The Coming Rapture

[ewq1938]

Let’s speak plainly: the “rapture” you’re referring to — a secret snatching away of the Church before tribulation — is not found in Scripture. It’s a modern invention, born in the 1830s

It's far older than that.

 

[PinSeeker]

In no way are the "wicked taken"

Not really, no, they will depart. Jesus will say, in the final Judgment, "Depart from Me, for I never knew you." Right, they won't be "taken" in the sense that... rapturists... suppose the church to be taken or removed.

You do realize you completely reframed the setting?

That's all you, Rebuilder. That's one of my points. Rapturists reframe... well, not necessarily the "setting," as that's unmistakable, but rather the context of what Jesus is saying there.

Ask yourself why Jesus described the setting.

Not about the setting; that's completely missing the impact of what He's saying. The context is made clear in verses 38-39, "...as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." It's the same way, the same context in Luke's account, where he quotes Jesus as saying, "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all." On top of that, Luke quotes Jesus as also likening it to the days of Lot; "...they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all ~ so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed." So, not only do you miss the whole thrust of the passage, focusing on the setting instead of the context, you apply a completely different context to the Matthew 24 passage as is so clear in Luke 17. Again, it's the wicked who will be destroyed ~ in the sense of being ruined ~ and will subsequently depart, be sent away as a result of the final Judgment.

It gets worse, because Jesus is saying in both Lot and Noah that He is returning in normal life and PRE TRIB.

IN your model, you have one believer in a bed with a Satanist . The Satanist is taken(SMH), and the believer is left behind AT THE COMING OF THE LORD.

No, in my "model," I have all being judged according to what they have done, and believers judged righteous...because they are in Christ and have been resurrected to eternal life... and the unrepentant being sent away, because they are not in Christ and have been resurrected to judgment.

Then Jesus tells us to watch and be ready.

Certainly.

In your model ,you have believers postrib,

I honestly don't even know what you mean by this.

Let's look at it BIBLICALLY.

I wish you would... <smile>

Jesus tells us he is coming pre flood. Pre Sodom burned.

So I agree with this, Rebuilder, but the Noah's flood and the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah were God's judgments... and a foreshadowing of the final Judgment that will take place when Jesus returns. So, yes, Jesus is coming before the final Judgment. He's coming to execute it.

Pre trib ( as He put it) normal life.

Pre-Judgment. He's coming in judgment.

He says out of a group half are taken.

Well, some portion will be taken in the final Judgment, yes, absolutely. Let me submit this, Rebuilder. In Matthew 24, Jesus actually says of Noah's day and the flood, "in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away..." Who do you understand that 'they' and 'them' to refer to? Again, "they were unaware... the flood came and swept them all away..."; "they were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all" (Matthew 24:39; Luke 17:27) And then Jesus says, "so will be the coming of the Son of Man." So the question I submit to you is, who is actually taken? If you say, "believers," as it seems you have it, I submit to you that you have it exactly backwards.

Jesus declares that in the group of "half vs half"...

Disagree; He's not speaking of actual proportions. More on that directly below...

that they are together in activities, living together, and operating and moving, even sleeping together. That is the group Jesus describes. Jesus says that of that group that works, lives, and sleeps together, half are taken...

Again, we don't know the actual proportion. Because the ones preserved to eternal life, God's elect, are repeatedly referred to as the remnant God has preserved for Himself, I am inclined to believe that the number of folks who do inherit eternal life is far less than those who do not. Jesus is certainly distinguishing one from the other, so one group from the other, but actual proportions are not in view.

But yes, right, they will think there is nothing coming, nothing to worry about, and keep right on dwelling in sin. He is speaking of unbelievers, Rebuilder. And in the final Judgment, they "will not stand in the Judgment " (Psalm 1), meaning, ultimately, they will be the ones relegated to the second death; they will go away into eternal judgment. These are the ones who will "come out of their tombs... to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29). These are the ones who will be on Jesus's left at the final Judgment, to whom He will say, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... and these will go away into eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:41 and following). These are the ones whose "name (will) not (be) found written in the book of life" and therefore will be "thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15) ~ submersed in God's final Judgment ~ for eternity.

So regarding who is "taken," Rebuilder... I submit to you that you should... reevaluate <smile>... who is actually "taken." And, in what sense, and why.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

I mean, tribulation can be wrath, but in terms of what the tribulation represents when we talk about pre-trib and post-trib, it does not mean wrath. I know that you know this, but I'm just clarifying things for whoever else might be reading our discussion.

Agreed. The great tribulation which is the 5th seal is not the wrath of God which is the seventh seal.

So, anyway, why don't you understand that Jesus is talking about escaping His wrath in Luke 21:36 instead of escaping tribulation?

The Church will be in heaven before these things come to pass. It is the Jews that will see all these things come to pass. The Church can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Look at what Paul wrote here...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Would you agree that Paul is talking here about God's wrath causing "sudden destruction" upon those who are in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape"? If so, why would you not understand that it is His wrath that we should pray to be worthy to escape?

The Church will escape ALL THESE THINGS that come to pass. The Jews will see all these things come to pass. However, they can also escape the wrath that is to come as there are two harvests. The 12 tribes across the earth which are the seed of the woman Israel will be raptured from the earth at the 6th seal. Those in the nation of Israel will remain on the earth and flee to their protected place during the 7th seal wrath of God.

The snare will come on all of them that dwell on the face of the earth. The Church will already be in heaven and will not be on the face of the earth when that snare comes. However, it would not be wise to not be ready when the bridegroom comes. The door will be shut

Luke 21
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

You are taking Luke 21:36 completely out of context. Look at it closely and also take 1 Thess 5:2-3 into consideration when reading it.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

What things is Jesus saying we should pray to be worthy to escape? Not things that He said we would see to tell us that His coming is near. We won't escape those things because Jesus said we will see them and they would tell us His coming is near. He's talking about things that relate to coming upon "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". Things related to when "heaven and earth shall pass away" on "that day".

It is not the Church that sees these things. The Church will already be in heaven as we can escape all these things and stand before the Son of man.

Souls. Jesus has not yet descended from heaven at that point, but is about to. He descends from heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ (1 Thess 4:14). In Revelation 6:9-11 it shows the souls in heaven as being conscious, so why can't they celebrate when they find out it's time for Jesus to come and avenge their blood?

Jesus comes for the Church before the great tribulation. The dead in Christ will already be in heaven. The souls under the altar are souls that are killed during the great tribulation. They remain under the altar until all those killed during the great tribulation are killed. These days are cut short or there would be no flesh alive that is raptured at the 6th seal. All that would be raptured would come from the grave.

I say the same to you. We've been over this multiple times already. You aren't saying anything new that I haven't already refuted before.

It puzzles me that you see no raptures until the 7th vial. The Church is raptured before the seals are opened. The twelve tribes across the earth are raptured at the 6th seal. That is when MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be raised. Why do you not see that the fig tree has two harvests? Why do you not see there are two folds?

I said I meant the 7th seal! Don't be a jerk. It was a typo. You don't need to hold it over me just because I made one typo.

Sorry I already made the post before you made the correcting post.

I'm glad that you brought up some things in Luke 21. I learned something that was right in front of my face and is so obvious that I don't see how I missed it. Thanks.

 

[Keraz]

The Church will escape ALL THESE THINGS that come to pass.

"escape' is not by rapture/removal; nowhere is that kind of escape Prophesied to happen.
But many many Prophesies tell us how the Lord will protect His own during the disaster of Luke 21:35. Which will be the Sixth Seal event.

Peter tells the truth for our days:
A letter to the peoples of God, scattered around the world:

Praise to God and to our Lord Jesus for the hope of salvation and for the protection of His power. Be joyful, although you may have to suffer for a little while, as you pass through the assayers fire.

Since Christ endured bodily suffering, you too must expect this judgement as the end of all days is upon us [you Christians], but do not be taken aback by the fiery ordeal which has come to test you as though you did not know it was coming.

All that has happened concerning Jesus, confirms for us the messages of the prophets, which you will all do well to take seriously. What they say has been given to us by the Holy Spirit and interpretation is by comparing scripture with scripture. Just as in the past there were false prophets and teachers, so it is now. Those who have misled My people will suffer dire punishment.


Note this: In the last days scoffers will come, they will mock and say: ‘What happened to His promised coming? Nothing has changed as yet’. They forget how God destroyed all the wicked peoples in Noah’s day and now the world is reserved for burning and again the godless will be destroyed. The great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath will come unexpectedly, with the heavens tearing apart, flames will envelope the earth and with a loud noise ALL the earth will be brought to judgement.

In expectation of this, do your best to be found at peace with God.

Friends: you have been warned, take care that you do not be taken in by wrong theories and false teachings, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be all the glory!

Ref: R.E.Bible 1 & 2 Peter, condensed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Church will be in heaven before these things come to pass.

Nope. Not bodily. That's not taught in scripture anywhere.

It is the Jews that will see all these things come to pass.

Look at the text more carefully.

Jesus was talking about a global event that would affect "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.". How can you think it's only the Jews who would see global things coming to pass?

The Church can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You are not understanding that "these things" in verse 31 are not the same as "these things" of verse 36. These things of verse 31 are things that will be seen by believers to indicate that He's coming soon. Things like "signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity" (Luke 21:25). Jesus isn't saying to pray to escape that, He's saying to pray to be worthy to escape the wrath that will come down on the day Jesus returns "on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" that will result and heaven and earth passing away.

The Church will escape ALL THESE THINGS that come to pass. The Jews will see all these things come to pass. However, they can also escape the wrath that is to come as there are two harvests. The 12 tribes across the earth which are the seed of the woman Israel will be raptured from the earth at the 6th seal. Those in the nation of Israel will remain on the earth and flee to their protected place during the 7th seal wrath of God.

The snare will come on all of them that dwell on the face of the earth. The Church will already be in heaven and will not be on the face of the earth when that snare comes.

The church will be taken off of the earth on the same day that His wrath comes down on the earth, as Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Jesus comes for the Church before the great tribulation.

Absolutely wrong. You are blatantly contradicting what Jesus Himself taught.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The dead in Christ will already be in heaven.

Only their souls are there.

It puzzles me that you see no raptures until the 7th vial.

I don't care that it puzzles you at this point. I have done everything I can to explain my view and you still disagree. We just don't think alike. So be it. Agree to disagree.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened.

No, it is not.

The twelve tribes across the earth are raptured at the 6th seal. That is when MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be raised.

Many does not mean "some, but not all". According to Jesus, ALL of the dead will be resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29), so why are you interpreting Daniel 12:2 in such a way that contradicts what Jesus taught? He taught that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same time and we know from Daniel 12:2 that their number will be "many" or "a multitude".

Why do you not see that the fig tree has two harvests? Why do you not see there are two folds?

Because there's not. Don't ask me why I don't see what you see. I don't think like you do. Why do you see two harvests? I don't get that at all.

I'm glad that you brought up some things in Luke 21. I learned something that was right in front of my face and is so obvious that I don't see how I missed it. Thanks.

I'd say you're welcome, but I don't even know what you're talking about here.

 

[PinSeeker]

The Church will be in heaven before these things come to pass. It is the Jews that will see all these things come to pass.

Christ's Church, God's elect, God's Israel (His household), and Jews are all names for the same group of people, The Light. If you read what Paul says throughout his letter to the Romans; it's all in the same context:

Romans 2:28-29 ~ "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

Romans 8:1-4 ~ "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus... those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit... You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him..."

Romans 8:29-30 ~ "those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified..."

Romans 8:33-39 ~ "Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died ~ more than that, Who was raised ~ Who is at the right hand of God, Who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, 'For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.' No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 9:6-8 ~ "...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring..."

Romans 9:22-24 ~ "What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."

Romans 11:17-24 ~ "...you (Gentiles), although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree... even they (ethnic Jews), if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you (Gentiles) were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches (believing Jews), be grafted back into their own olive tree..."

Romans 11:25-26 ~ "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

Romans 11:29-31 ~ "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you (Gentiles) were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their (ethnic Jews') disobedience, so they (ethnic Jews) too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy..."

The Church can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man.

And will escape, in the sense that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ... They most certainly escape God's wrath and judgment.

Jesus comes for the Church before the great tribulation.

After. The end of the period of tribulation ~ which is synonymous with the millennium of Revelation 20, which is the fullness of God's time in bringing all elect Gentiles and ethnic Jews to salvation and placing them in Christ, which we are in the midst of now... and maybe very close to the close of ~ is what prompts Jesus's triumphant return.

Grace and peace to you, TheLight.

 

[The Light]

Christ's Church, God's elect, God's Israel (His household), and Jews are all names for the same group of people, The Light. If you read what Paul says throughout his letter to the Romans; it's all in the same context:

Romans 2:28-29 ~ "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

Romans 8:1-4 ~ "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus... those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit... You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him..."

Romans 8:29-30 ~ "those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified..."

Romans 8:33-39 ~ "Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died ~ more than that, Who was raised ~ Who is at the right hand of God, Who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, 'For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.' No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 9:6-8 ~ "...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring..."

Romans 9:22-24 ~ "What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."

Romans 11:17-24 ~ "...you (Gentiles), although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree... even they (ethnic Jews), if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you (Gentiles) were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches (believing Jews), be grafted back into their own olive tree..."

Romans 11:25-26 ~ "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

Romans 11:29-31 ~ "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you (Gentiles) were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their (ethnic Jews') disobedience, so they (ethnic Jews) too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy..."

I am fully aware of these verses. I am also fully aware that there are two folds in John 10. Each fold comes in separately. The first fold is known by the Lord and we know Him. After the fulness of the Gentiles comes in blindness is removed from part of Israel and they become the second fold.

I would have to imagine you are aware of these verses in Romans 11

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

And will escape, in the sense that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ... They most certainly escape God's wrath and judgment.

Oh, it's much more than that. It's escaping all these things that come to pass and standing before the Son of man. That would be before the throne in heaven................

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

After. The end of the period of tribulation ~ which is synonymous with the millennium of Revelation 20,

Sorry. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

which is the fullness of God's time in bringing all elect Gentiles and ethnic Jews to salvation and placing them in Christ, which we are in the midst of now... and maybe very close to the close of ~ is what prompts Jesus's triumphant return.

Grace and peace to you, TheLight.

I am afraid that the above scriptures shoot down your thesis.

And grace and peace to you!

 

[PinSeeker]

I am fully aware of these verses...

I'm sure you are.

I am also fully aware that there are two folds in John 10. Each fold comes in separately... After the fulness of the Gentiles comes in blindness is removed from part of Israel and they become the second fold.

Yes, Jesus, in His conversation with a group of Jews in John 10, is talking about the Gentiles in John 10:16, saying to them, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice." But the two "folds" become one people, His sheep, God's Israel, which He says in the last part of that very verse (10:16), "So there will be one flock, one shepherd." And of course, this is just after He has proclaimed Himself "the good shepherd." Which was my point, which you seem to have either missed completely or avoided.

And to what you say about the order of things, the Gentiles being brought into Israel and the partial blindness now ~ now being both when Paul wrote the letter to the Romans and the present day and at all times in between ~ now on Israel being removed (and thus all of Israel saved) is concurrent; both are at present coming to fruition.

I would have to imagine you are aware of these verses in Romans 11

Well, no need to "imagine"... <smile> But yes, since I quoted them above, obviously... <smile>

I am afraid that the above scriptures shoot down your thesis.

Well, no, they most certainly do not. And... it's not a "thesis." <smile> If you want to call it my opinion, then I'll be happy to accept that, but in the same way, what you're saying is likewise your opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, no need to "imagine"... <smile> But yes, since I quoted them above, obviously... <smile>

LOL. That was too funny for him to ask you if you were aware of verses that you had quoted to him in the post he was replying to.

 

[The Light]

Nope. Not bodily. That's not taught in scripture anywhere.

New bodies are given when the Lord comes. Simple enough. You just don't see that He comes.

Look at the text more carefully.

Jesus was talking about a global event that would affect "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.". How can you think it's only the Jews who would see global things coming to pass?

Sorry, I did not make myself clear. When I said Jews, I meant the seed of the woman, Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth. Those that believe will be raptured at the 6th seal. That is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and those that are still alive from the 12 tribes all over the earth will be gathered from the earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

You are not understanding that "these things" in verse 31 are not the same as "these things" of verse 36. These things of verse 31 are things that will be seen by believers to indicate that He's coming soon. Things like "signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity" (Luke 21:25). Jesus isn't saying to pray to escape that, He's saying to pray to be worthy to escape the wrath that will come down on the day Jesus returns "on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" that will result and heaven and earth passing away.

Even so if you are correct, the Church will already be in heaven before this occurs. We will not be dwelling on the face of the earth at this time. The Church is the 1st fold. After this fold, He must bring another fold with him.

The church will be taken off of the earth on the same day that His wrath comes down on the earth, as Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Paul did not teach that the Church will be on the earth on the same day that wrath comes down.

Additionally, whether you believe it or not, the day of wrath is one year long.

Absolutely wrong. You are blatantly contradicting what Jesus Himself taught.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

No. You blatantly ignore the order of the events of the seals. The 7th seal is the wrath of God............all 7 trumpets and all 7 vials. Someone taught you that the 6th seal is the 7th vial. That is not scriptural nor is it logical.

How can you not see that Gods wrath contains 7 trumpets and 7 vials?

Many does not mean "some, but not all". According to Jesus, ALL of the dead will be resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29), so why are you interpreting Daniel 12:2 in such a way that contradicts what Jesus taught? He taught that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same time and we know from Daniel 12:2 that their number will be "many" or "a multitude".

Why do you not understand that the dead in Christ rise first before the great tribulation and the alive Christian are also caught up? Why do you not understand that the people of Daniel that are Christians will be raised at the 6th seal, dead and alive? And then why do you not understand that ALL that are in their graves will be raised after the 7th trumpet.

There is no conflict. There are two folds. Both folds are in heaven as the great multitude for the marriage supper. All remain in heaven during the one-year wrath of God. Then the armies leave heaven for Armageddon. After the 7th trumpet there will be a resurrection........seen here.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Why do you see two harvests? I don't get that at all.

It's all through scripture. There are two folds. There will be two raptures. All go to heaven as the great multitude.


John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Israel was found as grapes in the wilderness. The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest. The fig tree has two harvests. Instead, the Gentiles become the first harvest. After this there are 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. The fathers of Israel were not accepted as first fruits because Israel served Baalpeor. The 144,000 will be accepted as first fruits, as we see them redeemed from the earth and before the throne in Revelation 14.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

New bodies are given when the Lord comes. Simple enough.

I did not say otherwise, of course.

You just don't see that He comes.

What does this mean?

Sorry, I did not make myself clear. When I said Jews, I meant the seed of the woman, Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth. Those that believe will be raptured at the 6th seal. That is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and those that are still alive from the 12 tribes all over the earth will be gathered from the earth.

Nonsense. The souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered from heaven to descend with Jesus from heaven and then their bodies will be resurrected and changed at which point they, together with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Even so if you are correct, the Church will already be in heaven before this occurs. We will not be dwelling on the face of the earth at this time.

Right. We will be caught up to Christ and then He will proceed to take vengeance on unbelievers by way of "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 4:14-5:3). But, we will escape because we are children of the light rather than darkness (1 Thess 5:4).

Paul did not teach that the Church will be on the earth on the same day that wrath comes down.

Yes, he did. He taught that the church will be caught up to Christ and then Christ will take vengeance on unbelievers by way of "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 4:14-5:3). But, we will escape because we are children of the light rather than darkness (1 Thess 5:4).

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This passage shows that His wrath comes down on the same day "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" which is the day we will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

Additionally, whether you believe it or not, the day of wrath is one year long.

I don't believe it because scripture doesn't teach it. You claiming that means nothing. I go by what scripture teaches.

No. You blatantly ignore the order of the events of the seals.

No, I do not. You don't need to resort to lying like this. That shows that you're not confident in your own view, so you have to resort to lying about your opponent's view as a desperate attempt to make yousr look better.

The 7th seal is the wrath of God............all 7 trumpets and all 7 vials. Someone taught you that the 6th seal is the 7th vial. That is not scriptural nor is it logical.

Stop misrepresenting my view! I have said that at the 6th seal it shows His wrath as being near and at hand, but does it say it actually comes down right then? No, it does not. It has people cowering in fear in anticipation of His wrath coming down on them, but then the wrath actually comes down after that in the 7th seal, trumpet and vial.

How can you not see that Gods wrath contains 7 trumpets and 7 vials?

How can you see that it does? These kinds of questions are pointless. If you actually fully understood what I believe, which you don't, then you wouldn't ask questions like this.

Why do you not understand that the dead in Christ rise first before the great tribulation and the alive Christian are also caught up?

Why do you understand that to be the case when scripture doesn't teach that? See, I can ask these kinds of useless questions, too, but what is the point?

Why do you not understand that the people of Daniel that are Christians will be raised at the 6th seal, dead and alive? And then why do you not understand that ALL that are in their graves will be raised after the 7th trumpet.

Why why why. Good grief. I've explained why many times to you already. Why do you not understand what I tell you? Why do you not know that I've already answered these questions several times?

There is no conflict. There are two folds. Both folds are in heaven as the great multitude for the marriage supper. All remain in heaven during the one-year wrath of God. Then the armies leave heaven for Armageddon. After the 7th trumpet there will be a resurrection........seen here.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


It's all through scripture. There are two folds. There will be two raptures. All go to heaven as the great multitude.


John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Israel was found as grapes in the wilderness. The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest. The fig tree has two harvests. Instead, the Gentiles become the first harvest. After this there are 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. The fathers of Israel were not accepted as first fruits because Israel served Baalpeor. The 144,000 will be accepted as first fruits, as we see them redeemed from the earth and before the throne in Revelation 14.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Now, this is just utter nonsense of epic proportions. The two folds Jesus talked about were Jewish believers and Gentile believers that were brought together into one fold which is the body of Christ, the church. Hello? Are you kidding me here? Why do you have no spiritual discernment?

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Compare that to this...

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

 

[The Light]

I'm sure you are.


Yes, Jesus, in His conversation with a group of Jews in John 10, is talking about the Gentiles in John 10:16, saying to them, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice."

You have got it backwards. The other sheep not of this fold are the Jews, not the Gentiles. It is the Gentiles that are known by God as we are His sheep, and we hear His voice. The Jews are yet blinded for the most part and will not have blindness removed until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. That will occur at time of the rapture of the Church which happens before the great tribulation.


John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

But the two "folds" become one people, His sheep,

Exactly. The first fold is the Church which is raptured before the tribulation. The second fold is the 12 tribes across the earth and those that He knows after blindness is removed will be raptured at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. The two folds become one fold at the gathering from heaven and earth which takes place at the 2nd rapture. Then we see the one-fold as the great multitude in Revelation 7. The great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper as seen in Rev 19.

God's Israel, which He says in the last part of that very verse (10:16), "So there will be one flock, one shepherd." And of course, this is just after He has proclaimed Himself "the good shepherd." Which was my point, which you seem to have either missed completely or avoided.

I did not miss or avoid the fact that two folds become one-fold...........the Israel of God, but you are skipping the fact that there are two folds. That's two raptures...........two harvests as the fig tree has two harvests.

And to what you say about the order of things, the Gentiles being brought into Israel and the partial blindness now ~ now being both when Paul wrote the letter to the Romans and the present day and at all times in between ~ now on Israel being removed (and thus all of Israel saved) is concurrent; both are at present coming to fruition.

The blindness is not removed UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles comes in which is the first fold or the pretribulation rapture.

Grace and peace to you.

And to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have got it backwards. The other sheep not of this fold are the Jews, not the Gentiles. It is the Gentiles that are known by God as we are His sheep, and we hear His voice. The Jews are yet blinded for the most part and will not have blindness removed until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

This is ridiculous. Only those who believe in Jesus are in the one fold. You say the Jews are yet blinded for the most part. That means there are at least some believing Jews, right? Christ's sheep are ONLY those who believe, so believing Jews are one of the folds and believing Gentiles are the other fold and they are brought together as one fold just like is taught throughout New Testament scripture.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Jesus brought Jew and Gentile believers together as "one new man", "one body" and "one fold".

 

[PinSeeker]

You have got it backwards.

That's what I'm saying to you. In addition to what I said about God's Israel.

The other sheep not of this fold are the Jews, not the Gentiles. It is the Gentiles that are known by God as we are His sheep, and we hear His voice.

All of those who are Christ's... who have been born again of the Holy Spirit... saved by grace through faith... for all time up to now (see Hebrews 11; "by faith...") ...are His sheep and hear His voice.

The Jews are yet blinded for the most part...

Sure. But the proportion of those blinded and those unblinded is going down. <smile>

and will not have blindness removed until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Not completely, no. Both will be brought to completion at the same time. God is building His Israel as we speak. And it may be very close to completion.

That will occur at time of the rapture of the Church which happens...

No "rapture." The return of Christ will certainly be a rapturous event, very much in the sense of what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; He will forcefully, irresistibly, and uncontestedly seize what is His once and for all.

before the great tribulation.

After.

Exactly.

We agree on something, at least. <smile>

The first fold is the Church which is raptured before the tribulation. The second fold is the 12 tribes across the earth and those that He knows after blindness is removed...

The first fold consists of ethnic Jewish believers. The second consists of all Gentile believers. And they ~ we ~ are all one in Christ. But 'first' and 'second' is really a misnomer of sorts, except in the true sense of "to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles."

will be raptured...

No "rapture."

at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. The two folds become one fold at the gathering from heaven and earth which takes place at the 2nd rapture. Then we see the one-fold as the great multitude in Revelation 7. The great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper as seen in Rev 19.


I did not miss or avoid the fact that two folds become one-fold...........the Israel of God...

Good.

...you are skipping the fact that there are two folds.

Even though I just acknowledged it; you even quoted me doing so... <smile> Nope.

That's two raptures.......

No, not even one... <smile>

Actually, though, in the sense of our having been born again of the Spirit, we could say and would be correct in doing so that there have been a multitude of raptures up to this point so far; our hearts have been raptured by God, in which sense we are in this world but not of it.

....two harvests as the fig tree has two harvests.

In a manner of speaking, I guess... harvests of two folds. So really, it can be understood as two harvests, but it can also be understood as one harvest with two parts. Maybe we agree on that; it is what it is.

The blindness is not removed UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles comes in...

Disagree. It's not an invalid understanding of what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26, and neither is mine. One is inaccurate, though, and... well, we disagree on which it is.

...the pretribulation rapture.

No such thing. We are in the period of tribulation now, which again is synonymous with the millennium, the "thousand years," of Revelation 20. And there will be a great ramping up, in the sense of a final, great conflict near the end... which, we may be very near that point now.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

That's what I'm saying to you. In addition to what I said about God's Israel.

And yet the scripture says that the first fold is those that are known by Jesus and we know Him.

Denying the facts of scripture does not change the truth.

All of those who are Christ's... who have been born again of the Holy Spirit... saved by grace through faith... for all time up to now (see Hebrews 11; "by faith...") ...are His sheep and hear His voice.

Sorry. God saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the fig tree AT HER FIRST TIME. But they served Baalpeor.
In other word God saw Israel as the first harvest but they served Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the first harvest. That is why after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes.

The fig tree has two harvests and the Gentiles are the first harvest. Even as Jacob received Leah as His first bride and the chosen bride Rachel was the second bride.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Sure. But the proportion of those blinded and those unblinded is going down. <smile>

Wait until the fulness of the Gentiles happens.

Not completely, no. Both will be brought to completion at the same time. God is building His Israel as we speak. And it may be very close to completion.

This is completely without scriptural support. The first fold comes in before the second fold. Then there is one fold which is the great multitude.

The first fold consists of ethnic Jewish believers. The second consists of all Gentile believers. And they ~ we ~ are all one in Christ. But 'first' and 'second' is really a misnomer of sorts, except in the true sense of "to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles."

The folds do not occur until the harvest. The first fold is the first harvest. The second fold is the second harvest. So your point is in error.

In a manner of speaking, I guess... harvests of two folds. So really, it can be understood as two harvests, but it can also be understood as one harvest with two parts. Maybe we agree on that; it is what it is.

Sorry the fig tree has two harvests. There is no mistake.

Additionally, in the feasts of God there are two harvests...........grain and fruit.

No such thing. We are in the period of tribulation now,

Sorry. The tribulation of those days in Matthew 24 is the great tribulation. The great tribulation does not begin until the AOD is set up in the Temple.

which again is synonymous with the millennium, the "thousand years," of Revelation 20. And there will be a great ramping up, in the sense of a final, great conflict near the end... which, we may be very near that point now.

Nope. There is the great tribulation and there is the wrath of God............after these things comes the Millenium.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And yet the scripture says that the first fold is those that are known by Jesus and we know Him.

But, in John 10 Jesus was referring to His fold of Israelite believers as the first fold because He was sent to save them first with the salvation of the Gentiles coming later. There were no Gentiles in the first fold when Jesus was speaking in John 10.

Matthew 15:21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

There's the first fold. Those of the lost sheep of Israel who believed and became His sheep are of the first fold because He was sent only to them in the sense that the gospel of salvation was to come first to the Jews and then later His apostles would bring the gospel to the Gentiles and those Gentiles who believed were His other fold that He joined together in one fold.

And that lines up with this:

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

He made both Jew and Gentile believers one. One new man. One body. One fold.

 

[PinSeeker]

And yet the scripture says that the first fold is those that are known by Jesus and we know Him.

That's true of all Jesus's sheep.

Denying the facts of scripture does not change the truth.

No one is denying anything, The Light. Just because someone proclaims something a fact does not make it so. So, yes, I'm very much disagreeing with your understanding of certain scriptural things, for sure.

Sorry

No apologies necessary.

This is completely without scriptural support.

In your opinion. And you may certainly call this my opinion as well, but there is absolutely no scriptural support for any kind of "rapture," any kind of removal of any number of folks from earth and then a subsequently bringing back of those folks.

So your point is in error.

Okay, well, we think the same of each other.

Sorry...

No need to apologize. Especially insincerely.

Sorry.

<smile> No need...

The tribulation of those days in Matthew 24 is the great tribulation. The great tribulation does not begin until the AOD is set up in the Temple.

Ah, dispensationalism... Scripture is covenantal in structure, The Light, not dispensational.

There is the great tribulation and there is the wrath of God............after these things comes the Millenium.

Ugh. <smile> In the end, Jesus wins. <smile> I think we can agree on that. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not really, no, they will depart. Jesus will say, in the final Judgment, "Depart from Me, for I never knew you." Right, they won't be "taken" in the sense that... rapturists... suppose the church to be taken or removed.


That's all you, Rebuilder. That's one of my points. Rapturists reframe... well, not necessarily the "setting," as that's unmistakable, but rather the context of what Jesus is saying there.


Not about the setting; that's completely missing the impact of what He's saying. The context is made clear in verses 38-39, "...as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." It's the same way, the same context in Luke's account, where he quotes Jesus as saying, "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all." On top of that, Luke quotes Jesus as also likening it to the days of Lot; "...they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all ~ so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed." So, not only do you miss the whole thrust of the passage, focusing on the setting instead of the context, you apply a completely different context to the Matthew 24 passage as is so clear in Luke 17. Again, it's the wicked who will be destroyed ~ in the sense of being ruined ~ and will subsequently depart, be sent away as a result of the final Judgment.

No, in my "model," I have all being judged according to what they have done, and believers judged righteous...because they are in Christ and have been resurrected to eternal life... and the unrepentant being sent away, because they are not in Christ and have been resurrected to judgment.


Certainly.


I honestly don't even know what you mean by this.


I wish you would... <smile>


So I agree with this, Rebuilder, but the Noah's flood and the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah were God's judgments... and a foreshadowing of the final Judgment that will take place when Jesus returns. So, yes, Jesus is coming before the final Judgment. He's coming to execute it.


Pre-Judgment. He's coming in judgment.


Well, some portion will be taken in the final Judgment, yes, absolutely. Let me submit this, Rebuilder. In Matthew 24, Jesus actually says of Noah's day and the flood, "in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away..." Who do you understand that 'they' and 'them' to refer to? Again, "they were unaware... the flood came and swept them all away..."; "they were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all" (Matthew 24:39; Luke 17:27) And then Jesus says, "so will be the coming of the Son of Man." So the question I submit to you is, who is actually taken? If you say, "believers," as it seems you have it, I submit to you that you have it exactly backwards.


Disagree; He's not speaking of actual proportions. More on that directly below...


Again, we don't know the actual proportion. Because the ones preserved to eternal life, God's elect, are repeatedly referred to as the remnant God has preserved for Himself, I am inclined to believe that the number of folks who do inherit eternal life is far less than those who do not. Jesus is certainly distinguishing one from the other, so one group from the other, but actual proportions are not in view.

But yes, right, they will think there is nothing coming, nothing to worry about, and keep right on dwelling in sin. He is speaking of unbelievers, Rebuilder. And in the final Judgment, they "will not stand in the Judgment " (Psalm 1), meaning, ultimately, they will be the ones relegated to the second death; they will go away into eternal judgment. These are the ones who will "come out of their tombs... to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29). These are the ones who will be on Jesus's left at the final Judgment, to whom He will say, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... and these will go away into eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:41 and following). These are the ones whose "name (will) not (be) found written in the book of life" and therefore will be "thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15) ~ submersed in God's final Judgment ~ for eternity.

So regarding who is "taken," Rebuilder... I submit to you that you should... reevaluate <smile>... who is actually "taken." And, in what sense, and why.

Grace and peace to you.

No.
Jesus is not telling unbelievers to watch and be ready.
Way way off.

Your statement that Jesus wasted his words in his declaration of the setting tells me you are force fitting your model into a false doctrine.
Again, two in a bed, one taken one left behind.
Your model has a believer in bed with a Satanist.
Your model has half the world saved, and half heathen Satanists.

Hard to wiggle out of all that.
Maybe some clever memes will decisively make the bible change all that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That's what I'm saying to you. In addition to what I said about God's Israel.


All of those who are Christ's... who have been born again of the Holy Spirit... saved by grace through faith... for all time up to now (see Hebrews 11; "by faith...") ...are His sheep and hear His voice.


Sure. But the proportion of those blinded and those unblinded is going down. <smile>

Not completely, no. Both will be brought to completion at the same time. God is building His Israel as we speak. And it may be very close to completion.


No "rapture." The return of Christ will certainly be a rapturous event, very much in the sense of what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; He will forcefully, irresistibly, and uncontestedly seize what is His once and for all.


After.


We agree on something, at least. <smile>


The first fold consists of ethnic Jewish believers. The second consists of all Gentile believers. And they ~ we ~ are all one in Christ. But 'first' and 'second' is really a misnomer of sorts, except in the true sense of "to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles."


No "rapture."


Good.


Even though I just acknowledged it; you even quoted me doing so... <smile> Nope.


No, not even one... <smile>

Actually, though, in the sense of our having been born again of the Spirit, we could say and would be correct in doing so that there have been a multitude of raptures up to this point so far; our hearts have been raptured by God, in which sense we are in this world but not of it.


In a manner of speaking, I guess... harvests of two folds. So really, it can be understood as two harvests, but it can also be understood as one harvest with two parts. Maybe we agree on that; it is what it is.


Disagree. It's not an invalid understanding of what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26, and neither is mine. One is inaccurate, though, and... well, we disagree on which it is.


No such thing. We are in the period of tribulation now, which again is synonymous with the millennium, the "thousand years," of Revelation 20. And there will be a great ramping up, in the sense of a final, great conflict near the end... which, we may be very near that point now.

Grace and peace to you.

Oh OK
Amil.
SMH.
NO WAY TO MAKE THAT WORK.
no ac in history or now.
No 4 horsemen
No mark
No flying scorpions
No commerce restricted
No hailstones of fire.

 

[PinSeeker]

No.

Yes. We disagree. It's okay. <smile>

Jesus is not telling unbelievers to watch and be ready. Way way off.

I didn't say or insinuate that. See, this is what's so strange, is that you (and others), in addition to understanding a lot of Scriptural things incorrectly, even understand what "Amills" are saying incorrectly. The only question is, do you do that on purpose, or do you do it inadvertently? I mean, neither is good at all, but still, that's the question.

Your statement that Jesus wasted his words in his declaration of the setting tells me you are force fitting your model into a false doctrine.

Again, in no way did He do that. What you are attributing to me as me having said or insinuated is not what I have said or insinuated at all.

Your model has a believer in bed with a Satanist.

Well, if you mean "in bed with" in the sense of in the world with at the time of Jesus's return, then yes. But I would hope no one believes otherwise...

Your model has half the world saved, and half heathen Satanists.

I have clearly said, many times, no actual proportions are in view, and I have clearly said, many times, that the Israel of God is a minority ~ and maybe a very small minority ~ in proportion to "satanists."

Yet still, the number of the saved will be an innumerable multitude. As the stars of the heavens, the grains of sand on the seashore, as it were.

Hard to wiggle out of all that.

It might be, I guess, but I was never there. <smile>

Maybe some clever memes will decisively make the bible change all that.

God's Word endures forever.

no ac in history or now.
No 4 horsemen
No mark
No flying scorpions
No commerce restricted
No hailstones of fire.

Ugh. I mean, "Amils" surely believe in these things, too, but don't take it in the same wooden sense as you or other like-minded folks. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.