​

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

This doesn't really support your argument. In Psalm 58, David was contrasting the righteous from the wicked. He's not treating every man as wicked, since in verse 10-11 he speaks of the righteous. At best you might be able to say that this alludes to election, but this is more likely hyperbole. Otherwise the implication is that the righteous are righteous from birth.

[Psa 58:10-11 NASB95] 10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. 11 And men will say, "Surely there is a reward for the righteous; Surely there is a God who judges on earth!"​

Romans 5:12-19 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the trespass of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the gracious gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were appointed sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be appointed righteous.

Again, Romans 5 does not support the notion that we're born sinners. I've already addressed this.

Genesia 8:21 And Yahweh smelled the soothing aroma; and Yahweh said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again strike down every living thing as I have done.

Youth is not the same as from birth.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Many self-professed Christians say that the Reformed/Calvinist teachings are heretical.

I have come across and iteracted with many who claim to know these doctrines but are clueless as to what they teach.

When asked for proof that the teachings are heretical, all I get is opinions and and deflection.

I have yet to se a solid argument against any of the points of TULIP.

This thread has one purpose.

Those of you who claim that these 5 points are heretical, do you also believe that the people who believe in them are not truly regenerate Christians?

If you believe that we are unregenerate, what is your proof?

In no way will I argue with anyone, nevertheless, everyone likes a healthy debate.

If you want to spew insults and hatred, please do not participate, because all that shows is your ignorance and you really have nothing of value to ad to this topic.

So I ask again.

Am I a regenerated man in Christ because I believe in the 5 points of TULIP?

Grace and peace to you.

Well, does a regenerated person keep sinning and breaking the last 6 of the 10 commandments?

Or just has immature fruit of the Spirit, but keep the 10 commandments because they lost all desire to break them?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

David's birth was his mother's iniquity, not his own. This was likely because under the Law of Moses, a woman had to make a sin offering as part of her cleansing after child birth.

[Lev 12:2, 6 NASB95] 2 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying: 'When a woman gives birth and bears a male [child,] then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean. ... 6 'When the days of her purification are completed, for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the doorway of the tent of meeting a one year old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering.​

This doesn't really support your argument. In Psalm 58, David was contrasting the righteous from the wicked. He's not treating every man as wicked, since in verse 10-11 he speaks of the righteous. At best you might be able to say that this alludes to election, but this is more likely hyperbole. Otherwise the implication is that the righteous are righteous from birth.

[Psa 58:10-11 NASB95] 10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. 11 And men will say, "Surely there is a reward for the righteous; Surely there is a God who judges on earth!"​

Again, Romans 5 does not support the notion that we're born sinners. I've already addressed this.


Youth is not the same as from birth.

I know you arguments very well on these texts and do not agree.

You are saying that man is born basically good.

The Bible never teaches that.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Well, does a regenerated person keep sinning and breaking the last 6 of the 10 commandments?

Or just has immature fruit of the Spirit, but keep the 10 commandments because they lost all desire to break them?

My desire is what God desires.

Sin should disgust the Christian, I loathe it.

All Christians have to deal with sin until they go home to the Lord.

Romans 7:14ff comes to mind.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

My desire is what God desires.

Sin should disgust the Christian, I loathe it.

All Christians have to deal with sin until they go home to the Lord.

Romans 7:14ff comes to mind.

So, which is it? Do you loathe sin. Or do you still have to deal with the desire?

Romans 7:14-25 is reminiscent of what the Jews went through memorizing the Ten Commandments and dealing with the desire due to an active sin nature. Romans 7:5-6 is a Christian. They are clean, as in a clean nature. Paul was just showing respect for God's laws, not that he was still under them, because he had the Holy Spirit empowering him. Having a sin nature still would mean you were always in the flesh, but Romans 8:9 says we are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God was dwelling in him. And if they did not have the Spirit of Christ, they did not belong to Christ.

 

[Verily]

1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

for the whole world. This is a generic term, referring not to every single individual, but to mankind in general. Christ actually paid the penalty only for those who would repent and believe. A number of Scriptures indicate that Christ died for the world (Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Joh_6:51; 1Ti_2:6; Heb_2:9). Since much of the world will be eternally condemned to hell to pay for their own sins, they could not have been paid for by Christ (cf. Mat_7:13-14).

The passages which speak of Christ's dying for the whole world must be understood to refer to mankind in general (as in Tit_2:11). World indicates the sphere, the beings toward whom God seeks reconciliation and has provided propitiation. God has mitigated His wrath on sinners temporarily, by letting them live and enjoy earthly life (see note on 1Ti_4:10). In that sense, Christ has provided a brief, temporal propitiation for the whole world. But He actually satisfied fully the wrath of God eternally only for the elect who believe. Christ's death in itself had unlimited and infinite value because He is Holy God. Thus, His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the penalty for all the sins of all whom God brings to faith. But the actual satisfaction and atonement was made only for those who believe (cf. Joh_10:11, Joh_10:15; Joh_17:9, Joh_17:20; Act_20:28; Rom_8:32, Rom_8:37; Eph_5:25). The pardon for sin is offered to the whole world, but received only by those who believe (cf. 1Jn_4:9, 1Jn_4:14; Joh_5:24). There is no other way to be reconciled to God.

It's that one of its points is rather pointless

Limited Atonement: Jesus Christ’s death on the cross was specifically designed to atone for the sins of the elect, and not for all humanity.

John is the elect and he writes

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

THE Elect John says "NOT for ours ONLY"

 

[JunChosen]

I have come across and iteracted with many who claim to know these doctrines but are clueless as to what they teach.

When asked for proof that the teachings are heretical, all I get is opinions and and deflection.

I have yet to se a solid argument against any of the points of TULIP.

This thread has one purpose.

Those of you who claim that these 5 points are heretical, do you also believe that the people who believe in them are not truly regenerate Christians?

If you believe that we are unregenerate, what is your proof?

In no way will I argue with anyone, nevertheless, everyone likes a healthy debate.

If you want to spew insults and hatred, please do not participate, because all that shows is your ignorance and you really have nothing of value to ad to this topic.

So I ask again.

Am I a regenerated man in Christ because I believe in the 5 points of TULIP?

Grace and peace to you.

My sentiments exactly,

However, there is someone in these forums who is a self proclaimed evangelist and who hates the reformed teachings, especially....Calvin! But like many Christians "who does not understand Bible doctrines and its' interpretations." you might hear from him. Beware! though he's pretty smart, but alas, his heart is in the wrong place.

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

I am not familar with all the doctrines out there, and I had to "ask what is this tulip and what are the five points of it. I have no clue. I never know what thing is summed up under what thing. But here it says one of them is

Limited Atonement: Jesus Christ’s death on the cross was specifically designed to atone for the sins of the elect, and not for all humanity.

Have you ever read Matthew 1:21 which reads?....."you shall call His name Jesus for He shall save His people from their sins." (paraphrased).

John is the elect and he writes

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Note* John's audience were the Jews and he included himself in the phrase "And He (Jesus) is the propitiation for our (Jews) sins and not for ours (Jews only,) but also for the sins wherever the (Jews) are scattered in the world.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Verily]

Have you ever read Matthew 1:21 which reads?....."you shall call His name Jesus for He shall save His people from their sins." (paraphrased).

Yes

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Note* John's audience were the Jews and he included himself in the phrase "And He (Jesus) is the propitiation for our (Jews) sins and not for ours (Jews only,) but also for the sins wherever the (Jews) are scattered in the world.

Nah, it says, NOT OURS ONLY

Romans 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

 

[Verily]

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said,
I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 1:22 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS:
for he shall save his people from their sins.

1 John 2:22 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people!

One fold, and one Shepherd

Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

 

[FearTheLord]

I know you arguments very well on these texts and do not agree.

You are saying that man is born basically good.

The Bible never teaches that.

Respectfully, you really haven't been able to prove otherwise.