tailgator
Well-Known Member
Figures
You believe everyone who die the fly up to heaven and are not even buried.
How many people have you seen ascend into heaven as Jesus did?
The difference between The Resurrection and the first resurrection.
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You believe everyone who die the fly up to heaven and are not even buried.
How many people have you seen ascend into heaven as Jesus did?
So, you have no tangible active spiritual victory over eternal death at the moment?
Are you for real? You will deny any truth to let your Premil error fit. You do not have the liberty to let the Bible speak for itself. To do so would expose your extra-biblical theory. You are so blinkered. You cannot be objective.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
You believe everyone who are partakers of the holy Spirit never die?
How about these who put Christ to an open shame,?
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nonsense. In the case of those who are dead, at least, it's already determined what their eternal destiny will be. For the second death to have power over someone means that their eventual eternal destiny is the lake of fire. So, the question I'm asking is, at what point can it be said that someone no longer has the lake of fire as their eternal destiny? Does it have power over the dead in Christ who are in heaven right now?
Will you never stop this ridiculous NOSAS argument? Setting aside the dumb NOSAS argument in relation to those who are alive, let's just talk about those who are mentioned in Revelation 20, which are the souls of the dead in Christ. Does the second death have power over them right now? It does not, right? They are already guaranteed to inherit the kingdom of God and not be cast into the lake of fire, so the second death has no power over them right now. To me that means they have already had part in the first resurrection because Revelation 20:6 says in relation to those who have part in the first resurrection, that the second death has no power over them. So, it's not the case that one has to be bodily resurrected in order for them to have part in the first resurrection and for the second death to not have power over them. If that was the case then what about those who are still alive when Christ comes? They're just out of luck since they can't have part in the first resurrection and can't be counted among the blessed and holy of whom the second death has no power over?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
I've received the holy Ghost but so have others who put Christ to an open shame.Just because someone might be partakers of the holy Spirit doesn't mean they can't burn.
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, is it your view that the second death has power over the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven right now then since you say it's not until the last trumpet when our bodies are changed that the second death no longer has power over us? Do you think it's still possible for the dead in Christ who are in heaven now to experience the second death by being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15). Or is their eternal destiny already sealed? If it's already sealed (it is) then how can the second death have any power over them right now?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
The second death has no power over Christ who is in heaven right now.Jesus plainly said he was dead but lives for evermore.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why can you not answer straightforward questions with straightforward answers? Am I asking too much? I'll try one more time.
At what point does it become true that the second death no longer has power over someone? When we're born again? When we're bodily resurrected? Please just answer the question straightforwardly.
Whatever your answer to that question is, wouldn't it be the case that at that point in time that someone has had part in the first resurrection since it says "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power"?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Ah, here we go. Now we can see why you disagree with amil. You believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep. Naturally, no one who believes in soul sleep will agree that the souls of the dead in Christ reign with Christ in heaven.
The second death has no power over the dead in Christ right now because their destinies are sealed. But, because of your belief in the false doctrine of soul sleep, you can't even recognize something as simple as this.
As for John 3:13, He said that before His death and resurrection. After His death and resurrection, the souls of the dead in Christ were brought to paradise/the third heaven. Paul said that to be absent from the body (physically dead) was to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8), so that proves that you don't need to have a body in order to be in heaven with the Lord. That's why John said he saw the souls of those who were dead in heaven (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4).
tailgator
Well-Known Member
I believe the son of man is the only one who came from heaven and is the only one who has ascended to heaven just as Jesus said .
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
How many persons you believe came from heaven?
Or are you saying John 3:13 is false doctrine,?
The first resurrection only involves a bodily resurrection. Not one single time does it involve a resurrection that is not bodily, including Revelation 20:4-6. How can we know for certain? Let's start with the following facts. John only mentions 2 resurrection events in Revelation 20. 1) the first resurrection. 2) when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years, the 2nd and final resurrection event. With that in mind let's look at some of the following.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection , and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
This is when the first resurrection begins and that it was bodily.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Here we see 2 resurrection events, both bodily, they that have done good, and they that have done evil
Per Revelation 20:4-6 there are only 2 resurrection events to choose from, 1) and 2). Obviously, since 2) is meaning this resurrection event in John 5:29---they that have done evil---it only stands to reason that in John 5:29---they that have done good--is meaning 1) in Revelation 20:4-6. It certainly can't be meaning 2) in Revelation 20:4-6 since 2) in Revelation 20:4-6 is meaning this in John 5:29---they that have done evil.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
This passage too involves a bodily resurrection and that it must, as in no choice since there are no other options to select from, be pertaining to 1) or 2) in Revelation 20:4-6. Obviously, it is not pertaining to 2) in Revelation 20:4-6 since 2) is pertaining to---they that have done evil--in John 5:29. Therefore, it obviously has to be pertaining to 1) in Revelation 20:4-6.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This passage too involves a bodily resurrection and that it must, as in no choice since there are no other options to select from, be pertaining to 1) or 2) in Revelation 20:4-6. Obviously, it is not pertaining to 2) in Revelation 20:4-6 since 2) is pertaining to---they that have done evil--in John 5:29. Therefore, it obviously has to be pertaining to 1) in Revelation 20:4-6.
Just like I said then. The first resurrection never involves a resurrection other than a bodily one. Apparently, per Amil, Amils would have us believe that the bodily resurrection of saints is meaning 2) in Revelation 20:4-6 rather than 1), since they are arguing that 1) doesn't involve any saints bodily rising.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Let's focus on this part---But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Where does it ever say per that part that any of them too are blessed and holy? Where does it ever say that any of them too, the 2nd death has no power over them? Where does it ever say, they that have part in the first resurrection, they too don't live again until after the thousand years are finished?
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection , and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
This is when the first resurrection begins and that it was bodily.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Here we see 2 resurrection events, both bodily, they that have done good, and they that have done evil
Per Revelation 20:4-6 there are only 2 resurrection events to choose from, 1) and 2). Obviously, since 2) is meaning this resurrection event in John 5:29---they that have done evil---it only stands to reason that in John 5:29---they that have done good--is meaning 1) in Revelation 20:4-6. It certainly can't be meaning 2) in Revelation 20:4-6 since 2) in Revelation 20:4-6 is meaning this in John 5:29---they that have done evil.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
This passage too involves a bodily resurrection and that it must, as in no choice since there are no other options to select from, be pertaining to 1) or 2) in Revelation 20:4-6. Obviously, it is not pertaining to 2) in Revelation 20:4-6 since 2) is pertaining to---they that have done evil--in John 5:29. Therefore, it obviously has to be pertaining to 1) in Revelation 20:4-6.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This passage too involves a bodily resurrection and that it must, as in no choice since there are no other options to select from, be pertaining to 1) or 2) in Revelation 20:4-6. Obviously, it is not pertaining to 2) in Revelation 20:4-6 since 2) is pertaining to---they that have done evil--in John 5:29. Therefore, it obviously has to be pertaining to 1) in Revelation 20:4-6.
Just like I said then. The first resurrection never involves a resurrection other than a bodily one. Apparently, per Amil, Amils would have us believe that the bodily resurrection of saints is meaning 2) in Revelation 20:4-6 rather than 1), since they are arguing that 1) doesn't involve any saints bodily rising.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Let's focus on this part---But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Where does it ever say per that part that any of them too are blessed and holy? Where does it ever say that any of them too, the 2nd death has no power over them? Where does it ever say, they that have part in the first resurrection, they too don't live again until after the thousand years are finished?
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I believe the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven, not their bodies. John saw them there.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
No one but Jesus has BODILY ascended to heaven yet. Why do you not differentiate between the body, soul and spirit?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
I don't need to differentiate anything.The only one who has ascended into heaven is he that came from heaven.
Can you name some of these people other than Christ who you say came from heaven?
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
He said that before the resurrection. Hello! He has led captivity captive by defeating sin, death and Hades.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Don't ask dumb questions. There is no false doctrine in scripture itself. What do you think I would say, "Yes, that's false doctrine"? Get a clue. As of the time He said that, which was before His death and resurrection, it was true that no one else had gone to heaven. But, the souls of the dead in Christ were taken to heaven after His death and resurrection.
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
If someone is absent from the body and present with the Lord then where else can they be except in heaven with the Lord? You can't win this debate by trying to argue in favor of the false doctrine of soul sleep, so you need to give up on that idea.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why do you act as if He said no one had ever gone into heaven except Him at that point and no one else ever would? That's not what He said.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
The only one who has ascended to heaven is he that came from heaven.Who are you saying come from heaven,?
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
We're not saying anyone else came from heaven, we're saying the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now. Where else did John see the souls of the dead except in heaven?
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Why can't you understand that what Jesus said in John 3:13 was as of the time He said that. It doesn't mean no one else went to heaven after that. Good grief. Soul sleep is a false doctrine. Period. It can't be defended with scripture.
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