The Crucified Flesh

[Lizbeth]

Once enlightened, Jesus is the true light coming into the world that enlightens every man. He came an taught them, and revealed His Own life. Tasted of the heavenly gift (received the healings, the deliverances), shared in the Holy Spirit (the 12, the 70, sent out with power), tasted the good word of God (experienced Jesus), the power of the world to come (signs and wonders), all these which can describe those who were there to be a part of Jesus' ministry.

In the same way is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, to claim that the spirit behind Jesus' miracles was an unclean spirit, so as to deny the testimony of Jesus' works. This is something the Pharisees were doing. Like John wrote, first saying, And they believed not, and then saying, So they could not believe.

The fact is that if this passage were speaking of the regenerate, the child of God, the saint, or any of the other ways we are described, though those terms are not used, if it were speaking of us then you get one shot and that's it. If you fall away, you're "one and done", and there is no return.

And the writer goes on to talk about the different soils, that which bears fruit, and that which bears thorns and thistles, that which is approved of God, and what is reprobate, that is, rejected after testing, just as in the parable of the Sower.

Much love!

Brother, I think the falling away that is being spoken of in that verse has to be more than just the committing of a single sin, or even of backsliding, which people have been restored back to the Lord from according to many testimonies. I think it must be speaking of the seed of the word having died in them....the Holy Spirit departing them entirely. Maybe it happens in some because of encountering trials and becoming bitter against God, I don't know....thinking of what would have happened to Job if he had cursed God, for example.

If those who "fall away" were never born again believers to begin with, they would have had nothing to fall away from...that term just wouldn't apply to them.

 

[Lizbeth]

Does this mean that those who fall away had not been given to Jesus by the Father?

Much love!

Then you are contradicting yourself. ;)

"Impossible to renew them to repentance" has to mean that they had repented to begin with, but later fell away.

 

[Johann]

Then you are contradicting yourself. ;)

"Impossible to renew them to repentance" has to mean that they had repented to begin with, but later fell away.

So, if I understand you correctly-you make a case that a true, born from above believer in Christ can fall away-according to Hebrews 6-yes?

 

[Johann]

This verse needs to be understood and resolved in light of other scriptures that warn against falling away or being cut off. It's attesting to and affirming the power of God to save....to raise the dead in Christ and grant them immortality. It's assumed that Jesus is talking about those who "remain in Me" , not those who fall away or are cut off. "All those He has given me" is speaking from God's point of view in heaven...His foreknowledge....saying that He has power to save them all (those who He foreknows will remain in Him).

There's a reason why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling....don't do things that we know are sinful. Here are some more warnings:

--in other words-if we continue to do things that are sinful-we are "out" of Christ, and presently falling away, unable to --this includes/exclude the elect-if I am twisting your words, correct me, please.

and then, having fallen away, and become shmad-- it is impossible to renew them again to teshuva, because they have pierced to themselves the Ben HaElohim on HaEtz HaKelalat Hashem and have again held him up to contempt and open bushah (shame).

 

[Johann]

I don't know about that brother....it says what it says. It's specifically referring to those who have come to a knowledge of the truth, ie, believers.....who will receive the same judgment as unbelievers if they keep on willfuly sinning.

Dwight Pentecost has a good note to introduce this most controversial section of Scripture which has caused many believers considerable distress - It is unfortunate that some believers struggle and agonize under the misconception that, although they desire to walk with God, they have regressed beyond some “point of no return” and can never again walk in fellowship with Him. If you have a heartfelt longing to live for Jesus Christ, that desire alone shows that your heart has not been hardened to Him! All that remains is for you to turn to Him in commitment and submission, and to resume your progress toward maturity. (Pentecost, J. D., & Durham, K. Faith that Endures: A Practical Commentary on the Book of Hebrews. Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications)

R Bruce Compton in his discussion of Hebrews 6:4-6 rightly comments that…

The warning passage in Hebrews 6:4, 5, 6 continues to be a notorious crux in New Testament interpretation. The difficulty comes in harmonizing the description in He 6:4, 5 of those who have “tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit” with the statement in He 6:6 about their “falling away” and not being able to be brought back to repentance. The juxtaposition of these verses has raised a number of questions. Are the experiences predicated in He 6:4, 5 tantamount to salvation, or are they describing something that approximates salvation but falls short of it? If He 6:4, 5 are describing salvation, is He 6:6 describing the loss of salvation? Furthermore, why does He 6:6 say that it is “impossible” to restore those who fall away, or is restoration possible? And, lastly, what precisely is the danger being warned about in these verses? Are those in view being threatened with the loss of reward or with eternal condemnation, with hell itself? The purpose of this article is to survey the views found in the commentaries and related literature on this passage and to update the arguments for the view that supports both the eternal security of the believer and the need for believers to persevere in the faith.

The various interpretations of this passage in contemporary literature may be conveniently catalogued under four views. The views themselves are generally distinguished according to their understanding of the spiritual status of those addressed and the nature of the warning being issued. The four views are

(1) true believer: apostasy/loss of salvation;

(2) true believer: apostasy/loss of reward;

(3) true believer: hypothetical apostasy/loss of salvation; and

(4) false believer: apostasy/eternal condemnation.

These views are briefly discussed in this section to identify their salient strengths and weaknesses and to establish a basis for a more detailed examination of the passage in the following section…

… Conclusion: The chief strength with the fourth view is its interpretation of He 6:6. Specifically, it defines the sin in the warning passages as the sin of apostasy, a conscious and deliberate rejection of the gospel. Furthermore, this sin as an irremediable act whose ultimate consequence is eternal condemnation and judgment. The preceding discussion has substantiated this interpretation. This rules out the second view which argues that the judgment in these verses is that of the saved. The judgment in the warning passages is not that of the saved. It is the final and eternal judgment of God against the unsaved. In addition, it has been demonstrated from He 6:6 that this sin is neither hypothetical nor impossible. In fact, it was argued from He 10:25,26 that some who had been associated with the readers had actually committed this sin. This negates the third view which argues that this sin was both hypothetical and impossible.

Lastly, it was argued that Scripture teaches the eternal security of those who are saved. Salvation, once received, can never be lost. This rules out the first view which argues that the warning involved the loss of salvation. Neither this nor the other warning passages, in describing the action of an apostate, are describing one who is saved. That leaves the fourth view as the only alternative.

The author of Hebrews had confidence in the salvation of his readers, as was seen in He 6:9, 10, 11, 12. Yet, in He 10:26, he indicates that some had forsaken the services of the local congregation and had repudiated the faith they had at one time professed. Moreover, in He 5:11, 12, 13, 14, the author of Hebrews chastises the readers for growing inattentive to God’s Word and to their responsibilities for spiritual growth. This combination compels him to exhort his readers to perseverance and to warn any who might fall away of the dire consequences of such an act. They were to persevere in the faith because, according to He 3:14, only those who persevere show themselves to be partakers of Christ and truly saved.

This does not mean that perseverance in the faith
is a condition for salvation.

Rather,

perseverance in the faith is understood
as the mark of those who are saved.

Were any to fall away, they would show they had not been partakers of Christ, that is, that they never had been saved. Furthermore, by falling away they would be committing an irremediable act which would inevitably bring God’s condemnation and wrath. (Persevering And Falling Away: A Reexamination Of Hebrews 6:4–6 Detroit Baptist Seminary Journal 1. Spring 1996 p136) (Bolding
added)

Which is it @Lizbeth?

 

[Johann]

The KJV Bible Commentary - For centuries Hebrews 6 has been a battleground. That fact alone ought to warn us to study carefully and to conclude slowly concerning the teaching of these verses. The crux of the issue is whether or not a born-again believer can lose his salvation. Though many interpretations of these verses have been proposed, four common, contemporary views merit listing. (Dobson, E G, Charles Feinberg, E Hindson, Woodrow Kroll, H L. Wilmington: KJV Bible Commentary: Nelson)

J Vernon McGee - As we study this section, we are immediately confronted with the amazing fact that generally commentators have avoided this chapter. Even such a man as Dr. G. Campbell Morgan, the prince of expositors, has completely bypassed it in his book on Hebrews. However, when we do come upon the interpretations available and summarize each, we can well understand why men have chosen to remain clear of this scene of confusion because we can get many interpretations. (McGee, J V: Thru the Bible Commentary: Thomas Nelson)

Dr Charles Ryrie summarizes the interpretative views of Hebrews 6:4-6 writing that…

This much-debated passage has been understood in several ways.

(1) Arminians hold that the people described in these verses are Christians who actually lose their salvation. If this be so, notice that the passage also teaches that it is impossible to be saved a second time.

(2) Some hold that the passage refers not to genuine believers but to those who only profess to be believers. Thus the phrases in verses 4-5 are understood to refer to experiences short of salvation (cf. v. 9). The "falling away" is from the knowledge of the truth, not personal possession of it.

(3) Others understand the passage to be a warning to genuine believers to urge them on in Christian growth and maturity. To "fall away" is impossible (since, according to this view, true believers are eternally secure), but the phrase is placed in the sentence to strengthen the warning. It is similar to saying something like this to a class of students: "It is impossible for a student, once enrolled in this course, if he turns the clock back which cannot be done, to start the course over. Therefore, let all students go on to deeper knowledge." In this view the phrases in verses 4-5 are understood to refer to the conversion experience. (The Ryrie Study Bible: New American Standard Translation: 1995. Moody Publishers)

You want to hear Calvin's interpretation of this portion in Hebrews 6?-so which is it @Lizbeth?

 

[Johann]

Respected Pastor and Commentator Ray Stedman entitles his section on Hebrews

The Danger of Knowledge Without Faith (Hebrews 6:4-8) This solemn warning marks one of the great theological battlefields of Scripture. Here the clashing proponents of Calvinism and Arminianism have wheeled and charged, unleashing thunderous volleys of acrimony against one another, only to generate much heat and little profit. The Calvinists, mindful of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints (eternal security), seize upon the words It is impossible … if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance. “These cannot,” they say, “be truly regenerated Christians, no matter how strongly the descriptive phrases of verses 4–5 seem to imply they are, for otherwise they would not fall away into irremediable apostasy.” On the other hand, the Arminians focus on the descriptive phrases and say, “It is impossible to portray true Christians any more powerfully and accurately than is done here; therefore, since they are said to fall away it is clear that regeneration can be lost after it has been obtained.” A third group of interpreters insist that the question of eternal salvation is not in question here at all, since it is only a matter of urging new Christians on to further understanding of their fellowship with Christ.

As in the case of many clashes over Scripture, there is truth in different views. We are helped here by viewing the readers not as a homogenous group who must all be classified in one category or another. Rather, they are a mixed assembly, among whom were many genuine believers needing a degree of prodding to go on in their experience of truth. There were also some who professed faith in Christ but who gave no evidence in their behavior or attitudes that they were truly regenerate. This is the case in many churches today and has been so in every generation of believers from the first century on. No matter what careful expedients are employed to make sure that all church members are born again, it is almost certain that there is no congregation which is not just such a mixed multitude as the writer of Hebrews addresses. The ratio of true believers to apparent believers may vary widely, but since we cannot distinguish these by observation (or even careful testing), we must view these warnings as applying to us all. (Hebrews 6:4-8 The Danger of Knowledge Without Faith)

--which reminds me of the 5 wise-5 foolish virgins Matthew 25.

 

[amigo de christo]

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Like you, I firmly believe in once saved-always saved, based on your Scripture references and mine.

Yet if one follows another jesus that leads into darkness and sin , WELL they aint Born again . Lambs follow THE ONE TRUE CHRIST JESUS .
And if an imposter stands in His name , or preaches another jesus or another gospel , THEY WONT BUY that lie .
The problem is many are as i once was . I could holler the name of Christ from time to time but my heart was FAR from Him .
Being born again is new birth given by the SPIRIT unto the believer which CONVERTS the heart . Yes indeed .

 

[Johann]

I likewise fully agree!

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If you've been raised with Him, this means you've died with Him, and that you will appear with Him in Glory.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

If we are His children now, when we see Jesus, we will be like Jesus.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If you are a citizen of heaven, Jesus will change "the body of our humiliation" to be like His glorious body.

Ephesians 4:30 KJV
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit is God's seal of ownership of us, preserving His claim upon us until the day He claims His possession.

1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God is Who keeps us by His power, having assured us an incorruptible inheritance, reserved for us, this based on Jesus' resurrection from the dead, an accomplished fact, outside of ourselves.

Romans 5:18 KJV
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:18 LITV
So then, as through one deviation it was toward all men to condemnation, so also through one righteous act toward all men to justification of life.

Romans 5:18 EMTV
Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 KJV
18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God reconciled the world to Himself quite apart from us. We receive a reconciliation obtained on our behalf by Jesus, through His death, "one man's righteous act", and His resurrection.

This was accomplished having nothing to do with how good or bad anyone is, God did this for the world through Jesus, and we simply receive or we don't.

Romans 5:10-11 LITV
10) For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life;
11) and not only so, but also glorying in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we now received the reconciliation.

God reconciled sinners to Himself, not because they were righteous, they were unrighteous. All of us! We've received a free gift reconciliation to God, and having received the reconciliation, having received Jesus, are are born into His family.

If we were reconciled to God even being His enemy, even before receiving that reconciliation, and now, having received, we are His very children, how much better relationship do we have with our Creator? Infinitely better, it's through Jesus Christ, the Son of God Himself!

Much love!

--and the much controversial Hebrews 6 is brought up-that the "elect" CAN fall away-or, believers IN Christ CAN fall away.

 

[Johann]

Yet if one follows another jesus that leads into darkness and sin , WELL they aint Born again . Lambs follow THE ONE TRUE CHRIST JESUS .
And if an imposter stands in His name , or preaches another jesus or another gospel , THEY WONT BUY that lie .
The problem is many are as i once was . I could holler the name of Christ from time to time but my heart was FAR from Him .
Being born again is new birth given by the SPIRIT unto the believer which CONVERTS the heart . Yes indeed .

Yes indeed my brother-and to add icing to the cake-Hebrews 6 is now brought up-the much debated, controversial Hebrews 6--

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

As touching those who were once enlightened (tous hapax phōtisthentas). First aorist passive articular participle (the once for all enlightened) of photizō, old and common verb (from phōs) as in Luk_11:36. The metaphorical sense here (cf. Joh_1:9; Eph_1:18; Heb_10:32) occurs in Polybius and Epictetus. The accusative case is due to anakainizein in Heb_6:6. Hapax here is “once for all,” not once upon a time (pote) and occurs again (Heb_9:7, Heb_9:26, Heb_9:27, Heb_9:28; Heb_12:26, Heb_12:27).
Tasted of the heavenly gift (geusamenous tēs dōreas tēs epouraniou). First aorist middle participle of geuō, old verb once with accusative (Heb_6:5, kalon rēma, dunameis), usually with genitive (Heb_2:9) as here.
Partakers of the Holy Ghost (metochous pneumatos hagiou). See Heb_3:14 for metochoi. These are all given as actual spiritual experiences.
And then fell away (kai parapesontas). No “then” here, though the second aorist (effective) active participle of parapiptō, old verb to fall beside (aside), means that. Only here in N.T. In Gal_5:4 we have tēs charitos exepesate (ye fell out of grace, to law, Paul means).


--does it mean genuine, born again believers-or having an outward show of godliness-but inwardly full of dead bones?

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes indeed my brother-and to add icing to the cake-Hebrews 6 is now brought up-the much debated, controversial Hebrews 6--

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

As touching those who were once enlightened (tous hapax phōtisthentas). First aorist passive articular participle (the once for all enlightened) of photizō, old and common verb (from phōs) as in Luk_11:36. The metaphorical sense here (cf. Joh_1:9; Eph_1:18; Heb_10:32) occurs in Polybius and Epictetus. The accusative case is due to anakainizein in Heb_6:6. Hapax here is “once for all,” not once upon a time (pote) and occurs again (Heb_9:7, Heb_9:26, Heb_9:27, Heb_9:28; Heb_12:26, Heb_12:27).
Tasted of the heavenly gift (geusamenous tēs dōreas tēs epouraniou). First aorist middle participle of geuō, old verb once with accusative (Heb_6:5, kalon rēma, dunameis), usually with genitive (Heb_2:9) as here.
Partakers of the Holy Ghost (metochous pneumatos hagiou). See Heb_3:14 for metochoi. These are all given as actual spiritual experiences.
And then fell away (kai parapesontas). No “then” here, though the second aorist (effective) active participle of parapiptō, old verb to fall beside (aside), means that. Only here in N.T. In Gal_5:4 we have tēs charitos exepesate (ye fell out of grace, to law, Paul means).


--does it mean genuine, born again believers-or having an outward show of godliness-but inwardly full of dead bones?

Any who continues not were not truly of us . For had they been of us they no doubt would have continued .
Let us always use all reminders in the bible as well .
Reminding lambs they must continue in the faith is a GOOD thing and its needful to be said .
But if any comes out , the truth is they were never truly of us .
They might have tasted , might have endured for a bit , might even think they know HIM too . That is the scary part .
When i say scary i mean for those who were given over to beleive a lie , another jesus , a jesus that served their sin .
Hearts are hardened through the decietfulness of sin . Paul knew that , GOD KNOWS IT .
Thus its why i say let us use EVERY warning , every reminder of those holy and prescious GOD inspired words .
Sometimes folks omit warnings . We ought not to do that .
I know if one comes out they were never truly of us . I also know that lambs WILL USE every reminder to protect
and build up the church . There is a good reason why those apostles left warnings and reminders .
That is the problem i have with some in the OSAS camp . THEY omit those warnings
and then act like if i bring them to our reminder , somehow i dont trust in Christ . WELL , HE SAID IT TO HIS OWN FIRST .
Thus if HE said YE must continue in HIM , I SAY ye must continue in HIM . But yes , I KNOW
that if folks come out from amongst us , THEY were never TRULY OF US . I do know that . Our HOPE
is in THE LORD . HE has the lambs . Our sufficiency is OF GOD and not ourselves . We can do nothing WITHOUT HIM .
Well when i say nothing there is one thing we can do without HIM , FAIL and PERISH . ITS HE ALONE WE OWE ALL TOO .
And we were saved not by our own works or merits but by GRACE . it is THE GIFT OF GOD .
NOW LET ALL that has breath hurry and come running to CHRIST , for why will the wicked perish
when they could have eternal life in CHRIST . Be a new changed creature created unto GOOD WORKS IN CHRIST .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes indeed my brother-and to add icing to the cake-Hebrews 6 is now brought up-the much debated, controversial Hebrews 6--

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

As touching those who were once enlightened (tous hapax phōtisthentas). First aorist passive articular participle (the once for all enlightened) of photizō, old and common verb (from phōs) as in Luk_11:36. The metaphorical sense here (cf. Joh_1:9; Eph_1:18; Heb_10:32) occurs in Polybius and Epictetus. The accusative case is due to anakainizein in Heb_6:6. Hapax here is “once for all,” not once upon a time (pote) and occurs again (Heb_9:7, Heb_9:26, Heb_9:27, Heb_9:28; Heb_12:26, Heb_12:27).
Tasted of the heavenly gift (geusamenous tēs dōreas tēs epouraniou). First aorist middle participle of geuō, old verb once with accusative (Heb_6:5, kalon rēma, dunameis), usually with genitive (Heb_2:9) as here.
Partakers of the Holy Ghost (metochous pneumatos hagiou). See Heb_3:14 for metochoi. These are all given as actual spiritual experiences.
And then fell away (kai parapesontas). No “then” here, though the second aorist (effective) active participle of parapiptō, old verb to fall beside (aside), means that. Only here in N.T. In Gal_5:4 we have tēs charitos exepesate (ye fell out of grace, to law, Paul means).


--does it mean genuine, born again believers-or having an outward show of godliness-but inwardly full of dead bones?

Read down farther in the same letter and it makes it very clear what it means .
IF WE TURN away FROM FAITH IN CHRIST , and are overcome , die in that sin of unbelief , THERE WILL BE NO MORE sacrifice for sins .
THEY DONE TROD JESUS UNDER FOOT . The key is BELIEVE YE IN HIM whom GOD DID SEND
HOLD the FAITH IN HIM FIRM , the HOPE IN HIM FIRM , to the end . We need to always be stirrred up
and stirring one another up with those pure reminders . GOD works through the believers to KEEP them safe .
Thus we ought to use those same reminders and warnings and promises to keep one another stirred up .

 

[Lizbeth]

--in other words-if we continue to do things that are sinful-we are "out" of Christ, and presently falling away, unable to --this includes/exclude the elect-if I am twisting your words, correct me, please.

and then, having fallen away, and become shmad-- it is impossible to renew them again to teshuva, because they have pierced to themselves the Ben HaElohim on HaEtz HaKelalat Hashem and have again held him up to contempt and open bushah (shame).

It includes those who are born again believers.

But the term elect might sometimes be referring to those the Lord foreknows will remain in Christ until the end. This is why Jesus said the false christs and false prophets would deceive IF IT WERE POSSIBLE EVEN THE VERY ELECT. Some believers will be deceived to the point of falling away, but in that passage He is calling "elect" or very elect, those God foreknows will remain faithful to the true gospel until the end....hence it's not really "possible" to deceive those who He already knows will not be deceived.

Heb 3:12-14

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For WE ARE MADE PARTAKERS OF CHRIST "IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END;

 

[Johann]

Read down farther in the same letter and it makes it very clear what it means .
IF WE TURN away FROM FAITH IN CHRIST , and are overcome , die in that sin of unbelief , THERE WILL BE NO MORE sacrifice for sins .
THEY DONE TROD JESUS UNDER FOOT . The key is BELIEVE YE IN HIM whom GOD DID SEND
HOLD the FAITH IN HIM FIRM , the HOPE IN HIM FIRM , to the end . We need to always be stirrred up
and stirring one another up with those pure reminders . GOD works through the believers to KEEP them safe .
Thus we ought to use those same reminders and warnings and promises to keep one another stirred up .

Amen brother!
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

the foundation: Pro_10:25; Isa_14:32, Isa_28:16; Mat_7:25; Luk_6:48; 1Co_3:10-11; Eph_2:20; 1Ti_6:19; Heb_11:10; Rev_21:14
standeth: Mat_24:24; Mar_13:22; Rom_8:31-35, Rom_9:11; Heb_6:18-19; 1Jn_2:19
sure: or, steady, Psa_112:6, Psa_125:1-2
having: Hag_2:23; Zec_3:9, Zec_4:7-9; Eph_4:30
The Lord: Num_16:5; Psa_1:6, Psa_37:18, Psa_37:28; Nah_1:7; Mat_7:23; Luk_13:27; Joh_10:14; Joh_10:27-30, Joh_13:18; Rom_8:28, Rom_11:2; 1Co_8:3; Gal_4:9; Rev_17:8
Let: Num_6:27; Psa_97:10; Isa_63:19, Isa_65:15; Mat_28:19; Act_9:14, Act_11:26, Act_15:17; Rom_15:9, Rom_15:20; 1Co_1:2; Eph_3:15; Rev_2:13, Rev_3:8, Rev_22:4
depart: Job_28:28; Psa_34:14, Psa_37:27; Pro_3:7; Rom_12:9; 2Co_7:1; Eph_4:17-22; Eph_5:1-11; Col_3:5-8; Tit_2:11-14; 1Pe_1:13-19; 2Pe_1:4-10, 2Pe_3:14; 1Jn_3:7-10

 

[Lizbeth]

It

Dwight Pentecost has a good note to introduce this most controversial section of Scripture which has caused many believers considerable distress - It is unfortunate that some believers struggle and agonize under the misconception that, although they desire to walk with God, they have regressed beyond some “point of no return” and can never again walk in fellowship with Him. If you have a heartfelt longing to live for Jesus Christ, that desire alone shows that your heart has not been hardened to Him! All that remains is for you to turn to Him in commitment and submission, and to resume your progress toward maturity. (Pentecost, J. D., & Durham, K. Faith that Endures: A Practical Commentary on the Book of Hebrews. Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications)

R Bruce Compton in his discussion of Hebrews 6:4-6 rightly comments that…

The warning passage in Hebrews 6:4, 5, 6 continues to be a notorious crux in New Testament interpretation. The difficulty comes in harmonizing the description in He 6:4, 5 of those who have “tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit” with the statement in He 6:6 about their “falling away” and not being able to be brought back to repentance. The juxtaposition of these verses has raised a number of questions. Are the experiences predicated in He 6:4, 5 tantamount to salvation, or are they describing something that approximates salvation but falls short of it? If He 6:4, 5 are describing salvation, is He 6:6 describing the loss of salvation? Furthermore, why does He 6:6 say that it is “impossible” to restore those who fall away, or is restoration possible? And, lastly, what precisely is the danger being warned about in these verses? Are those in view being threatened with the loss of reward or with eternal condemnation, with hell itself? The purpose of this article is to survey the views found in the commentaries and related literature on this passage and to update the arguments for the view that supports both the eternal security of the believer and the need for believers to persevere in the faith.

The various interpretations of this passage in contemporary literature may be conveniently catalogued under four views. The views themselves are generally distinguished according to their understanding of the spiritual status of those addressed and the nature of the warning being issued. The four views are

(1) true believer: apostasy/loss of salvation;

(2) true believer: apostasy/loss of reward;

(3) true believer: hypothetical apostasy/loss of salvation; and

(4) false believer: apostasy/eternal condemnation.

These views are briefly discussed in this section to identify their salient strengths and weaknesses and to establish a basis for a more detailed examination of the passage in the following section…

… Conclusion: The chief strength with the fourth view is its interpretation of He 6:6. Specifically, it defines the sin in the warning passages as the sin of apostasy, a conscious and deliberate rejection of the gospel. Furthermore, this sin as an irremediable act whose ultimate consequence is eternal condemnation and judgment. The preceding discussion has substantiated this interpretation. This rules out the second view which argues that the judgment in these verses is that of the saved. The judgment in the warning passages is not that of the saved. It is the final and eternal judgment of God against the unsaved. In addition, it has been demonstrated from He 6:6 that this sin is neither hypothetical nor impossible. In fact, it was argued from He 10:25,26 that some who had been associated with the readers had actually committed this sin. This negates the third view which argues that this sin was both hypothetical and impossible.

Lastly, it was argued that Scripture teaches the eternal security of those who are saved. Salvation, once received, can never be lost. This rules out the first view which argues that the warning involved the loss of salvation. Neither this nor the other warning passages, in describing the action of an apostate, are describing one who is saved. That leaves the fourth view as the only alternative.

The author of Hebrews had confidence in the salvation of his readers, as was seen in He 6:9, 10, 11, 12. Yet, in He 10:26, he indicates that some had forsaken the services of the local congregation and had repudiated the faith they had at one time professed. Moreover, in He 5:11, 12, 13, 14, the author of Hebrews chastises the readers for growing inattentive to God’s Word and to their responsibilities for spiritual growth. This combination compels him to exhort his readers to perseverance and to warn any who might fall away of the dire consequences of such an act. They were to persevere in the faith because, according to He 3:14, only those who persevere show themselves to be partakers of Christ and truly saved.

This does not mean that perseverance in the faith
is a condition for salvation.

Rather,

perseverance in the faith is understood
as the mark of those who are saved.

Were any to fall away, they would show they had not been partakers of Christ, that is, that they never had been saved. Furthermore, by falling away they would be committing an irremediable act which would inevitably bring God’s condemnation and wrath. (Persevering And Falling Away: A Reexamination Of Hebrews 6:4–6 Detroit Baptist Seminary Journal 1. Spring 1996 p136) (Bolding
added)

Which is it @Lizbeth?

It's the former. Clearly if it's impossible to renew those who have fallen away back to repentance, then they had to have repented to begin with. I just take the scriptures as they speak....even the parable of the ten virgins warns us. They were all virgins (ie, betrothed) who had lamps and all were awaiting the bridegroom. There are many scriptures that warn and exhort us.....like His rod and His staff, to prod us along and keep us on the right track, and to correct us and prod us back onto the right track if we start to go awry of it.

 

[Lizbeth]

Amen brother!
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

the foundation: Pro_10:25; Isa_14:32, Isa_28:16; Mat_7:25; Luk_6:48; 1Co_3:10-11; Eph_2:20; 1Ti_6:19; Heb_11:10; Rev_21:14
standeth: Mat_24:24; Mar_13:22; Rom_8:31-35, Rom_9:11; Heb_6:18-19; 1Jn_2:19
sure: or, steady, Psa_112:6, Psa_125:1-2
having: Hag_2:23; Zec_3:9, Zec_4:7-9; Eph_4:30
The Lord: Num_16:5; Psa_1:6, Psa_37:18, Psa_37:28; Nah_1:7; Mat_7:23; Luk_13:27; Joh_10:14; Joh_10:27-30, Joh_13:18; Rom_8:28, Rom_11:2; 1Co_8:3; Gal_4:9; Rev_17:8
Let: Num_6:27; Psa_97:10; Isa_63:19, Isa_65:15; Mat_28:19; Act_9:14, Act_11:26, Act_15:17; Rom_15:9, Rom_15:20; 1Co_1:2; Eph_3:15; Rev_2:13, Rev_3:8, Rev_22:4
depart: Job_28:28; Psa_34:14, Psa_37:27; Pro_3:7; Rom_12:9; 2Co_7:1; Eph_4:17-22; Eph_5:1-11; Col_3:5-8; Tit_2:11-14; 1Pe_1:13-19; 2Pe_1:4-10, 2Pe_3:14; 1Jn_3:7-10

Yes, He foreknows those who are His, who will remain in Christ and endure until the end.

 

[Johann]

It includes those who are born again believers.

But the term elect might sometimes be referring to those the Lord foreknows will remain in Christ until the end. This is why Jesus said the false christs and false prophets would deceive IF IT WERE POSSIBLE EVEN THE VERY ELECT. Some believers will be deceived to the point of falling away, but in that passage He is calling "elect" or very elect, those God foreknows will remain faithful to the true gospel until the end....hence it's not really "possible" to deceive those who He already knows will not be deceived.

Heb 3:12-14

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For WE ARE MADE PARTAKERS OF CHRIST "IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END;

But Hebrews 6 is NOT speaking about born again believers-and there is something I wanted to ask you a long time ago-do you read Calvin's commentaries?
So, in Hebrews 6 the eklektoi cannot be deceived-impossible to be deceived-yet "born again" believers-sealed with the Holy Spirit can be deceived?
Someone else even went so far, yesterday, to say it is the elect, in this passage, which can fall away.
I am familiar with the conditional clauses-

 

[Lizbeth]

The KJV Bible Commentary - For centuries Hebrews 6 has been a battleground. That fact alone ought to warn us to study carefully and to conclude slowly concerning the teaching of these verses. The crux of the issue is whether or not a born-again believer can lose his salvation. Though many interpretations of these verses have been proposed, four common, contemporary views merit listing. (Dobson, E G, Charles Feinberg, E Hindson, Woodrow Kroll, H L. Wilmington: KJV Bible Commentary: Nelson)

J Vernon McGee - As we study this section, we are immediately confronted with the amazing fact that generally commentators have avoided this chapter. Even such a man as Dr. G. Campbell Morgan, the prince of expositors, has completely bypassed it in his book on Hebrews. However, when we do come upon the interpretations available and summarize each, we can well understand why men have chosen to remain clear of this scene of confusion because we can get many interpretations. (McGee, J V: Thru the Bible Commentary: Thomas Nelson)

Dr Charles Ryrie summarizes the interpretative views of Hebrews 6:4-6 writing that…

This much-debated passage has been understood in several ways.

(1) Arminians hold that the people described in these verses are Christians who actually lose their salvation. If this be so, notice that the passage also teaches that it is impossible to be saved a second time.

(2) Some hold that the passage refers not to genuine believers but to those who only profess to be believers. Thus the phrases in verses 4-5 are understood to refer to experiences short of salvation (cf. v. 9). The "falling away" is from the knowledge of the truth, not personal possession of it.

(3) Others understand the passage to be a warning to genuine believers to urge them on in Christian growth and maturity. To "fall away" is impossible (since, according to this view, true believers are eternally secure), but the phrase is placed in the sentence to strengthen the warning. It is similar to saying something like this to a class of students: "It is impossible for a student, once enrolled in this course, if he turns the clock back which cannot be done, to start the course over. Therefore, let all students go on to deeper knowledge." In this view the phrases in verses 4-5 are understood to refer to the conversion experience. (The Ryrie Study Bible: New American Standard Translation: 1995. Moody Publishers)

You want to hear Calvin's interpretation of this portion in Hebrews 6?-so which is it @Lizbeth?

I don't see how anyone can only be partially reconciled to God....either you are or you're not. Either repented and turned to God or not. I don't know what conclusions gifted men and scholars have concluded, I'm not educated in that regard, but I just try to hear what the Spirit is saying in the scrips. I know it's not an easy subject to grasp, but we need ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes indeed my brother-and to add icing to the cake-Hebrews 6 is now brought up-the much debated, controversial Hebrews 6--

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

As touching those who were once enlightened (tous hapax phōtisthentas). First aorist passive articular participle (the once for all enlightened) of photizō, old and common verb (from phōs) as in Luk_11:36. The metaphorical sense here (cf. Joh_1:9; Eph_1:18; Heb_10:32) occurs in Polybius and Epictetus. The accusative case is due to anakainizein in Heb_6:6. Hapax here is “once for all,” not once upon a time (pote) and occurs again (Heb_9:7, Heb_9:26, Heb_9:27, Heb_9:28; Heb_12:26, Heb_12:27).
Tasted of the heavenly gift (geusamenous tēs dōreas tēs epouraniou). First aorist middle participle of geuō, old verb once with accusative (Heb_6:5, kalon rēma, dunameis), usually with genitive (Heb_2:9) as here.
Partakers of the Holy Ghost (metochous pneumatos hagiou). See Heb_3:14 for metochoi. These are all given as actual spiritual experiences.
And then fell away (kai parapesontas). No “then” here, though the second aorist (effective) active participle of parapiptō, old verb to fall beside (aside), means that. Only here in N.T. In Gal_5:4 we have tēs charitos exepesate (ye fell out of grace, to law, Paul means).


--does it mean genuine, born again believers-or having an outward show of godliness-but inwardly full of dead bones?

Brother....if any would hypothetically be "crucifying to themselves Christ afresh" they had to have been born again believers to start with, since Christ was once crucified to them. Some of this is just common sense if we take a step back and look at it with fresh eyes.

 

[Enoch111]

I think it must be speaking of the seed of the word having died in them....the Holy Spirit departing them entirely.

Note. The Holy Spirit does NOT depart from those who were justified by grace through faith and received THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit.

In the context of Hebrews the "falling away" is the reverting back of Hebrew Christians to the Law of Moses and trying to maintain salvation through the works of the Law. Galatians also provides insight into this. This goes all the way back to chapter 3: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God... For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end...

Here "the living God" is Christ as is obvious from everything that is being said. Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus...

In any event Paul addresses these Christians as "holy brethren" and later on assures them that their salvation is secure.

It is difficult for Gentile Christians to understand the struggle of Hebrew Christians after they were saved. They had been taught all along to obey the Law of Moses. But after they received the gift of the Holy Spirit they could not understand that they were free from bondage to the Law. Even Peter had a very hard time associating with Gentiles since he was a strict Jew and Gentiles were "dogs". It is Paul who was able to clarify the difference and teach the Jews that they were no longer under the Old Covenant and that Jews and Gentiles were all one in Christ.