The Coming Rapture

[Keraz]

Zechariah 14 can't possibly have anything to do with a time period after His return

But Zech 14:9-21, goes on to tell us how Jesus will reign in Jerusalem and will reign over the world from there.
Zech 14:11 Jerusalem will be inhabited and never again will destruction come upon her, all will live there in peace and security.

It is your wrong belief of Amill, which makes you confused.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But Zech 14:9-21, goes on to tell us how Jesus will reign in Jerusalem and will reign over the world from there.
Zech 14:11 Jerusalem will be inhabited and never again will destruction come upon her, all will live there in peace and security.

How do you interpret this passage...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I'm assuming that your translation reads similar to this, but who knows? Is it similar? If so, do you have the burning up of the earth occurring before or after the time when destruction never again occurs in Jerusalem?

It is your wrong belief of Amill, which makes you confused.

Few are more confused than you because few, if any, agree with your overall understanding of end times doctrine. You get a couple things right here and there, but a lot of other things wrong.

By the way, it's quite funny for you to criticize Amill the way you do when you agree with us that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 will be fulfilled after the thousand years and agree with us that the church is the spiritual Israel of God (some Premills agree, but it's mostly Amills who believe that). You disagree with other Premills on a number of things, so I hope you're not trying to imply that your belief in Premill makes it so that you are not confused. If that was the case, then you would be in more agreement with other Premills than what you are, but you're not.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Let’s speak plainly: the “rapture” you’re referring to — a secret snatching away of the Church before tribulation — is not found in Scripture. It’s a modern invention, born in the 1830s through John Nelson Darby and later canonized into evangelical thought by C.I. Scofield. Jesus never taught it. The apostles never preached it. It’s absent from the writings of the early Church for nearly 1,800 years. What the Bible does say is that Christ will return once — not in secret, but in glory — and His return will mark the resurrection of the dead, the gathering of the elect, and the final judgment.

Read Matthew 24:29–31 carefully. Jesus says immediately after the tribulation, the Son of Man appears and the angels gather His elect. Not before. Not during some secret event. After. Paul echoes this in 1 Thessalonians 4 — the trumpet blast, the resurrection of the dead, and the living meeting Christ in the air — all elements of His visible, final return. This is not escapism. This is vindication at the end of endurance.

Those who cling to the idea that the Church will be removed before suffering are not reading the Bible — they’re reading Scofield. The same Scofield who chopped up the covenants of God and handed the future of redemption back to those who rejected Christ. The true Gospel calls us not to avoid the cross, but to take it up daily. Christ didn’t promise escape from tribulation — He promised victory through it. Revelation says, “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony — and they loved not their lives even unto death.”

So yes — wash your robes in the blood of the Lamb now, but not because you're hoping to avoid discomfort. Do it because Christ is worthy, and because He already endured the wrath so you wouldn't have to. Do it because you're part of the Bride — not some temporary passenger waiting to bail out when the fire gets hot. The Church will stand, even as the world burns, and she will be purified — not by rapture, but by refinement. The wheat and tares grow together until the end. And when Christ returns, it won't be to rescue a fearful bride — but to reward a faithful one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let’s speak plainly: the “rapture” you’re referring to — a secret snatching away of the Church before tribulation — is not found in Scripture. It’s a modern invention, born in the 1830s through John Nelson Darby and later canonized into evangelical thought by C.I. Scofield. Jesus never taught it. The apostles never preached it. It’s absent from the writings of the early Church for nearly 1,800 years. What the Bible does say is that Christ will return once — not in secret, but in glory — and His return will mark the resurrection of the dead, the gathering of the elect, and the final judgment.

Read Matthew 24:29–31 carefully. Jesus says immediately after the tribulation, the Son of Man appears and the angels gather His elect. Not before. Not during some secret event. After. Paul echoes this in 1 Thessalonians 4 — the trumpet blast, the resurrection of the dead, and the living meeting Christ in the air — all elements of His visible, final return. This is not escapism. This is vindication at the end of endurance.

Those who cling to the idea that the Church will be removed before suffering are not reading the Bible — they’re reading Scofield. The same Scofield who chopped up the covenants of God and handed the future of redemption back to those who rejected Christ. The true Gospel calls us not to avoid the cross, but to take it up daily. Christ didn’t promise escape from tribulation — He promised victory through it. Revelation says, “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony — and they loved not their lives even unto death.”

So yes — wash your robes in the blood of the Lamb now, but not because you're hoping to avoid discomfort. Do it because Christ is worthy, and because He already endured the wrath so you wouldn't have to. Do it because you're part of the Bride — not some temporary passenger waiting to bail out when the fire gets hot. The Church will stand, even as the world burns, and she will be purified — not by rapture, but by refinement. The wheat and tares grow together until the end. And when Christ returns, it won't be to rescue a fearful bride — but to reward a faithful one.

Agree completely. Do those who believe in a pre-trib rapture have these verses in their Bibles?

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

What makes these pre-tribs think that in the future Christians will avoid tribulation when Christians for the past almost 2,000 years have experienced tribulation?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let’s speak plainly: the “rapture” you’re referring to — a secret snatching away of the Church before tribulation — is not found in Scripture. It’s a modern invention, born in the 1830s through John Nelson Darby and later canonized into evangelical thought by C.I. Scofield. Jesus never taught it. The apostles never preached it. It’s absent from the writings of the early Church for nearly 1,800 years. What the Bible does say is that Christ will return once — not in secret, but in glory — and His return will mark the resurrection of the dead, the gathering of the elect, and the final judgment.

Read Matthew 24:29–31 carefully. Jesus says immediately after the tribulation, the Son of Man appears and the angels gather His elect. Not before. Not during some secret event. After. Paul echoes this in 1 Thessalonians 4 — the trumpet blast, the resurrection of the dead, and the living meeting Christ in the air — all elements of His visible, final return. This is not escapism. This is vindication at the end of endurance.

Those who cling to the idea that the Church will be removed before suffering are not reading the Bible — they’re reading Scofield. The same Scofield who chopped up the covenants of God and handed the future of redemption back to those who rejected Christ. The true Gospel calls us not to avoid the cross, but to take it up daily. Christ didn’t promise escape from tribulation — He promised victory through it. Revelation says, “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony — and they loved not their lives even unto death.”

So yes — wash your robes in the blood of the Lamb now, but not because you're hoping to avoid discomfort. Do it because Christ is worthy, and because He already endured the wrath so you wouldn't have to. Do it because you're part of the Bride — not some temporary passenger waiting to bail out when the fire gets hot. The Church will stand, even as the world burns, and she will be purified — not by rapture, but by refinement. The wheat and tares grow together until the end. And when Christ returns, it won't be to rescue a fearful bride — but to reward a faithful one.

The rapture of 1 thes 4 is the gathering of the bride.
It is the "one taken, one left" of mat 24.
It is the 5 wise virgins taken TO THE MARRIAGE CHANBER IN HEAVEN of mat 25.
It is the "like manner" return of Acts 1

The gathering of Rev 14 :14 it the gathering of the Jews.

These 2 separate gatherings declared by Jesus, you have reframed to make the God of the universe an inventer of fairytales

Not 1 rapture/gathering/ harpazo, but 2 completely different gatherings apart from the second coming on white horses.

Hard to wiggle out of scripture by invoking extra biblical dead men.( but I do understand that doctrine forces that desperation)
As for some hope that you will run from cave to cave from the AC, that is out of whack also.( comical how the ones that use "escapist" As a "put down", see themselves surviving the trib by running around trying to escape martyrdom)
It says every man Woman and child takes the mark, that's not written in the Lambs book of life.
It also says, that power is given to the Antichrist to overcome the saints.
it Also says, That the saints over came him by the blood of the lamb and the word of the testimony and that they loved not their lives unto death.( martyrdom)
revelation 20 refers back to these people that were beheaded by the AC for refusing the mark.
So no, all of your imagining, that you are gonna go through the tribulation. And anybody outside of your box is some escape artist. That whole concept is a big fail.

Jesus said to pray to escape.
But it gets even worse for you because he said " pray that you may be counted WORTHY to escape..."
The one taken/left is a "worthy" dynamic.
The vigin parable is a "worthiness" dynamic.
Jesus himself says so.

Is Jesus wrong?
Maybe mens doctrine is foolishness compared to Him.

Jesus = "watch and be ready"
Men's doctrine scoffs at that.

 

[PinSeeker]

The only ones "taken" in the days of Noah were the wicked... everyone except Noah and his family and the animals. The rest were... swept away in the flood. And suddenly, without warning, which was Jesus's point in Matthew 24:36-44 ~ "that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only... they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away." Noah's ark was representative of Jesus in Genesis 6-9, Who ~ in the same way Noah and his family were carried and delivered through the flood ~ carries us and delivers us through the "storm," this current age of tribulation. In the words of David:

"The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake."​

​

"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever."​

​

[Psalm 23]​

Thank you for your post, TheGospelOfChrist. It is indeed good news (to put it mildly). <smile>

Grace and peace to all..

 

[The Light]

Let’s speak plainly: the “rapture” you’re referring to — a secret snatching away of the Church before tribulation — is not found in Scripture.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

It’s a modern invention, born in the 1830s through John Nelson Darby and later canonized into evangelical thought by C.I. Scofield. Jesus never taught it. The apostles never preached it. It’s absent from the writings of the early Church for nearly 1,800 years.

I think you are regurgitating what others claim without doing your own REsearch. If you did some actual REsearch, you would find your statement is in error.

What the Bible does say is that Christ will return once — not in secret, but in glory — and His return will mark the resurrection of the dead, the gathering of the elect, and the final judgment.

Where in scripture does it say that the Lord will return ONLY ONCE. Scripture says He returns twice...............BEFORE Armageddon.

Read Matthew 24:29–31 carefully. Jesus says immediately after the tribulation, the Son of Man appears and the angels gather His elect. Not before.

Where does scripture say He does not come before the tribulation? Yes, Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation AT THE 6TH SEAL as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. This is the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs immediately after the tribulation AND BEFORE THE 7TH SEAL WRATH OF GOD.

The Word says that the Lord HIMSELF comes in 1 Thes 4. That is when He will come for His bride.......before the great tribulation.

Not during some secret event. After. Paul echoes this in 1 Thessalonians 4 — the trumpet blast, the resurrection of the dead, and the living meeting Christ in the air — all elements of His visible, final return. This is not escapism. This is vindication at the end of endurance.

There is a difference between the Lord Himself coming at the trump of God or voice of God for His bride 1 Thes 4, and Jesus coming and sending His angels to gather the elect at the Last Trump, which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, 1 Corinthians 15.

Those who cling to the idea that the Church will be removed before suffering are not reading the Bible — they’re reading Scofield. The same Scofield who chopped up the covenants of God and handed the future of redemption back to those who rejected Christ. The true Gospel calls us not to avoid the cross, but to take it up daily. Christ didn’t promise escape from tribulation — He promised victory through it. Revelation says, “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony — and they loved not their lives even unto death.”

Christ comes for the Church before the tribulation. Then blindness is removed from part of Israel. We are warned not to be ignorant of this.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I never read anything from Scofield nor the writings of John Nelson Darby. I was a post tribber. Then I realized the Word says Jesus comes MORE THAN ONCE. After understanding that, which is Biblical, all the arguments about there not being a pretribulation rapture go up in smoke.

There are two raptures before the coming Jesus at Armageddon.

So yes — wash your robes in the blood of the Lamb now, but not because you're hoping to avoid discomfort. Do it because Christ is worthy, and because He already endured the wrath so you wouldn't have to. Do it because you're part of the Bride — not some temporary passenger waiting to bail out when the fire gets hot. The Church will stand, even as the world burns, and she will be purified — not by rapture, but by refinement. The wheat and tares grow together until the end. And when Christ returns, it won't be to rescue a fearful bride — but to reward a faithful one.

Do you not understand that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel? Those that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses.......they are Jews. The Church is already in heaven before the tribulation.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

I believe that you are missing many, many details in the Word of God that paint a much different picture than what you have been taught.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The rapture of 1 thes 4 is the gathering of the bride.
It is the "one taken, one left" of mat 24.
It is the 5 wise virgins taken TO THE MARRIAGE CHANBER IN HEAVEN of mat 25.
It is the "like manner" return of Acts 1

The gathering of Rev 14 :14 it the gathering of the Jews.

These 2 separate gatherings declared by Jesus, you have reframed to make the God of the universe an inventer of fairytales

Your 2 rapture theory is a fairytale. There is absolutely nothing written anywhere in scripture to suggest that there will be 2 raptures. You just make these baseless claims and think you have proven something without doing anything at all to actually back them up. It's ridiculous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

How does this prove the idea of a secret rapture before the tribulation? That verse only proves that we don't know when it will occur. Once it does occur there will be nothing secret about it.

Where in scripture does it say that the Lord will return ONLY ONCE. Scripture says He returns twice...............BEFORE Armageddon.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Scripture only speaks of Him coming a second time which will be in like manner to the way He left after His first coming. Nowhere does it say He will go back to heaven after coming in like manner and then come a third time.

Where does scripture say He does not come before the tribulation? Yes, Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation AT THE 6TH SEAL as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

So, there you go. That's where it says it.

This is the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs immediately after the tribulation AND BEFORE THE 7TH SEAL WRATH OF GOD.

The wrath comes down immediately after the gathering from heaven and earth occurs. Paul taught that in 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

The Word says that the Lord HIMSELF comes in 1 Thes 4. That is when He will come for His bride.......before the great tribulation.

You are misinterpreting what that means. It's not saying the Lord Himself and only Him comes in 1 Thess 4. How could the voice of the archangel sound at that time if it was only Jesus? What it's saying is that instead of any longer sending warnings or signs of His soon coming, the Lord Himself comes at that point. In no way, shape or form was Paul intending to say that the Lord comes alone in 1 Thess 4. That's your doctrinal bias telling you that.

There is a difference between the Lord Himself coming at the trump of God or voice of God for His bride 1 Thes 4, and Jesus coming and sending His angels to gather the elect at the Last Trump, which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, 1 Corinthians 15.

Wrong. You are reading things into the text that aren't there.

Christ comes for the Church before the tribulation. Then blindness is removed from part of Israel. We are warned not to be ignorant of this.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I never read anything from Scofield nor the writings of John Nelson Darby. I was a post tribber. Then I realized the Word says Jesus comes MORE THAN ONCE. After understanding that, which is Biblical, all the arguments about there not being a pretribulation rapture go up in smoke.

You are apparently ignorant of the fact that blindness has been removed from some Israelites on an ongoing basis for the past almost 2,000 years, including some in Paul's day, and that will continue to happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, at which point Jesus will return.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Can you see here that Paul talked about saving some of those who were blinded in his day? You are trying to postpone something that already started happening in Paul's day.

There are two raptures before the coming Jesus at Armageddon.

No, there are not. Paul wrote about one rapture for good reason. Because there is only one rapture.

Do you not understand that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel?

Yes, and it was fulfilled long ago already by Christ who fulfilled all of the things listed in Daniel 9:24.

Those that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses.......they are Jews. The Church is already in heaven before the tribulation.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

I believe that you are missing many, many details in the Word of God that paint a much different picture than what you have been taught.

I believe that about you.

 

[The Light]

Your 2 rapture theory is a fairytale. There is absolutely nothing written anywhere in scripture to suggest that there will be 2 raptures. You just make these baseless claims and think you have proven something without doing anything at all to actually back them up. It's ridiculous.

Thinking that coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same as the 7th trumpet and 7th vial which are in the 7th seal is farfetched, to say the least.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thinking that coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same as the 7th trumpet and 7th vial which are in the 7th seal is farfetched, to say the least.

Not at all. You don't understand why heaven is silent at the 7th seal. It's because Jesus, the souls of the dead in Christ and His angels have left heaven at that point, leaving it empty and silent. That isn't farfetched at all and lines up with the rest of scripture. Your false 2 rapture theory can't be supported by scripture. Paul made it clear in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 that His wrath comes down just after the one and only rapture occurs.

 

[The Light]

How does this prove the idea of a secret rapture before the tribulation? That verse only proves that we don't know when it will occur. Once it does occur there will be nothing secret about it.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He will come in like manner after Armageddon.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Unto them that look for Him.

Those that believe in a rapture before the tribulation are the ones that are watching. That should concern those that don't think He comes in an hour that they think not.

Scripture only speaks of Him coming a second time which will be in like manner to the way He left after His first coming. Nowhere does it say He will go back to heaven after coming in like manner and then come a third time.

Nowhere that you see.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Those that are known by Jesus will be in the first fold when He comes. Other sheep not of this fold will have their eyes opened after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

144.000 first fruits from the 12 tribes are proof of this.

Here is another coming of Jesus. He comes for the first fruits of the second harvest. How do you explain His coming for the first fruits if He only comes once?

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

So, there you go. That's where it says it.

And yet He comes more than once. Scriptural FACT.

The wrath comes down immediately after the gathering from heaven and earth occurs. Paul taught that in 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Paul talks about the coming of Jesus in 1 Thes 4. Then he says......... But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

If he was coming only once, Paul would have said, but of the time and season.

Obviously, He comes more than once. It's all over the Bible and yet it escapes you.

You are misinterpreting what that means. It's not saying the Lord Himself and only Him comes in 1 Thess 4. How could the voice of the archangel sound at that time if it was only Jesus? What it's saying is that instead of any longer sending warnings or signs of His soon coming, the Lord Himself comes at that point. In no way, shape or form was Paul intending to say that the Lord comes alone in 1 Thess 4. That's your doctrinal bias telling you that.

Do you not see the difference between the Lord Himself coming and the Lord sending His angels?

Wrong. You are reading things into the text that aren't there.

Or you don't understand what is there.

You are apparently ignorant of the fact that blindness has been removed from some Israelites on an ongoing basis for the past almost 2,000 years, including some in Paul's day, and that will continue to happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, at which point Jesus will return.

That has nothing to do with blindness being removed after the fulness of the Gentiles coming in.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Can you see here that Paul talked about saving some of those who were blinded in his day? You are trying to postpone something that already started happening in Paul's day.

I see that this blindness will be removed...............when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

No, there are not. Paul wrote about one rapture for good reason. Because there is only one rapture.

Paul said there was more than one coming. But of the times and seasons....................................

Yes, and it was fulfilled long ago already by Christ who fulfilled all of the things listed in Daniel 9:24.

Messiah was cut off.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off

 

[The Light]

Not at all. You don't understand why heaven is silent at the 7th vial.

I don't see any silence in heaven at the 7th vial.

Revelation 16
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

I have no idea how you cannot see the other 6 trumpets and 6 vials that occur within the 7th seal.

It's because Jesus, the souls of the dead in Christ and His angels have left heaven at that point, leaving it empty and silent. That isn't farfetched at all and lines up with the rest of scripture.

See above..............GREAT VOICE.................not silence. Put down the sledgehammer. You are beating things into places they do not belong.

Your false 2 rapture theory can't be supported by scripture. Paul made it clear in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 that His wrath comes down just after the one and only rapture occurs.

This statement doesn't prove anything. Of course, wrath comes down after the rapture that occurs immediately after the tribulation. But you put the 1st six trumpets and vials somewhere else instead of part the 7th seal where they belong. Why you don't see that, I don't know.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Don't post scriptures without commentary. I don't know how you think this supports your theory about a secret rapture before the tribulation. Jesus was not talking about the tribulation there, He was talking about escaping His wrath. I thought you knew how to differentiate between the tribulation and His wrath?

Those that believe in a rapture before the tribulation are the ones that are watching. That should concern those that don't think He comes in an hour that they think not.

He is coming after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) and no one knows the day or hour that will happen (Matt 24:36) and when He comes after the tribulation He will destroy all unbelievers just like what happened with the flood in Noah's day (Matt 24:37-39).

Nowhere that you see.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Those that are known by Jesus will be in the first fold when He comes. Other sheep not of this fold will have their eyes opened after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

144.000 first fruits from the 12 tribes are proof of this.

Here is another coming of Jesus. He comes for the first fruits of the second harvest. How do you explain His coming for the first fruits if He only comes once?

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Do you believe in soul sleep? If not, then why can't you understand that that is talking about souls o dead believers in heaven? Where does it say that they were bodily resurrected? Your beliefs are based on assumptions and not on clear scripture.

And yet He comes more than once. Scriptural FACT.

LOL. Please humble yourself and stop referring to your OPINIONS as FACTS. He does NOT come again more than once.

Paul talks about the coming of Jesus in 1 Thes 4. Then he says......... But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

If he was coming only once, Paul would have said, but of the time and season.

He was not talking about multiple times and seasons that Jesus would come. Good grief. You take so much scripture out of context. He was talking about the times and seasons that lead up to His one second coming. Paul was saying that he didn't need to write to them about the times and seasons that lead up to the second coming because Jesus talked about that and they should already know about that and Paul had probably already taught them about that as well. How would Jesus coming 2 times be referred to as "times and seasons"? That's nonsense.

Obviously, He comes more than once. It's all over the Bible and yet it escapes you.

It's nowhere in the Bible. It's in your active imagination.

Do you not see the difference between the Lord Himself coming and the Lord sending His angels?

Do you actually read anything I say? Your comments would suggest that you don't. I explained what it saying "The Lord Himself" means, so why don't you address what I said about that? If it was saying He comes alone at that time then how could the voice of the archangel sound at that time?

I see that this blindness will be removed...............when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

That's not what it says! The blindness was already being removed from some who were blinded in Paul's day. Are you just ignoring that? That has continued to happen ever since and will continue to happen until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. It does NOT say that the blindness is removed after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. You are once again reading something into scripture that is not there.

Romans 11
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Do you just stop reading there? Continue reading from there and stop cherry picking scripture...

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

You interpret Romans 11:9-10 as if it says that they were blinded and none of them will have their blindness removed until after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, but that is not at all what Paul was saying. Notice in verses 11-14 that Paul intended to lead some of those who were blinded to salvation and I don't doubt that he succeeded in doing so. So, why do you act as if none of those who are blinded ever have their blindness removed until after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in? You take Romans 11 completely out of context.

Paul said there was more than one coming. But of the times and seasons....................................

That's NOT what that means! Good grief...

Messiah was cut off.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off

So, of course, the threescore and two weeks (62 weeks) come after the first 7 weeks, so that means He is cut off some time after the end of the 69th week. What comes after 69? 70. He was cut off during the 70th week.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't see any silence in heaven at the 7th vial.

I meant the 7th seal.

Revelation 16
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

I have no idea how you cannot see the other 6 trumpets and 6 vials that occur within the 7th seal.

I don't care that you can't see that. I've done all I can to get you to see what I believe and you still don't get it. Whatever.

 

[The Light]

Don't post scriptures without commentary. I don't know how you think this supports your theory about a secret rapture before the tribulation. Jesus was not talking about the tribulation there, He was talking about escaping His wrath. I thought you knew how to differentiate between the tribulation and His wrath?

I do know the difference between tribulation and wrath.

The first 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows, and the fifth seal is the great tribulation. We can escape ALL THESE THINGS and stand before the Son of man.

He is coming after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) and no one knows the day or hour that will happen (Matt 24:36) and when He comes after the tribulation He will destroy all unbelievers just like what happened with the flood in Noah's day (Matt 24:37-39).

He will come after the tribulation and THEN.............6 trumpets and 5 vials before He comes at the 6th trumpet for Armageddon.

Do you believe in soul sleep? If not, then why can't you understand that that is talking about souls o dead believers in heaven? Where does it say that they were bodily resurrected? Your beliefs are based on assumptions and not on clear scripture.

Do these sound like souls in heaven under the altar or are these people in heaven with new bodies.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Jesus has come in Revelation 4 proven by the crowns on the 24 elders and Jesus has come again at the 6th seal as proven by those that came out of great tribulation in Revelation 7.

LOL. Please humble yourself and stop referring to your OPINIONS as FACTS. He does NOT come again more than once.

Two raptures, two harvest, two folds.

The fig tree has two harvests. FACT.
John 10 two folds. FACT.

Obviously, there are two raptures.

He was not talking about multiple times and seasons that Jesus would come. Good grief. You take so much scripture out of context. He was talking about the times and seasons that lead up to His one second coming.

You deny so much information to arrive at a false conclusion. He was talking about His coming in 1 Thes 4 and then in 1 Thes 5 He talks about the Day of the Lord which occurs after the gathering from heaven and earth. Both instances involve His coming, but they are not the same coming. That's why Paul says TIMES AND SEASONS.

Paul was saying that he didn't need to write to them about the times and seasons that lead up to the second coming because Jesus talked about that and they should already know about that and Paul had probably already taught them about that as well. How would Jesus coming 2 times be referred to as "times and seasons"? That's nonsense.

You seem unable to understand the difference between time and season and times and seasons. He comes more than once........times and seasons.

It's nowhere in the Bible. It's in your active imagination.

LOL. Says the guy that sees silence in heaven at the 7th vial.

Revelation 16
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Do you actually read anything I say? Your comments would suggest that you don't. I explained what it saying "The Lord Himself" means, so why don't you address what I said about that? If it was saying He comes alone at that time then how could the voice of the archangel sound at that time?

I read what you said. You appear not to understand the difference between the Lord Himself coming and the Lord sending His angels.

The Lord Himself comes for His bride before the great tribulation and takes His bride to His Father's house. The Lord sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the 6th seal. Two completely different comings.

That's not what it says! The blindness was already being removed from some who were blinded in Paul's day. Are you just ignoring that? That has continued to happen ever since and will continue to happen until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. It does NOT say that the blindness is removed after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. You are once again reading something into scripture that is not there.

Maybe you are using a different translation. Mine is KJV. It says UNTIL.

Do you just stop reading there? Continue reading from there and stop cherry picking scripture...

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

The reason I stopped is because you already posted this without posting the previous verses that shows they were blinded. They

You interpret Romans 11:9-10 as if it says that they were blinded and none of them will have their blindness removed until after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, but that is not at all what Paul was saying. Notice in verses 11-14 that Paul intended to lead some of those who were blinded to salvation and I don't doubt that he succeeded in doing so. So, why do you act as if none of those who are blinded ever have their blindness removed until after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in? You take Romans 11 completely out of context.

Just because a small portion of the Jews can see does not mean that the majority of the Jews which are "part of Israel" will not have their blindness removed when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in...............just as the scripture says.

That's NOT what that means! Good grief...

If He was coming only once Paul would have said .............of the time and season. But that's not what he said. Details...........always the details that you skip past.

So, of course, the threescore and two weeks (62 weeks) come after the first 7 weeks, so that means He is cut off some time after the end of the 69th week. What comes after 69? 70. He was cut off during the 70th week.

OK. I'm good with that.

 

[The Light]

I meant the 7th seal.


I don't care that you can't see that. I've done all I can to get you to see what I believe and you still don't get it. Whatever.

The 7th seal contains all the trumpets and vials and not just the last one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I do know the difference between tribulation and wrath.

I mean, tribulation can be wrath, but in terms of what the tribulation represents when we talk about pre-trib and post-trib, it does not mean wrath. I know that you know this, but I'm just clarifying things for whoever else might be reading our discussion.

So, anyway, why don't you understand that Jesus is talking about escaping His wrath in Luke 21:36 instead of escaping tribulation? Scripture talks about Christians having to experience "much tribulation" to enter the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22) and that all who want to live godly will experience persecution (2 Timothy 3:12), so why would we ever think that God would want us to pray to escape tribulation?

Look at what Paul wrote here...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Would you agree that Paul is talking here about God's wrath causing "sudden destruction" upon those who are in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape"? If so, why would you not understand that it is His wrath that we should pray to be worthy to escape?

The first 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows, and the fifth seal is the great tribulation. We can escape ALL THESE THINGS and stand before the Son of man.

You are taking Luke 21:36 completely out of context. Look at it closely and also take 1 Thess 5:2-3 into consideration when reading it.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

What things is Jesus saying we should pray to be worthy to escape? Not things that He said we would see to tell us that His coming is near. We won't escape those things because Jesus said we will see them and they would tell us His coming is near. He's talking about things that relate to coming upon "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". Things related to when "heaven and earth shall pass away" on "that day".

Do these sound like souls in heaven under the altar or are these people in heaven with new bodies.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Souls. Jesus has not yet descended from heaven at that point, but is about to. He descends from heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ (1 Thess 4:14). In Revelation 6:9-11 it shows the souls in heaven as being conscious, so why can't they celebrate when they find out it's time for Jesus to come and avenge their blood?

You deny so much information to arrive at a false conclusion.

I say the same to you. We've been over this multiple times already. You aren't saying anything new that I haven't already refuted before.

LOL. Says the guy that sees silence in heaven at the 7th vial.

I said I meant the 7th seal! Don't be a jerk. It was a typo. You don't need to hold it over me just because I made one typo.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I agree, and one of them is you. The only thing you said in response to me, initally... with any sort of relevancy to what I had said... was, "
Uh no. You thoughouly tortured all that for doctrine sake. Very bad to do that." No effort was made on your part to engage me in any kind of discussion, much less debate. So regarding any kind of discussion regarding my fairly brief but thorough commentary on the sequence of the events of and subsequent to the return of Christ, Rebuilder, in Post 479, there has been absolutely no debate of any kind, and you have been absolutely nothing but a troll... and absolutely devoid of grace.


But hey, yeah, again:

Grace and peace to you.

SMH.
I GET IT.
I GET IT.
WE BOTH KNOW YOUR STUPID GAMES.
unless calling you out hurts your fragile ego.
Of course it does.


Go play.
There are plenty of opportunities on the board.
I am not one of them.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The only ones "taken" in the days of Noah were the wicked... everyone except Noah and his family and the animals. The rest were... swept away in the flood. And suddenly, without warning, which was Jesus's point in Matthew 24:36-44 ~ "that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only... they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away." Noah's ark was representative of Jesus in Genesis 6-9, Who ~ in the same way Noah and his family were carried and delivered through the flood ~ carries us and delivers us through the "storm," this current age of tribulation. In the words of David:

"The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake."​

​

"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever."​

​

[Psalm 23]​

Thank you for your post, TheGospelOfChrist. It is indeed good news (to put it mildly). <smile>

Grace and peace to all..

In no way are the "wicked taken"

You totally made that up.

It says" BEFORE THE FLOOD one taken one left behind."
Jesus gives the setting of those taken as commerce, everyday life and normal activities.
You do realize you completely reframed the setting?????
Ask yourself why Jesus described the setting.
It gets worse, because Jesus is saying in both Lot and Noah that He is returning in normal life and PRE TRIB.( before the flood)

IN your model, you have one believer in a bed with a Satanist . The Satanist is taken(SMH), and the believer is left behind AT THE COMING OF THE LORD.

Then Jesus tells us to watch and be ready.
In your model ,you have believers postrib,
(keep in mind 99% of them martyred) in every imaginable activity, arm in arm with Satanists, but it is the Satanists that need to watch, because Jesus is coming for them

There is your imaginary wicked removed theory.

Let's look at it BIBLICALLY.
Jesus tells us he is coming pre flood.
Pre Sodom burned.
Pre trib ( as He put it) normal life.
He says out of a group half are taken.
( postrib completely fail in Jesus prophecy and it is just beginning)
Jesus declares that in the group of "half vs half" that they are together in activities, living together, and operating and moving, even sleeping together.
That is the group Jesus describes.
Jesus says that of that group that works, lives, and sleeps together , half are taken. DURING NORMAL ACTIVITIES. DURING NORMAL LIFE.

THEN Jesus tells THOSE TAKEN to watch and be ready.