The Coming Rapture

[Davy]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Satan as the coming Antichrist comes on 666. Satan also has the image of a 'man', as all... angels do, that image having originated from GOD's Own Image Likeness of Man. So don't allow fleshy Jewish traditions that falsely claim the word 'man' always means flesh to cloud your thinking by The Spirit.

6th Seal:
Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

That event of the stars of heaven falling to earth as "untimely figs" is about the time of Rev.12:7 forward when Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven by that war in heaven, and they come down to earth in OUR earthly dimension for the time of "great tribulation".

6th Trumpet:
Rev 9:11-15
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
KJV

Verse 11 mentions about Satan as that king and angel of the bottomless pit. He is who will lead that locust army loosed at the end for the time of "great tribulation" on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe Period.

Revelation 9:13 all the way to Revelation 11:13 represents that 6th TRUMPET - 2nd WOE PERIOD. (The Revelation 10 Chapter is parenthetical, to let us know that when the 7th TRUMPET blows, all Bible prophecy about this present world will be OVER.)

Rev 11:7-8
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

That above takes place during the 6TH TRUMPET - 2ND WOE TIMING. That "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" IS ABOUT SATAN HIMSELF at Jerusalem who will kill God's "two witnesses" there at the very end of this world.

6th VIAL:
Rev 16:12-14
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
KJV

That above is still 6th TRUMPET - 2ND WOE timing for the coming time of "great tribulation" at the END. That "dragon" label we were shown in Rev.12:9 is another name for Satan himself. That will be the time when he comes as the final Antichrist/false-Messiah to work the great signs, wonders, and miracles in Jerusalem that Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul warned the Church about (Matt.24:23-26; 2 Thess.2).

ALL... of those above events are set to occur just PRIOR to Christ's future coming to gather His Church and end... that time of "great tribulation".

That is what that 666 number at the end of Revelation 13 actually means. It is a direct reference to the TIME of Satan's coming at the end of this world to play GOD in Jerusalem.

 

[The Light]

That's just Ignorant.

LOL. That's trying to save face in disaster.

The events of the 6th Seal (2nd part), and the events of the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial, are all the SAME timing of Christ's future return on the "day of the Lord" to gather His Church, the LAST DAY of this world.

LOL. The Word says the tribulation if over BEFORE the stars fall from heaven.

Your whole rhetoric just blew up in your face.

The Word ALWAYS proves your claims are wrong. Which is why you always RUN.

A true man of God would turn from His ignorance.

You haven't answered my question to you about the Joel 2:31 verse. You keep dancing like a court-jester around it, and you well know why. It's because it proves what you claimed about Matthew 24:29 wrong. Here the Joel 2 Scripture is again, so you can keep trying... to READ it...

Joel 2:31
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
KJV

You instead wrongly claim Matt.24:29 means the sun is turned to darkness and the moon into blood at the time AFTER that "day of the Lord", when Matt.24:29 is actually a 'summary' of events at the end of this present world immediately PRIOR to Christ's appearing in the clouds coming to gather His saints.

Let's go through it again. Currently you are in shock, because you were shot down again.........big time. Try and process this.

Matthew 24
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The sun and moon are darkened IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION................NOT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE WRATH OF GOD.

Since the stars fall from heaven immediately after the tribulation, we have PROOF that the 6th seal is not the same as the 7th trumpet and 7th vial. So all the stuff you are yammering about if FALSE.

As to the answer to your question.

Joel 2 says the sun is darkened and the moon turns to blood before the great and terrible Day of the Lord.

We see the sun is darkened and the moon as blood at the 6th seal. The 6th seal happen BEFORE the 7th seal which contains the Day of the Lord at the 6th and 7th vial.

So you are incorrect. On a side note........you are also incorrect about the rapture of the Church before the tribulation.

 

[Davy]

LOL. That's trying to save face in disaster.

Just making up more LIES is all that mocking is. You may think it's cute, but I assure you, Christ doesn't think so, and you may learn about that soon enough.

LOL. The Word says the tribulation if over BEFORE the stars fall from heaven.

No... it does not. That's just more of your VAIN ATTEMPT to TWIST the actual Bible Scripture as written. You are simply ignorant of the meaning of the stars (angels) cast down like "untimely figs" idea given at the start of the 6th Seal. Want another example that event is for the TRIB TIME?

Dan 8:9-10
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
KJV

That idea of casting "stars" to the ground is what Satan did at his original fall, drawing a third of the stars to earth with him per Rev.12:3-4.

That above verse is TRIBULATION TIME, not AFTER... the TRIB.

 

[The Light]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:


That event of the stars of heaven falling to earth as "untimely figs" is about the time of Rev.12:7 forward when Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven by that war in heaven, and they come down to earth in OUR earthly dimension for the time of "great tribulation".

And yet the Word says the stars fall from heaven IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

6th Trumpet:
Rev 9:11-15
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
KJV

Verse 11 mentions about Satan as that king and angel of the bottomless pit. He is who will lead that locust army loosed at the end for the time of "great tribulation" on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe Period.

Error again. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The verses you are quoting occur in the 7th seal which is the wrath of God.

Revelation 9:13 all the way to Revelation 11:13 represents that 6th TRUMPET - 2nd WOE PERIOD. (The Revelation 10 Chapter is parenthetical, to let us know that when the 7th TRUMPET blows, all Bible prophecy about this present world will be OVER.)

Rev 11:7-8
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

That above takes place during the 6TH TRUMPET - 2ND WOE TIMING. That "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" IS ABOUT SATAN HIMSELF at Jerusalem who will kill God's "two witnesses" there at the very end of this world.

The two witnesses are killed during the 7th seal which is the wrath of God.

ALL... of those above events are set to occur just PRIOR to Christ's future coming to gather His Church and end... that time of "great tribulation".

The Bible I read says the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You are confusing the great tribulation which is when Christians are hunted down and killed with the Wrath of God which is Gods vengeance on unbelievers.

Tribulation over at the 6th seal. Wrath of God is the 7th seal.

 

[Davy]

And yet the Word says the stars fall from heaven IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Yet you NEVER responded to the Joel 2:31 verse that I asked you about, which reveals the sun being darkened and moon turned to blood PRIOR TO THE "DAY OF THE LORD" WHICH IS WHEN JESUS COMES...

Joel 2:30-31
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
KJV

 

[The Light]

Just making up more LIES is all that mocking is. You may think it's cute, but I assure you, Christ doesn't think so, and you may learn about that soon enough.

You should more worried about telling everyone there is no need to watch until the man of sin is revealed. He says He is coming in an hour that you think not. Don't you believe Him?

No... it does not. That's just more of your VAIN ATTEMPT to TWIST the actual Bible Scripture as written. You are simply ignorant of the meaning of the stars (angels) cast down like "untimely figs" idea given at the start of the 6th Seal. Want another example that event is for the TRIB TIME?

Dan 8:9-10
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
KJV

That idea of casting "stars" to the ground is what Satan did at his original fall, drawing a third of the stars to earth with him per Rev.12:3-4.

That above verse is TRIBULATION TIME, not AFTER... the TRIB.

Another error and false claim. You might want to read about the little horn below. Who is he stamping upon.

Dan 8:9-10
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

And if you think "casting "stars" to the ground is what Satan did at his original fall, drawing a third of the stars to earth with him per Rev.12:3-4.

That above verse is TRIBULATION TIME, not AFTER... the TRIB."

If you think the above verses occur during the great tribulation you are in error again. Study to show thyself approved.

 

[The Light]

Yet you NEVER responded to the Joel 2:31 verse that I asked you about, which reveals the sun being darkened and moon turned to blood PRIOR TO THE "DAY OF THE LORD" WHICH IS WHEN JESUS COMES...

Joel 2:30-31
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
KJV

How many times do I have to respond before you can grasp the facts.

The sun is darkened, and moon turns to blood at the 6th seal. The Day of the Lord happens in the 7th seal.

6 comes before 7. I know you don't want to use numbers because they prove you wrong, but the Lord uses numbers.

 

[Davy]

You should more worried about telling everyone there is no need to watch until the man of sin is revealed. He says He is coming in an hour that you think not. Don't you believe Him?

Another error and false claim. You might want to read about the little horn below. Who is he stamping upon.

Dan 8:9-10
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

And if you think "casting "stars" to the ground is what Satan did at his original fall, drawing a third of the stars to earth with him per Rev.12:3-4.

That above verse is TRIBULATION TIME, not AFTER... the TRIB."

If you think the above verses occur during the great tribulation you are in error again. Study to show thyself approved.

Your faith on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory has your Biblical understanding whacked. You've accepted their LIE, so it's easy for you to believe other LIES, and even come up with your own LIES against God's written Word. I feel sorry for you, and those with you who fall away to man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory, for you all are going to have a very "strong delusion" upon you that you won't recover from. (see 2 Thess.2 about the coming false one in place of God).

 

[The Light]

Your faith on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory has your Biblical understanding whacked.

I didn't learn the truth from a man. I read the Word God. And I believe the Word of God.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You've accepted their LIE, so it's easy for you to believe other LIES, and even come up with your own LIES against God's written Word. I feel sorry for you, and those with you who fall away to man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory, for you all are going to have a very "strong delusion" upon you that you won't recover from. (see 2 Thess.2 about the coming false one in place of God).

It's on you now Davy. In your heart you know you are wrong. It felt okay to change Gods order events because you felt events overrode the numbered order that God assigned to them. Now you know that the stars from heaven fall AFTER the tribulation. Therefore, your claims are in error..........and you know it.

You are a blind man Davy, that speaks against the truth. You didn't know it before, but now you know you are wrong.......according to the Word of God. It would be wise to go before our Father and ask Him to show you the truth.

 

[Davy]

I didn't learn the truth from a man. I read the Word God. And I believe the Word of God.

That's a lie, because the Pre-trib Rapture theory which you have believed is NOT written anywhere in God's Word. And it's amazing that you can even quote Matthew 24:29 while believing that false pre-trib rapture idea from men, since that Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture is about Jesus' coming AFTER the tribulation to gather His Church.

What that means is that you 'learned'... that false Pre-trib Rapture Theory from some man, and NOT from God's Word. Prior to the 1830's that Pre-trib Rapture theory wasn't even preached in the Christian Church, and Pre-trib scholars have even admitted that!

So pull my other leg and it plays Jingle Bells.

 

[The Light]

That's a lie, because the Pre-trib Rapture theory which you have believed is NOT written anywhere in God's Word.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

And it's amazing that you can even quote Matthew 24:29 while believing that false pre-trib rapture idea from men, since that Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture is about Jesus' coming AFTER the tribulation to gather His Church.

The Church is already in heaven before the tribulation..........as we can escape ALL THESE THING that come to pass, AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

What you are reading in Matthew 24 is about the gathering from heaven and earth that happens immediately after the tribulation. That occurs at the 6th seal. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are gathered from the earth in Matthew 24. That's why they sing the song of Moses in Rev 15. That's why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes as they are the first fruits of the second harvest. The fig tree has two harvests.

What that means is that you 'learned'... that false Pre-trib Rapture Theory from some man, and NOT from God's Word.

What I learned was that there is a rapture immediately after the tribulation. I thought it was the Church so I was post trib. Then I realized the fig tree has two harvests. I realized the days of Noah were not the same as the days of Lot. I learned that the trump of God which is the voice of God is not the last trump that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. I learned that the Lord Himself coming for His bride is not the same as the Lord sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. I learned that the dead in Christ rise first and the alive remain. When He comes for the alive that remain, He will bring the dead with Him, just as when He comes immediately after the tribulation He will bring the Church with Him. I've learned plenty more, but this is probably more than you can chew.

Prior to the 1830's that Pre-trib Rapture theory wasn't even preached in the Christian Church, and Pre-trib scholars have even admitted that!

You should probably do a little more research as you are in error. But let's pretend that you are correct. Bottom line there was no Nation of Israel for 1700 years and yet Darby was correct that the nation of Israel would be reborn. God kept a people to himself, with their own feasts and their own language. Most of the world was already declaring that the Church had replaced Israel. We can see that Darby was correct and the men that did not believe that God would keep His promises to Israel were incorrect.

By studying the scriptures, we can also tell that Darby is correct that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation.

So pull my other leg and it plays Jingle Bells.

And yet you charge on KNOWING that you are WRONG. Since the angels fall from heaven AFTER the tribulation, what you claim is WRONG. And you know it. I don't need to pull your other leg. You walk without understanding and that's the tune that plays.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are twisting the text to fit your doctrine. It does not say that He will receive us in His Father's house as if it says He will receive us in heaven. He said He will receive us to Himself and did not say He will receive us in heaven. Don't add to what He said! Where will He receive us? Not in heaven, but instead "the air". You can't even offer any explanation for why He would leave heaven and meet us in the air instead of meeting Him in heaven if we just end up going to heaven afterwards.

Are you that tied to your hypothesis you cannot see how silly you sound?

John 14

King James Version

​

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1. Jesus went back to heaven.
2. He is going to heaven to prepare a place for us.
3. It is in His Fathers house which is in heaven.
4. He receives us to Himself to be in the rooms in heaven He is preparing for Himself.
5. the church has homes in heaven.
6. If you place the rapture at the end of the tribulation while Jesus hits our atmosphere before He returns (no higher than 62 miles and coming down fast!) then you must have heaven coming down with him at the end of the trib instead of the end of the millennial kingdom as the bible declares!
7. Once again teh bride is declared in heaven and has made herself ready and is clothed in fine linen (the righteousness of the saints). but you have part of the church on earth who is not ready and is waiting for Jesus to come down.

As for explaining why the Lord comes to the atmosphere and meets us there? Because the bible doesn't explain why, I will not either other than to say that is what teh Lord said He will do, so He does

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What do you think you're proving by saying this? For one thing, we are not specifically told who the elders are exactly. You are just speculating. You think you're going to convince me of anything just by your speculations? Think again. Another thing is that it does not say they have their immortal bodies, so if it's referring to church people at all, why can't it be referring to their souls?

Well if they are humans then your whole hypothesis is refuted. Given that angels are never called elders but leaders of Israel and teh church are called elders tells us they are humans.

Also angels do not have crowns, nor is it even implied Jewish elders earn crowns, only members of the church. In Rev. 4 the 24 elders cast their crowns before Jesus' throne! It doesn't take rocket science to recognize these elders are members of the body of christ, the church.

That's a complete misrepresentation of what I believe. I have noticed that all Premills are not able to debate honestly and they all resort to misrepresenting what Amills believe. It's pathetic. There is NO reason whatsoever that part of the bride can't be on earth. NONE! And, just because some are on earth doesn't mean they are not prepared. That's nonsense! Are you on earth? I'm pretty sure you are. Are you prepared for Christ? I would hope so. I know I am. So, that proves that you can be on earth AND be prepared for Jesus to come at the same time. So, what you're saying here is utter nonsense.

Sorry, but that is tthe only conclusion one can draw when looking at your writings. and comparing it to Scripture.

You have the alive members of the church still on earth when Jesus makes His return. Prior to His return, the bible clearly says the bride has made herself ready and is clothed with clean white linen. Bu9t those on earth have not made themselves ready for they are still on earth and have not gone througjh the Bema judgment yet.

So ewither your hypothesis is wrong or the believers on earth are saved but not part of the church! there is no plan C.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you that tied to your hypothesis you cannot see how silly you sound?

I don't sound silly to those who know the truth. The truth is foolishness to those like you who don't rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding, but instead interpret scripture like the natural man (1 Cor 2:9-16).

John 14​

​

King James Version​

​

​

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1. Jesus went back to heaven.
2. He is going to heaven to prepare a place for us.
3. It is in His Fathers house which is in heaven.
4. He receives us to Himself to be in the rooms in heaven He is preparing for Himself.

I agree up until number 3, but this is where you start interjecting your own ideas into it. Nowhere did He say He will receive "us to Himself to be in the room in heaven He is preparing". Instead, it says he will receive us to Himself and we will then be where He is forever. He will receive us to Himself in the air, not heaven! It does not say He then takes us to heaven. So, stop twisting scripture to fit your doctrine! If we were to be taken to heaven, then He would just receive us there, not in the air. Your willingness to twist the scriptures to make them say what you want them to say is absolutely disgusting.

5. the church has homes in heaven.

Which Jesus will bring to us. Nowhere does it say that after we meet Jesus we are then taken to heaven. You are making that up.

6. If you place the rapture at the end of the tribulation while Jesus hits our atmosphere before He returns (no higher than 62 miles and coming down fast!) then you must have heaven coming down with him at the end of the trib instead of the end of the millennial kingdom as the bible declares!

LOL. Why are you so ignorant? Are you somehow not aware that I'm an Amillennialist? Those two things happen at the same time, except you must mean at the end of Satan's little season instead of at the end of the millennial kingdom since Satan's little season follows that and heaven comes down after that.

7. Once again teh bride is declared in heaven and has made herself ready and is clothed in fine linen (the righteousness of the saints). but you have part of the church on earth who is not ready and is waiting for Jesus to come down.

Again, you make things up. Nowhere does scripture say that someone can't be ready for Jesus while on the earth. Your arguments are extremely weak and you have the gall to question the legitimacy of my view?

As for explaining why the Lord comes to the atmosphere and meets us there? Because the bible doesn't explain why, I will not either other than to say that is what teh Lord said He will do, so He does

LOL. And, you end your post with yet another weak, unconvincing argument. The reason we will meet Him in the air is because He will be sending fire down on the earth when He comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night (2 Peter 3:10-12), so it obviously would not make sense to leave us on the earth while that is happening.

 

[JLB]

The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain. When the alive remain unto the coming of the Lord, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. The alive that remained will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

1 Thes 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I know this is not what is normally taught, but that is what the Word says.

Amen.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, that great multitude is the souls of the dead in Christ. Do you not believe there is a great multitude of souls of the dead in Christ in heaven?

Partially correct.

But if you read where the martyrs are kept, they are not in the main population.
They are under the altar.

so now these martyrs, the great multitude are in the general population of heaven, which points do a pre. Tribulation rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Amen.

Not scriptural.
The dead AND ALIVE are raptured.
The dead in christ are currently in heaven.
Think about it.
How do the spirit bodies already in heaven reunite with the resurrected bodies ( the dead in christ rising from graves)?
Ahem....he brings them with him in the pretrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yet the 7th Seal SAYS NOTHING about the "day of the Lord"! (Even though I agree Christ's coming has happened by the time of that 7th Seal of Rev.8).

Nevertheless, you still did not address the Joel 2:31 verse, because it goes against what you said about the sun being darkened and the moon turned to blood being for AFTER... the tribulation, and you used the Matthew 24:29 verse against it. So let's go over that again...

And all the below verse section goes together, which is about Christ's future coming to gather His Church "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Per Rev.16:15, Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and that's a link to the "day of the Lord" which both Apostles Paul and Peter said will come "as a thief in the night", with a "sudden destruction" event by God's "consuming fire" burning man's works off this earth.

THAT... is given in 'other' Bible Scripture, just as that Matt.24 section includes other... Scripture like in Revelation where MORE DETAIL is given. And I showed you about the 1st Part of the 6th Seal when Satan and his angels are booted out of heaven down to earth with the idea of the stars falling as untimely figs, and that amount of time of that is the actual time of "great tribulation" before Jesus comes. So now, because of Rev.6 Scripture about that 1st Part of the 6th Seal, it requires understanding the time for Satan and angels to get booted down to earth (per Rev.12:7 forward), and persecute the symbolic 'woman' that keeps God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

In other words, we CANNOT just pull out ONE VERSE and apply whatever time WE THINK to it. We MUST... cover ALL relevant Scripture given AFTER it also, which is why Lord Jesus gave us His Book of Revelation! It contains further DETAILS of prophecies He gave in The Four Gospel Books!

There is only one place where Jesus comes in power and great glory. And that is revelation nineteen, which is after the tribulation, or the wrath ( whatever you want to call the 7 yr gt) , when Jesus comes in power as a Warrior to destroy the Antichrist, And his army.
that is the only place. Jesus comes in power and great glory.

Pretrib rapture
Jesus taught it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. God made rapture at the 6th seal. Here it is. How do you not understand that the signs of the sun, moon and stars tell you that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. I don't know how I can possibly make this any clearer.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

There is only one place where Jesus comes in power and great glory. And that is revelation nineteen, which is after the tribulation, or the wrath ( whatever you want to call the 7 yr gt) , when Jesus comes in power as a Warrior to destroy the Antichrist, And his army.
that is the only place. Jesus comes in power and great glory.

 

[Davidpt]

Ahem....he brings them with him in the pretrib rapture.

You mean the same pretribbers that are raptured in the mortal bodies they are in at the time, then remain in those same mortal bodies until the time of the last trump some years later?

No one is changed from a mortal body to an immortal body until the last trump. Which then means every single person still physically alive, whether they be physically alive on the earth, or whether they be pretribbers physically alive with Jesus in heaven, without exception then, are in and remain in mortal bodies in the meantime. If you see it making sense, dwelling in heaven in a mortal body, I don't know what to tell you in that case since it is not possible to reason with anyone unwilling to be reasonable. But if you think you will be in an immortal body instead, how do you assume that's going to happen when it can't even happen until the last trump sounds first?