The Coming Rapture

[rebuilder 454]

Not really, no, they will depart. Jesus will say, in the final Judgment, "Depart from Me, for I never knew you." Right, they won't be "taken" in the sense that... rapturists... suppose the church to be taken or removed.


That's all you, Rebuilder. That's one of my points. Rapturists reframe... well, not necessarily the "setting," as that's unmistakable, but rather the context of what Jesus is saying there.


Not about the setting; that's completely missing the impact of what He's saying. The context is made clear in verses 38-39, "...as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." It's the same way, the same context in Luke's account, where he quotes Jesus as saying, "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all." On top of that, Luke quotes Jesus as also likening it to the days of Lot; "...they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all ~ so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed." So, not only do you miss the whole thrust of the passage, focusing on the setting instead of the context, you apply a completely different context to the Matthew 24 passage as is so clear in Luke 17. Again, it's the wicked who will be destroyed ~ in the sense of being ruined ~ and will subsequently depart, be sent away as a result of the final Judgment.

No, in my "model," I have all being judged according to what they have done, and believers judged righteous...because they are in Christ and have been resurrected to eternal life... and the unrepentant being sent away, because they are not in Christ and have been resurrected to judgment.


Certainly.


I honestly don't even know what you mean by this.


I wish you would... <smile>


So I agree with this, Rebuilder, but the Noah's flood and the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah were God's judgments... and a foreshadowing of the final Judgment that will take place when Jesus returns. So, yes, Jesus is coming before the final Judgment. He's coming to execute it.


Pre-Judgment. He's coming in judgment.


Well, some portion will be taken in the final Judgment, yes, absolutely. Let me submit this, Rebuilder. In Matthew 24, Jesus actually says of Noah's day and the flood, "in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away..." Who do you understand that 'they' and 'them' to refer to? Again, "they were unaware... the flood came and swept them all away..."; "they were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all" (Matthew 24:39; Luke 17:27) And then Jesus says, "so will be the coming of the Son of Man." So the question I submit to you is, who is actually taken? If you say, "believers," as it seems you have it, I submit to you that you have it exactly backwards.


Disagree; He's not speaking of actual proportions. More on that directly below...


Again, we don't know the actual proportion. Because the ones preserved to eternal life, God's elect, are repeatedly referred to as the remnant God has preserved for Himself, I am inclined to believe that the number of folks who do inherit eternal life is far less than those who do not. Jesus is certainly distinguishing one from the other, so one group from the other, but actual proportions are not in view.

But yes, right, they will think there is nothing coming, nothing to worry about, and keep right on dwelling in sin. He is speaking of unbelievers, Rebuilder. And in the final Judgment, they "will not stand in the Judgment " (Psalm 1), meaning, ultimately, they will be the ones relegated to the second death; they will go away into eternal judgment. These are the ones who will "come out of their tombs... to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29). These are the ones who will be on Jesus's left at the final Judgment, to whom He will say, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... and these will go away into eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:41 and following). These are the ones whose "name (will) not (be) found written in the book of life" and therefore will be "thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15) ~ submersed in God's final Judgment ~ for eternity.

So regarding who is "taken," Rebuilder... I submit to you that you should... reevaluate <smile>... who is actually "taken." And, in what sense, and why.

Grace and peace to you.

QUOTE
"Again, we don't know the actual proportion"

A quick read destroys that ignorance
matt24
37 For [ab]the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not [ac]understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one [ad]will be taken and one [ae]will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the [af]mill; one [ag]will be taken and one [ah]will be left.

(Half taken)

Luke 17
. 26 And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so will it also be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 people were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, and they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, and they were building; 29 but on the day that Lot left Sodom, it rained fire and rimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, the one who will be on the ousetop, with his goods in the house, must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one in the field must not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever strives to will lose it, and whoever loses his life will keep it. 34 I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”]
(Half taken)



Matt 25
10 But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the groom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11 Yet later, the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Be on the alert then, because you do not know the day nor the hour
(Half taken to heaven)

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh
10 believers. Half taken to heaven.

Oh, and the setting is the same in all 3.
(Exactly opposite your model)

Maybe a math teacher meme with half equals 50 %?
Remember memes trump the bible in your methods

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes. We disagree. It's okay. <smile>


I didn't say or insinuate that.


Again, in no way did He do that. What you are attributing to me as me having said or insinuated is not what I have said or insinuated at all.


Well, if you mean "in bed with" in the sense of in the world with at the time of Jesus's return, then yes. But I would hope no one believes otherwise...


I have clearly said, many times, no actual proportions are in view, and I have clearly said, many times, that the Israel of God is a minority ~ and maybe a very small minority ~ in proportion to "satanists."

Yet still, the number of the saved will be an innumerable multitude. As the stars of the heavens, the grains of sand on the seashore, as it were.


It might be, I guess, but I was never there. <smile>


God's Word endures forever.


Ugh. I mean, "Amils" surely believe in these things, too, but don't take it in the same wooden sense as you or other like-minded folks. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Quote
"I didn't say or insinuate that"
Your model has the wicked taken ( which is a stretch to the breaking point)
...and Jesus telling the wicked to watch and be ready ?

Or maybe you can make a point that the ones staying are told to watch ?
Watch for another group to be ready?
Watch because they are not taken anywhere?
Watch to be ready to watch some heathens raptured?

What exactly are those staying behind told to watch for since they are just left sleeping in a bed??????

 

[PinSeeker]

QUOTE
"Again, we don't know the actual proportion"

A quick read destroys that ignorance
matt24

Quibbling over this is unnecessary, but reading what Jesus says in Matthew 24 woodenly as a 1:1 ratio is very incorrect. Jesus was certainly stating the difference between one and another, but no actual proportions are in view. You will remember, I'm sure, something that has come up repeatedly in our discussion... another quote of Jesus's in Matthew 22, where He says, "many are called, but few are chosen."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Your model has the wicked taken...

"Taken" in the sense of being... taken from here... departing, and not entering into the New Heaven and New Earth with God's elect, the folks on Jesus's right in the final Judgment.

...and Jesus telling the wicked to watch and be ready ?

As I said, no. You keep misstating what I have been saying, making it out to be opposite what it has always been and is.

Or maybe you can make a point that the ones staying are told to watch ?
Watch for another group to be ready?
Watch because they are not taken anywhere?
Watch to be ready to watch some heathens raptured?

LOL!

What exactly are those staying behind told to watch for since they are just left sleeping in a bed??????

<eye roll> All these questions are ridiculous.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not really, no, they will depart. Jesus will say, in the final Judgment, "Depart from Me, for I never knew you." Right, they won't be "taken" in the sense that... rapturists... suppose the church to be taken or removed.


That's all you, Rebuilder. That's one of my points. Rapturists reframe... well, not necessarily the "setting," as that's unmistakable, but rather the context of what Jesus is saying there.


Not about the setting; that's completely missing the impact of what He's saying. The context is made clear in verses 38-39, "...as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." It's the same way, the same context in Luke's account, where he quotes Jesus as saying, "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all." On top of that, Luke quotes Jesus as also likening it to the days of Lot; "...they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all ~ so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed." So, not only do you miss the whole thrust of the passage, focusing on the setting instead of the context, you apply a completely different context to the Matthew 24 passage as is so clear in Luke 17. Again, it's the wicked who will be destroyed ~ in the sense of being ruined ~ and will subsequently depart, be sent away as a result of the final Judgment.

No, in my "model," I have all being judged according to what they have done, and believers judged righteous...because they are in Christ and have been resurrected to eternal life... and the unrepentant being sent away, because they are not in Christ and have been resurrected to judgment.


Certainly.


I honestly don't even know what you mean by this.


I wish you would... <smile>


So I agree with this, Rebuilder, but the Noah's flood and the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah were God's judgments... and a foreshadowing of the final Judgment that will take place when Jesus returns. So, yes, Jesus is coming before the final Judgment. He's coming to execute it.


Pre-Judgment. He's coming in judgment.


Well, some portion will be taken in the final Judgment, yes, absolutely. Let me submit this, Rebuilder. In Matthew 24, Jesus actually says of Noah's day and the flood, "in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away..." Who do you understand that 'they' and 'them' to refer to? Again, "they were unaware... the flood came and swept them all away..."; "they were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all" (Matthew 24:39; Luke 17:27) And then Jesus says, "so will be the coming of the Son of Man." So the question I submit to you is, who is actually taken? If you say, "believers," as it seems you have it, I submit to you that you have it exactly backwards.


Disagree; He's not speaking of actual proportions. More on that directly below...


Again, we don't know the actual proportion. Because the ones preserved to eternal life, God's elect, are repeatedly referred to as the remnant God has preserved for Himself, I am inclined to believe that the number of folks who do inherit eternal life is far less than those who do not. Jesus is certainly distinguishing one from the other, so one group from the other, but actual proportions are not in view.

But yes, right, they will think there is nothing coming, nothing to worry about, and keep right on dwelling in sin. He is speaking of unbelievers, Rebuilder. And in the final Judgment, they "will not stand in the Judgment " (Psalm 1), meaning, ultimately, they will be the ones relegated to the second death; they will go away into eternal judgment. These are the ones who will "come out of their tombs... to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29). These are the ones who will be on Jesus's left at the final Judgment, to whom He will say, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... and these will go away into eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:41 and following). These are the ones whose "name (will) not (be) found written in the book of life" and therefore will be "thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15) ~ submersed in God's final Judgment ~ for eternity.

So regarding who is "taken," Rebuilder... I submit to you that you should... reevaluate <smile>... who is actually "taken." And, in what sense, and why.

Grace and peace to you.

QUOTE
"Again, we don't know the actual proportion"

A quick read destroys that ignorance
Matt 24 half taken
Matt 25 half taken
Luke 17 half taken

 

[rebuilder 454]

"Taken" in the sense of being... taken from here... departing, and not entering into the New Heaven and New Earth with God's elect, the folks on Jesus's right in the final Judgment.


As I said, no. You keep misstating what I have been saying, making it out to be opposite what it has always been and is.


LOL!


<eye roll> All these questions are ridiculous.

Grace and peace to you.

Half the world is believers left behind.?
drink up a few more martinis
That should help your model work

 

[rebuilder 454]

Quibbling over this is unnecessary, but reading what Jesus says in Matthew 24 woodenly as a 1:1 ratio is very incorrect. Jesus was certainly stating the difference between one and another, but no actual proportions are in view. You will remember, I'm sure, something that has come up repeatedly in our discussion... another quote of Jesus's in Matthew 22, where He says, "many are called, but few are chosen."

Grace and peace to you.

Jesus was quibbling when he put up 3 billboards in your front yard that half are taken, and half left behind ?

3 separate verses saying half of a group are taken.
Your model says the opposite.

Maybe a drunken Sean meme can override scripture for you.
I just shake my head at your games.

 

[PinSeeker]

QUOTE
"Again, we don't know the actual proportion"

A quick read destroys that ignorance
Matt 24 half taken
Matt 25 half taken
Luke 17 half taken

In your opinion, I get it. And I'm perfectly fine with you saying that a 1:1 ratio is not what's in view in Jesus's comments is my opinion, but it is what it is. Yet again, as Jesus says, "Many are called, but few are chosen." So, I'm kind of throwing your question right back at you in a way: Are 'many' and 'few' the exact same number of folks, so therefore exactly half and half? I say no...

Half the world is believers left behind.?

No one is "left behind" in the sense that folks like you believe. Resulting from the final Judgment, some stay ~ and enter into the promised rest, the New Heaven and New Earth ~ and others depart ~ go away into eternal judgment ~ outer darkness, the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth... the lake of fire, which is the second death.

What I have said doesn't take much brain power to comprehend, so you're continued bungling of it must be on purpose. Which makes you, 454, a very, very poor conversationalist, to put it mildly.

drink up a few more martinis...

I prefer whiskey, actually. And Mezcal margueritas. <smile>

That should help your model work

If you'd get my "model" right, that would help. What is your IQ, approximately? Like 25 or so? <smile>

Jesus was quibbling when he put up 3 billboards in your front yard that half are taken, and half left behind ?

3 separate verses saying half of a group are taken.

Nope. Only to those of wooden heads, I guess... <smile>

Maybe a drunken Sean meme can override scripture for you.

Doesn't take much at all to override your understanding of certain passages of scripture. That has been abundantly clear here.

I just shake my head at your games.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

QUOTE
"Again, we don't know the actual proportion"

A quick read destroys that ignorance
matt24
37 For [ab]the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not [ac]understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one [ad]will be taken and one [ae]will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the [af]mill; one [ag]will be taken and one [ah]will be left.

(Half taken)

Luke 17
. 26 And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so will it also be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 people were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, and they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, and they were building; 29 but on the day that Lot left Sodom, it rained fire and rimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, the one who will be on the ousetop, with his goods in the house, must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one in the field must not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever strives to will lose it, and whoever loses his life will keep it. 34 I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”]
(Half taken)



Matt 25
10 But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the groom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11 Yet later, the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Be on the alert then, because you do not know the day nor the hour
(Half taken to heaven)

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh
10 believers. Half taken to heaven.

Oh, and the setting is the same in all 3.
(Exactly opposite your model)

Maybe a math teacher meme with half equals 50 %?
Remember memes trump the bible in your methods

LOL. Your hyper-literalism is something else.

Jesus was not saying that literally half of the people in the world will be taken and half left behind when He comes. No, He was simply illustrating that there are two different things that will happen to people when He comes. Each person will either be taken or left. In no way, shape or form was He saying that exactly half would be taken and half left (goodness gracious).

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Let's say Jesus came today. There's about 8 billion people in the world. So, you're saying that if He came today He'd find about 4 billion people with faith on the earth and they would be taken up to meet Him in the air? Why did Jesus question if He would find faith on the earth if there will be billions of people with faith on the earth when He comes? Do you think Jesus was mistaken to think He would not find much faith on the earth when He comes? He did teach that many would turn away from the faith before He comes (Matthew 24:10), which Paul also taught (2 Thess 2:3), so it's no wonder why He asked that question.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Quibbling over this is unnecessary, but reading what Jesus says in Matthew 24 woodenly as a 1:1 ratio is very incorrect. Jesus was certainly stating the difference between one and another, but no actual proportions are in view. You will remember, I'm sure, something that has come up repeatedly in our discussion... another quote of Jesus's in Matthew 22, where He says, "many are called, but few are chosen."

Grace and peace to you.

Many. Few. What's the difference? LOL.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What exactly are those staying behind told to watch for since they are just left sleeping in a bed??????

To watch that they get enough sleep?

 

[The Light]

This is ridiculous. Only those who believe in Jesus are in the one fold. You say the Jews are yet blinded for the most part. That means there are at least some believing Jews, right? Christ's sheep are ONLY those who believe, so believing Jews are one of the folds and believing Gentiles are the other fold and they are brought together as one fold just like is taught throughout New Testament scripture.

Why do you keep dancing around the facts? It's because you do not understand that there are two raptures as there are two folds.

When He COMES for the Church, that is the first fold as the Church are believers that are known by God and we know Him. It is the first harvest.

Other sheep not of this fold of believers, or this harvest, will become believers, as they have their blindness removed, and He must also bring them. There are 144,000 first fruits of the second fold. Each man in his order. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming. He comes twice, once for His Church before the great t

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Jesus brought Jew and Gentile believers together as "one new man", "one body" and "one fold".

The has absolutely nothing to do with the two folds that are two harvests. You always want to jump to that one fold without recognizing that there are two folds or two harvests that are brought into one fold at the gathering from heaven and earth. The one fold is the great multitude that is in heaven for the marriage supper as the wrath of God is being poured out on the earth.

 

[The Light]

That's what I'm saying to you. In addition to what I said about God's Israel.

And yet your opinion does not have any scriptural support. The first fold are the Gentiles as blindness is not removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.........Romans 11

Additionally, the Jews went to Baalpeor and it was determined that the fathers of the Jews would not be the first fruits of the fig tree AT HER FIRST TIME. Hebrews 9:10

All of those who are Christ's... who have been born again of the Holy Spirit... saved by grace through faith... for all time up to now (see Hebrews 11; "by faith...") ...are His sheep and hear His voice.

The fact that part of Israel is in blindness until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, blows a hole in your argument. Additionally there are two folds which are two harvests that you seem unable to find in scripture.

Not completely, no. Both will be brought to completion at the same time. God is building His Israel as we speak. And it may be very close to completion.

You always want to jump to the one fold without recognizing the events that take place when each fold occurs. There are two harvests, two raptures.......two folds. The first fold happens before the great tribulation in an hour that your think not and the second fold happens at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days.

It doesn't matter if you understand this. Those are the scriptural facts.

No "rapture." The return of Christ will certainly be a rapturous event, very much in the sense of what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; He will forcefully, irresistibly, and uncontestedly seize what is His once and for all.

They that are Christs at His coming will be the first fold. Then other sheep not of this fold, them must He also bring.........TO HIS FATHERS HOUSE.

The two folds become one fold at the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal. All go to heaven for the marriage supper as the great multitude.

The first fold consists of ethnic Jewish believers. The second consists of all Gentile believers. And they ~ we ~ are all one in Christ. But 'first' and 'second' is really a misnomer of sorts, except in the true sense of "to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles."

Incorrect. The folds do not occur until Jesus comes for a harvest. He comes first for His bride the Church in an hour that you think not. He returns for the Chosen bride at the 6th seal which is the gathering from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper as one fold............the great multitude.

Actually, though, in the sense of our having been born again of the Spirit, we could say and would be correct in doing so that there have been a multitude of raptures up to this point so far; our hearts have been raptured by God, in which sense we are in this world but not of it.

This is not a harvest or fold or rapture.

In a manner of speaking, I guess... harvests of two folds. So really, it can be understood as two harvests, but it can also be understood as one harvest with two parts. Maybe we agree on that; it is what it is.

Nope sorry. The fig tree has TWO HARVESTS.

Additionally, there is a grain harvest which complete at the end of summer and there is a fruit harvest which occurs in the fall.

Disagree. It's not an invalid understanding of what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26, and neither is mine. One is inaccurate, though, and... well, we disagree on which it is.

Paul says in Romans not to be ignorant of the fact that blindness is not removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. FACT.......not opinion.

No such thing. We are in the period of tribulation now, which again is synonymous with the millennium, the "thousand years," of Revelation 20. And there will be a great ramping up, in the sense of a final, great conflict near the end... which, we may be very near that point now.

Again, lack of understanding. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which does not begin until the abomination of desolation is set up. FACT......not opinion.

You have lots of opinions that you are unable to provide scriptural support for. It's time to quit believing what you have been taught and get in the scripture and learn.

Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace to you........................

 

[The Light]

But, in John 10 Jesus was referring to His fold of Israelite believers as the first fold because He was sent to save them first with the salvation of the Gentiles coming later. There were no Gentiles in the first fold when Jesus was speaking in John 10.

You are incorrect because no harvest has happened. A fold being described is believers. That is the Church. But the Lord Himself has not come for His bride, therefore the first fold has not been brought to the Fathers house.

Matthew 15:21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

There's the first fold. Those of the lost sheep of Israel who believed and became His sheep are of the first fold because He was sent only to them in the sense that the gospel of salvation was to come first to the Jews and then later His apostles would bring the gospel to the Gentiles and those Gentiles who believed were His other fold that He joined together in one fold.

Has a harvest occurred? No. That will not happen until the rapture of the Church before the great tribulation. As for the lost sheep of Israel...................

Matthew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And that lines up with this:

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

He made both Jew and Gentile believers one. One new man. One body. One fold.

You are always jumping to the one fold without recognizing when each separate fold occurs. The fold of sheep that are known by the Lord and we know Him is the Church. When He comes for His Church before the great tribulation that will be the first fold that He takes to His Fathers house. But other sheep not of this fold, them must He also bring. That is the Chosen bride. The Chosen bride will not be taken to His fathers house until after the great tribulation. This is the second fold. When He comes for the second fold, He will bring the first fold with Him as this is the gathering from heaven and earth, when both folds are brought into one fold as the great multitude. All return to heaven for the marriage supper which takes place during the wrath of God.

Those in the nation of Israel, the woman, that has fled to a place of protection will remain on the earth during the wrath of God.

In your heart, you know I am correct.

 

[The Light]

That's true of all Jesus's sheep.

And yet the Church is known by Him, and we hear His voice. Blindness will not be removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Your opinions have no scriptural support, so why do you believe what you have been taught?

No one is denying anything, The Light. Just because someone proclaims something a fact does not make it so. So, yes, I'm very much disagreeing with your understanding of certain scriptural things, for sure.

And you can provide no scriptural support for the opinions that you have been taught. All the verses you have been taught about the rapture occurring after the man of sin is revealed, goes up in smoke when we recognize there are two folds.....two raptures.

Blindness cannot be removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in..........FACT.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

In your opinion. And you may certainly call this my opinion as well, but there is absolutely no scriptural support for any kind of "rapture," any kind of removal of any number of folks from earth and then a subsequently bringing back of those folks.

Matthew 24 and Rev 6 prove that Jesus comes for a harvest sending angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the sixth seal.

Revelation 7 shows the great multitude in heaven some of who came out of great tribulation.

Revelation 19 shows that the great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper during the wrath of God.

Revelation 19 also shows the armies of heaven follow Jesus to Armageddon which is the end of wrath.

FACTS.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Ah, dispensationalism... Scripture is covenantal in structure, The Light, not dispensational.

Two fold. The first fold is the Church. After the Lord comes for His bride they are taken to heaven and God turns His attention to the 12 tribes across the earth. Then there are 144,000 first fruits of the second fold. Then there is a harvest of the second fold. These are dispensations.

After the two folds are brought into one fold as the great multitude in heaven, then we have the Israel of God.

You skip all the details of things that happen and jump to the end.......one fold.

And you can offer no scripture to support what you have been taught.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

And yet your opinion does not have any scriptural support.

And I say that's the case with yours. It's called "disagreement."

The first fold are the Gentiles as blindness is not removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.........Romans 11

In Romans 11:25-26 ~ as you know, I'm sure ~ Paul says (and I quote), "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." So:

A. Yes, because of that word 'until,' that could be understood to mean that the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in completely, and until that completely happens, none of the hardness that is now on Israel is removed at all.

But...

B. It could also be understood to mean that the two happen concurrently, that the partial hardening is being removed now but will not be completely removed until the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in completely also.

Both A and B are valid understandings of Paul's words. But, yes, one is the case and the other is not, So, which one is correct, right? Well, there are differing opinions on that. But really, The Light, the only really important thing is ~ regardless whether subsequent order or concurrency is correct ~ "in this way all Israel will be saved." That's the important thing. God will do it. So for you and me to go back and forth on this is... not important. It's not important for you or I to be correct, and it's perfectly fine for us to disagree on this, because the disagreement really has no consequence. God will do it. He's going to save all of His Israel. All His promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

Additionally, the Jews went to Baalpeor and it was determined that the fathers of the Jews would not be the first fruits of the fig tree AT HER FIRST TIME. Hebrews 9:10

Yes, Hosea, not Hebrews. Just a typo, I'm sure; no worries.

It's interesting that you talk about the "fathers of the Jews," here. You might remember what the writer of Hebrews says at the outset of this letter, in Hebrews 1:1-2, namely that "(l)ong ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son." You will notice my emphasis on the collective pronouns 'our' and 'us.' So the writer of Hebrews ~ and really ultimately God, as it's His Word ~ is addressing all of us believers, regardless of ethnicity. We are all one in Christ Jesus, as Paul says several times over.

The fact that part of Israel is in blindness until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in....

May or may not be a fact. See above. I believe it not to be a fact,

...there are two folds which are two harvests that you seem unable to find in scripture.

<sigh> No, I agree with you about the "two folds," as should have been obvious by now, but I disagree about the two harvests... in the wooden sense that one harvest (the second), occurs completely after, is completely subsequent to, the first, as you hold. And very simply, I would just point to the fact that there is a goodly number of ethnic Jews out there today who believe in Jesus, recognize Him as Messiah, as the Son of God, and rest in faith upon Him alone for their salvation, just as you and I do. We call them Messianic Jews, but they are as much our brothers and sisters in Christ as any other believer.

There are two harvests, two raptures.......two folds.

I respect your... stridency... but respectfully disagree, and could offer much from God's Word in rebuttal to this but believe the following to be sufficient (although what I said above about Hebrews 1:1-2 applies, also) ~ and @Spiritual Israelite quoted this above, too:

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:11-22)​

So the two have been made one, The Light. One. We are all one in Christ Jesus, as Paul says in Romans 12:5, Galatians 3:28, and Colossians 3:15. This is the one fold; the two have been made one. So, like Paul says... going back to Romans 11:26, all of Israel ~ all those whom God has called, not only from the Jews but also the Gentiles, as he has said in Romans 9:24 ~ all of Israel will be saved. I say you are maintaining a hard division on something God has done away with. This is the one harvest of His eternal household, Israel. As Jesus says in explaining the parable of the weeds in Matthew 13:37-43:

"The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."​

The first fold happens before the great tribulation...

After. But, it will happen, and we agree on that, which should be good enough for both of us, really.

Paul says in Romans not to be ignorant of the fact that blindness is not removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. FACT.......not opinion.

Well, right, but see above.

Again, lack of understanding.

Again, this is your opinion only. I believe the lack of understanding to be yours, but really, it's okay. It's okay. <smile>

The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which does not begin until the abomination of desolation is set up. FACT......not opinion.

Sure, absolutely, but... See above.

You have lots of opinions that you are unable to provide scriptural support for...

In your opinion. I've offered many throughout this conversation, and spoken to your citations also, so to even say this is... well, quite ridiculous. And in that vein, without going into detail (except for the following), I would speak to the very same scriptures you cite above, particularly Matthew 24 (as I have) and all the passages in Revelation.

Regarding Revelation in particular, I would just briefly say that to sequence all of Revelation chapter by chapter ~ and possibly... not sure if you do this with it or not, but I think so... make it out to be all in the future is a terrible misunderstanding of the visions given to John in that great prophecy. But that is in keeping with how you see these "two separate, one-completely-subsequent-to-the-other harvests," which is not the case. Consistency is not your problem... <smile> But no, what John sees, seven times over, is the unfolding of history up to Christ's return, with each vision progressively focusing more and more on the final outcome, Christ's return itself.

The only thing that either of us can really say about each other is, "you use the scriptural support you use wrongly."

It's time to quit believing what you have been taught and get in the scripture and learn.

Back atcha. Every word here, right back atcha. But... it's okay. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...no harvest has happened.

In the same sense that you and I both have been saved ~ we have been born again of the Spirit ~ and are being saved ~ being kept in faith in the power of the Spirit and will not be lost but raised up on the last day (John 6:39), so is the harvest happening now ~ people are coming to Christ, one by one, over the course of this age ~ and will happen at the end of the age. This is the simultaneous "now and not yet" of the Gospel.

Those in the nation of Israel, the woman, that has fled to a place of protection will remain on the earth during the wrath of God.

Our tribulation and the wrath of God are two completely different things, The Light. Through tribulation, as James says, our faith is being tested, so we can "count it all joy when (we) meet trials of various kinds, for (we) know that the testing of (our) faith produces steadfastness..." which will "have its full effect, that (we) may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:2-4). The wrath of God we have fled and have our rest in Christ. And this wrath of God will play out in the final Judgment, which will be exacted upon... unbelievers... in the form of the second death ("...the wages of sin is death" ~ Romans 6:23a, "...those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" ~ John 5:29), where they will dwell under/in this judgment of God for eternity. <shudder> As Paul say, "Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), and "God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..." (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Grace and peace to you, The Light.