The Crucified Flesh

[Johann]

It

It's the former. Clearly if it's impossible to renew those who have fallen away back to repentance, then they had to have repented to begin with. I just take the scriptures as they speak....even the parable of the ten virgins warns us. They were all virgins (ie, betrothed) who had lamps and all were awaiting the bridegroom. There are many scriptures that warn and exhort us.....like His rod and His staff, to prod us along and keep us on the right track, and to correct us and prod us back onto the right track if we start to go awry of it.

No, I cannot agree with you-it seems you make a distinction between the elect-and the born from above-when they are the same.
Do you have any assurance re your salvation?

 

[Lizbeth]

But Hebrews 6 is NOT speaking about born again believers-and there is something I wanted to ask you a long time ago-do you read Calvin's commentaries?
So, in Hebrews 6 the eklektoi cannot be deceived-impossible to be deceived-yet "born again" believers-sealed with the Holy Spirit can be deceived?
Someone else even went so far, yesterday, to say it is the elect, in this passage, which can fall away.
I am familiar with the conditional clauses-

Yes, it is, I believe. It's talking to those who were still on the milk and "by now ought to be teachers" (end of Heb 5 chapter)....they had to be believers. And what's more I believe it is warning against falling away in context of those who fail to grow and go on to perfection. Jesus is not coming for an infant bride......we need to be prepared and ready for His return by being matured and grown up. Those who are yet children and fail to grow are easily deceived and blown around by every wind of doctrine:

Eph 4:14

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

 

[Johann]

I don't see how anyone can only be partially reconciled to God....either you are or you're not. Either repented and turned to God or not. I don't know what conclusions gifted men and scholars have concluded, I'm not educated in that regard, but I just try to hear what the Spirit is saying in the scrips. I know it's not an easy subject to grasp, but we need ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.

So do I-go by what stands written- so you are the elect of God in Christ-you are IN-and only the elect are saved-and the Spirit is continually co-witnessing with your spirit-leading you, guiding you.
Just one question-how do you know that you are part of the elect?

 

[Johann]

Yes, it is, I believe. It's talking to those who were still on the milk and "by now ought to be teachers" (end of Heb 5 chapter)....they had to be believers. And what's more I believe it is warning against falling away in context of those who fail to grow and go on to perfection. Jesus is not coming for an infant bride......we need to be prepared and ready for His return by being matured and grown up. Those who are yet children and fail to grow are easily deceived and blown around by every wind of doctrine:

Eph 4:14

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

So you are full grown, no more tossed to and fro, part of the elect-divinely guided-no more sinning-excellent

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

--ever heard "to whomsoever?"

 

[Lizbeth]

Note. The Holy Spirit does NOT depart from those who were justified by grace through faith and received THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit.

In the context of Hebrews the "falling away" is the reverting back of Hebrew Christians to the Law of Moses and trying to maintain salvation through the works of the Law. Galatians also provides insight into this. This goes all the way back to chapter 3: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God... For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end...

Here "the living God" is Christ as is obvious from everything that is being said. Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus...

In any event Paul addresses these Christians as "holy brethren" and later on assures them that their salvation is secure.

It is difficult for Gentile Christians to understand the struggle of Hebrew Christians after they were saved. They had been taught all along to obey the Law of Moses. But after they received the gift of the Holy Spirit they could not understand that they were free from bondage to the Law. Even Peter had a very hard time associating with Gentiles since he was a strict Jew and Gentiles were "dogs". It is Paul who was able to clarify the difference and teach the Jews that they were no longer under the Old Covenant and that Jews and Gentiles were all one in Christ.

Hebrews 6 is talking to believing, Christ-following Jews....but in context of growth if we look at end of Ch 5 and Ch 6 together, not specifically in context falling back into being under the Law, though that is a danger as well and certainly one way a believer could fall away.

 

[Lizbeth]

No, I cannot agree with you-it seems you make a distinction between the elect-and the born from above-when they are the same.
Do you have any assurance re your salvation?

I belong to the Lord and He is with me, but I don't take it for granted.

 

[Johann]

I belong to the Lord and He is with me, but I don't take it for granted.

Do you have assurance re your eternal salvation?

 

[Lizbeth]

So do I-go by what stands written- so you are the elect of God in Christ-you are IN-and only the elect are saved-and the Spirit is continually co-witnessing with your spirit-leading you, guiding you.
Just one question-how do you know that you are part of the elect?

1Co 4:4

For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you have assurance re your eternal salvation?

Yes, if I endure to the end and don't fall away.

 

[Johann]

I belong to the Lord and He is with me, but I don't take it for granted.

Yes, it is, I believe. It's talking to those who were still on the milk and "by now ought to be teachers" (end of Heb 5 chapter)....they had to be believers. And what's more I believe it is warning against falling away in context of those who fail to grow and go on to perfection. Jesus is not coming for an infant bride......we need to be prepared and ready for His return by being matured and grown up. Those who are yet children and fail to grow are easily deceived and blown around by every wind of doctrine:

So you make a distinction between the elect and those who who are born from above, sealed with the Holy Spirit?

 

[Lizbeth]

So you are full grown, no more tossed to and fro, part of the elect-divinely guided-no more sinning-excellent

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

--ever heard "to whomsoever?"

Why are you making this about me all of a sudden. I'm certainly not making any claims for myself. On the contrary, I am seeking to grow and be ready for the return of Christ.

 

[Lizbeth]

So you make a distinction between the elect and those who who are born from above, sealed with the Holy Spirit?

Not necessarily. I haven't done a study on the term elect in scripture, but it does seem that sometimes it is a term being used based on God's foreknowledge. Sometimes I think it may be spoken about all believers in a "hopeful" sense, hoping the best, like where it says love hopes all things.

 

[Johann]

1Co 4:4

For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.

Why are you making this about me all of a sudden. I'm certainly not making any claims for myself. On the contrary, I am seeking to grow and be ready for the return of Christ.

I'll back off.

 

[Johann]

Not necessarily. I haven't done a study on the term elect in scripture, but it does seem that sometimes it is a term being used based on God's foreknowledge. Sometimes I think it may be spoken about all believers in a "hopeful" sense, hoping the best, like where it says love hopes all things.

Isa_42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa_45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa_65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Isa_65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mar_13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk_18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Rom_8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Col_3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1Ti_5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

2Ti_2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Tit_1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1Pe_2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

2Jn_1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2Jn_1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Shalom
J.

 

[Enoch111]

Just one question-how do you know that you are part of the elect?

The elect are those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and been washed in the blood of the Lamb: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2).

As we can see above the elect are also those who are obedient to God and Christ.

 

[ChristisGod]

The elect are those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and been washed in the blood of the Lamb: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2).

As we can see above the elect are also those who are obedient to God and Christ.

As Jesus said you will know them by their fruits, a good tree bears good fruit. And only a born again believer as He taught will bear much fruit and prove to be His disciples by denying self, taking us their cross daily and following Him.

 

[Lizbeth]

Isa_42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa_45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa_65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Isa_65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mar_13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk_18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Rom_8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Col_3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1Ti_5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

2Ti_2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Tit_1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1Pe_2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

2Jn_1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2Jn_1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Shalom
J.

Yes, Israel was God's elect, but in spite of that only a remnant were saved. These things happened unto them for ensamples.

 

[Lizbeth]

So you are full grown, no more tossed to and fro, part of the elect-divinely guided-no more sinning-excellent

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

--ever heard "to whomsoever?"

Did you "hear" what was being said?

 

[Lizbeth]

Read down farther in the same letter and it makes it very clear what it means .
IF WE TURN away FROM FAITH IN CHRIST , and are overcome , die in that sin of unbelief , THERE WILL BE NO MORE sacrifice for sins .
THEY DONE TROD JESUS UNDER FOOT . The key is BELIEVE YE IN HIM whom GOD DID SEND
HOLD the FAITH IN HIM FIRM , the HOPE IN HIM FIRM , to the end . We need to always be stirrred up
and stirring one another up with those pure reminders . GOD works through the believers to KEEP them safe .
Thus we ought to use those same reminders and warnings and promises to keep one another stirred up .

"keep on willfully sinning...no more sacrifice for sins"

Brother, it makes me think of those Catholics who wilfully sin all week long knowing they can just "have communion" and "go to confession" on Sunday or whenever, to have their wilful sins absolved. Even Italian Mafia gangsters do that. Is it possible there were Jews who were of that same mind? Just do what they please and then go sacrifice a dove or a lamb to make it all right..? Aren't there believers of that mind too, thinking Jesus' sacrifice made it all right for them to do as they please? It's why the bible says we are not to use our freedom as a license to sin.

 

[Johann]

Did you "hear" what was being said?

Nothing wrong with my "hearing" but have problems with what I 'perceive" in my spirit.