rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Sorry
Typo on my part.
It should read "Nothing in revelation 14:14 fits the sixth seal"
The Coming Rapture
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Typo on my part.
It should read "Nothing in revelation 14:14 fits the sixth seal"
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
You don't know what you are reading.
You say the 6th seal Jesus comes in power and great glory...then the wrath.( nope nope nope)
Read what it says. Not what you insert and theorize.
IT SAYS AFTER the sixth seal the Jews are marked in their foreheads.
So.....you now have Jesus gathering the same Jews ( REV 14 ) BEFORE THEY ARE MARKED?????
It keeps getting worse for you.
Please do read Rev 6 and 7 together.
6 ends with John being shown Armageddon.
The coming on white horses post wrath, gt , or whatever you want to call the 7 yr gt
7 yr according to daniel.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Quote
"It boggles my mind that you think Jesus returning with the armies of heaven to smite the nations has anything whatsoever to do with Jesus sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Nothing in common whatsoever. Revelation 19 is Jesus coming on the Day of the Lord to Armageddon. Matthew 24 is a harvest BEFORE the wrath of God."
There it is. You laid it out.
You just proved that the strict distinction you erroneously base your ENTIRE ESCHATOLOGY on ( Jesus did not say "wrath") is flawed.
Jesus can not possibly be referring to "I am coming in power and great glory post trib and pre wrath"
You made that completely up.
Show me " power and great glory " ANYWHERE Besides Rev 19.
An honest read without the misplaced "wrath only" will change your view.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Yep
Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Wrath is the 7th seal, all the trumpets and vials are the wrath of God.
And after these things I saw................John has a new vision. Can any of this vision fall within the previous vision?
Revelation 7
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Let's read with understanding.
Looking at Revelation 7.
The 144,000 are sealed. The means they are Christians and believe. They are sealed when they believe.
What happens next? We have a great multitude in heaven. That means Jesus has come for the harvest. We see that harvest in Revelation 6 because we know that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the signs of the sun, moon and stars. So the earth is harvested in Revelation 6 and then there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7, and some come out of the great tribulation.
Those 144,000 are not sealed to go through the wrath of God, like everyone thinks. Believers are not appointed to wrath.
1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
This verse below is the hardest verse to get past to really understand Revelation. It leads us to believe that those 144,000 are sealed to go through the wrath of God. But that would be incorrect as believers are not appointed to wrath.
Revelation 9
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
When you are reading Revelation it reads like this. Revelation 1-11 are read in order. The exception is Revelation 7 which is a new vision. The sealing of the 144,000 does not take place AFTER the 6th seal, it happens earlier in the seals which we can prove and will prove in a minute.
Back to Revelation 1-11. When you are reading Revelation 11, we see the mystery of God is finished when the 7th trumpet sounds.
Revelation 11
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
We see that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon is already over. The story is done. The mystery of God is finished.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation reads like Genesis 7. In Genesis 7 we get three views of Noah loading the animals and three views of the flood. In Revelation we get 2 views of the tribulation and two views of the wrath of God. In each view of Noah loading the animals, we get additional information. And in each view of the flood, we also get additional information. The same thing happens in Revelation
Revelation 13 and 14 are additional information of what occurs in the first 6 seals. Revelation 15 is basically more information about Revelation 7 and the beginning of Revelation 8. When you are reading Revelation 16 you get additional information of the things that happen in the 7th seal which is Revelation 8-11.
Now back to revelation 14 to prove that the 144.000 are sealed BEFORE the 6th seal and not after the 6th seal.
You know what first fruits are, and they are seen in heaven in the first part of Revelation 14. In the verse below we see the great tribulation. Tribulation is when believers are killed for their faith. This is the 5th seal.
Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Conclusion: If the 144,000 are in heaven before the 5th seal which Revelation 14 shows, then the 144,000 that are sealed in John's vision have to be sealed BEFORE the sixth seal and not after it. We can conclude this because in Revelation 14 we see they are already in heaven as 1st fruits before the 5th seal.
And to top things off, Jesus returns in the clouds in Revelation 14 before the wrath of God, just as we see Him return in Revelation 6 before the wrath of God.
Those which die in the Lord, die in the great tribulation. It's not God killing them. Those which die in the wrath of God are killed by God.
Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal. Tribulation is not wrath.
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The Light
Well-Known Member
Any time Jesus shows up with His angels it's going to be in power and glory.
At the 6th seal Jesus shows up immediately after the tribulation. HE COMES FOR A HARVEST. He sends His angels to gather elect from heaven and earth.......a harvest. Do you think He is not going to show up in power and glory???????????????????
There is nothing in Revelation 19 that shows a harvest. Revelation 19 is Jesus returning for Armageddon......destruction.....vengeance......wrath.
The harvest is before the 7th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath. Jesus comes at the 6th seal for believers as they will not be on earth during the wrath of God. They will be in heaven for the marriage supper.
Revelation 14
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
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GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
The Light
Well-Known Member
No. Revelation 6 ends with the kings of the earth wanting to hide in caves because Jesus has shown up with His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. They know the wrath of God is come.
Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
That wrath will come after the 7th seal is opened which contains the trumpets and vials wrath ending with Armageddon.
As for Revelation 7, it shows the great multitude that is in heaven after Jesus comes for a harvest at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.
The coming on white horses is post wrath.
Many think it is post trib because they think that the 6th seal is the same thing as the 7th trumpet and 7th vial. This is simply because they want to take things out of order because they have been taught a crock.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Acts 1 has Jesus departing without any setting of power and great glory.
The rapture is the setting of the Acts 1 departure.
Exactly like the bible says.
Rev 19 is The only place where Jesus returns in power and great glory
Rapture and Acts 1 departure are the same setting.
Rev 14:14 has zero setting of "power and great glory""
Taken
Well-Known Member
Ya, I don’t sleeps but a few hours every night. Stay busy and we don’t watch TV.
The Light
Well-Known Member
No sir. When Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives that is the return. That event occurs AFTER Jesus returns with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19.
When Jesus returns for His Church, the Lord Himself will come. The world will not see Him............only believers.
When the Lord comes again for the second harvest which is the Jews from the earth and the Church from heaven...........Jesus will remain in the clouds. He will send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Again, I ask you. If Jesus shows up for a harvest with tens of thousands of angels, do you think He will show up WITHOUT POWER AND GLORY? It's a simple yes or no question.
Here is the 6th seal harvest. It is seen in Matthew 24.........power and glory.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
So I guess you believe when comes and all eyes see his coming, He will NOT be in power and glory. Jesus arrives in the clouds and there are thousands and thousands and thousands of angels flying and you conclude the He doesn't come in power and glory.
Then when we look in Revelation 19 which is Jesus returning with the armies of heaven.............for destruction...........and vengeance...........and wrath. Somehow you see a harvest of believers which is what happens in Matthew 24.
You are in denial of the FACTS.
Two more questions for you.
When believers are killed for their faith................do you call that the great tribulation or the wrath of God?
When God comes at Armageddon............ is that the great tribulation or the wrath of God?
Can you answer these questions?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The harvest and vengeance occur at the same time. Why do you think it has to be different events? There is no basis for believing that. Just because one passage regarding an event does not contain all the same details as another passage about that event doesn't mean they can't be about the same event. You shouldn't try to only use Revelation to understand the timing of things. You need to look at other scripture as well, so that your interpretations of verses in Revelation don't contradict other passages of scripture.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Verse 10 here will occur when the harvest/rapture that you're talking about occurs, but Paul showed that it happens on the same day that Jesus takes vengeance on His enemies. This can be seen if you properly understand 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 to be referring to one event as well. Right after we are caught up to Christ in the air He will then send down His wrath on the unbelievers left on the earth.
of course the dead in Christ are in heaven.
They return with Christ to receive their resurrected bodies.
Tribulation is the persecution of Christians.
The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.
The second coming of Christ.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
The coming of the LORD is after the great tribulation.
The Light
Well-Known Member
This is not correct. The harvest occurs at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal.
1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
What you are saying DOES NOT agree with the scripture. You say, right after we are caught up in the air, He will then send down His wrath on the unbelievers left on the earth.
Notice the scripture says that the tribulation is over first. And then the gathering from heaven and earth occurs. This is opposite of what you are saying. Therefore, what you say is not correct.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
On a sidenote, your observation that I change what I am saying sometimes is correct. When I learn something, I do not hesitate to change my beliefs. You challenged me recently when we were discussing sudden destruction. I was saying that the Day of the Lord is one year long, and the sudden destruction would occur at the end of the year at Armageddon. You wanted to know how sudden destruction could take a year. I went back and looked at all the related scriptures and realized that you were correct.
I was saying that the Day of the Lord is one-year long. I was in error. I should have said that the day of wrath or the day of vengeance is one year long. The Day of the Lord is the destruction at Armageddon when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven. It is sudden destruction. So you made me think and you were correct. Kudos.
The Light
Well-Known Member
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