The Coming Rapture
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The Light
Well-Known Member
You seem incapable of comprehending I have already answered. Here it is again.
The sun and moon are darkened in the 6th seal which is BEFORE the Day of the Lord which is in the 7th seal.
See how numbers work. 6 comes BEFORE 7.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yet the 7th Seal SAYS NOTHING about the "day of the Lord"! (Even though I agree Christ's coming has happened by the time of that 7th Seal of Rev.8).
Nevertheless, you still did not address the Joel 2:31 verse, because it goes against what you said about the sun being darkened and the moon turned to blood being for AFTER... the tribulation, and you used the Matthew 24:29 verse against it. So let's go over that again...
And all the below verse section goes together, which is about Christ's future coming to gather His Church "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."...
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Per Rev.16:15, Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and that's a link to the "day of the Lord" which both Apostles Paul and Peter said will come "as a thief in the night", with a "sudden destruction" event by God's "consuming fire" burning man's works off this earth.
THAT... is given in 'other' Bible Scripture, just as that Matt.24 section includes other... Scripture like in Revelation where MORE DETAIL is given. And I showed you about the 1st Part of the 6th Seal when Satan and his angels are booted out of heaven down to earth with the idea of the stars falling as untimely figs, and that amount of time of that is the actual time of "great tribulation" before Jesus comes. So now, because of Rev.6 Scripture about that 1st Part of the 6th Seal, it requires understanding the time for Satan and angels to get booted down to earth (per Rev.12:7 forward), and persecute the symbolic 'woman' that keeps God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.
In other words, we CANNOT just pull out ONE VERSE and apply whatever time WE THINK to it. We MUST... cover ALL relevant Scripture given AFTER it also, which is why Lord Jesus gave us His Book of Revelation! It contains further DETAILS of prophecies He gave in The Four Gospel Books!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No it doesn't, but the Bible says He comes to receive us to HImself and in HIs Fathers house! We know that the New Jerusalem comes down after the millennial kingdom, and after all lost are cast into the lake of fire.
Yeah I know you deny we will go bodily into heaven. YOu are a post trib rapturist.
YOu have a serious problem in your eschatology!
1. the 24 elders are in heaven before the throne! At least 12 of these are church people.
2. The bride is found in heaven before Jesus returns and teh bride has made herself ready and is closed in fine linen! But you have a part of the bride still on earth and not prepared and clothed in fine linen.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Believers on earth are not part of the bride! Just like OT believers are not part of the bride. They are guests for the wedding feast which takes place on the millennial earth!
And the text says His wife has made herself ready- that means all the wife is ready. Feigning ignorance of the english language is not a good look for you. For if part of the wife is on earth, she could still sin and has not been made ready, she has not gone through the bema seat judgment, had her works judged and given her white robes. His wife- means His whole wife. It is you who is taking away from the text.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The 6th and 7th vial happen within the 7th seal.
Why do you keep acting like you were not answered.
Christs future coming DOES happen IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. It occurs at the 6th seal based on the signs of the sun, moon and stars.
The verses do not say that the wrath of God is over at the 6th seal. The verses say that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Tribulation is referring to the great tribulation when Christians are killed for their belief. That is over at the 6th seal.
The 7th seal is the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the trumpets and vials. For some reason, I am not sure you understand that.
Yes and the 6th and 7th vial occur in the 7th seal.
You have major problem you won't be able to address. The word says that IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation the stars fall from heaven.
So the tribulation is over BEFORE the stars fall from heaven. That just completely shoots down everything you are claiming.
Pack your bags, game, set, match.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
That is the seed of the woman which are those of the 12 tribes across the earth who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The tribulation is over before the stars fall from heaven. Game, Set, Match
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well then let me define myself in the study of eschatology. I am a pre- mil, pre-trib, believer in the rapture. I am a dispensationalist who is a literalist. the church ends at the rapture and all saints saved after teh rapture are not part of the body of Christ just like OT saints are not either.
Our home is in the new Jerusalem which exists now and which Jesus is preparing rooms for us. when the Father says it is time, then He will descend to the atmosphere and snatch us up and take us to heaven. When there the church will go through the Bema seat judgment and have our works either reward or burnt.
Thje millennial earth will be co reigned by Israel, the Apostles and teh saints who were beheaded during the trib for not taking the mark.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
The 2 purposes of the 7 year tribulation is to :
1. Prepare Israel as a nation to receive Jesus as Messiah
and
2. Punish unbelievers for defiling the earth.
Thje church is promised to be delivered from this wrath.
Davy
Well-Known Member
The Light
Well-Known Member
There we go. Finally, time to run. I'll give you this, you hung awhile and took your beating. Usually, you run off promptly because you know scripture is going to prove you wrong. You danced around for a while before you finally painted yourself into a corner that you have no answer for.
Just remember...........The tribulation is over BEFORE the stars fall from heaven. That completely shoots down everything you are claiming.
GAME, SET, MATCH.
Run Davy, Run.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Touché!
I admit I didn't read the whole thing at first, and after reading the whole thing the second time I saw my mistake. My apology.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You are twisting the text to fit your doctrine. It does not say that He will receive us in His Father's house as if it says He will receive us in heaven. He said He will receive us to Himself and did not say He will receive us in heaven. Don't add to what He said! Where will He receive us? Not in heaven, but instead "the air". You can't even offer any explanation for why He would leave heaven and meet us in the air instead of meeting Him in heaven if we just end up going to heaven afterwards.
Obviously.
No, I don't. And you certainly are doing nothing to refute it.
What do you think you're proving by saying this? For one thing, we are not specifically told who the elders are exactly. You are just speculating. You think you're going to convince me of anything just by your speculations? Think again. Another thing is that it does not say they have their immortal bodies, so if it's referring to church people at all, why can't it be referring to their souls?
That's a complete misrepresentation of what I believe. I have noticed that all Premills are not able to debate honestly and they all resort to misrepresenting what Amills believe. It's pathetic. There is NO reason whatsoever that part of the bride can't be on earth. NONE! And, just because some are on earth doesn't mean they are not prepared. That's nonsense! Are you on earth? I'm pretty sure you are. Are you prepared for Christ? I would hope so. I know I am. So, that proves that you can be on earth AND be prepared for Jesus to come at the same time. So, what you're saying here is utter nonsense.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
No man has 100% revelation, nor is it God's protocol to give it to one man.
Rev 14:14 isn't going away.
It is not, nor can it possibly be the main rapture of the church.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nonsense. This is your lame excuse for not accepting what Paul taught. Paul was giving revelation by the Holy Spirit. The NT authors did have 100% revelation of the things that we talk about on this forum which is why they are the ones who wrote NT scripture and not us or anyone else.
Why not? All you do is make claims and never back them up with coherent arguments using scripture. Why do you think that should be taken seriously?
The Light
Well-Known Member
Correct. It is not the rapture of the Church. It is the second coming and the harvest of the twelve tribes across the earth.....the seed of the woman, Israel. It is the gathering from heaven and earth when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect. Jesus remains in the clouds and all return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 and Revelation 19
Davy
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, that great multitude is the souls of the dead in Christ. Do you not believe there is a great multitude of souls of the dead in Christ in heaven?
Davy
Well-Known Member
The events of the 6th Seal (2nd part), and the events of the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial, are all the SAME timing of Christ's future return on the "day of the Lord" to gather His Church, the LAST DAY of this world.
You haven't answered my question to you about the Joel 2:31 verse. You keep dancing like a court-jester around it, and you well know why. It's because it proves what you claimed about Matthew 24:29 wrong. Here the Joel 2 Scripture is again, so you can keep trying... to READ it...
Joel 2:31
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
KJV
You instead wrongly claim Matt.24:29 means the sun is turned to darkness and the moon into blood at the time AFTER that "day of the Lord", when Matt.24:29 is actually a 'summary' of events at the end of this present world immediately PRIOR to Christ's appearing in the clouds coming to gather His saints.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Now you are wrongly trying to ADD OTHER EVENTS to the 6th Seal which are NOT written there in Revelation 6.
The 6th Seal events agree with what I have said...
Rev 6:12-14
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Look at that above, that's the sun being darkened and the moon turned to blood just PRIOR... to Christ's coming. And understanding the next verse properly ought to make understanding that point easy!
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
That stars of heaven falling to earth as "untimely figs" is about Satan and his angels being booted out of heaven by Archangel Michael per the war in heaven of Revelation 12:7 forward. That is for latter 1260 days period of the Book of Daniel, because Rev.12:14 mentions that "time, and times, and half a time" representing the latter 1260 days.
Thus Christ's coming is NOT right at this point of Rev.6:12-13. And this PROVES the Joel 2:31 verse that the sun darkened and the moon turned to blood happens JUST PRIOR to Christ's coming, and not after the trib. It means your are NOT understanding the Matt.24:29 events.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
KJV
Starting at that Rev.6:14 verse IS... the "day of the Lord" timing, so the sun had already been darkened and the moon turned to blood PRIOR to this event along with the Christ's coming in the next Rev.6:15-17 verses because the Scripture points out it is the time of HIS WRATH, which ALIGNS WITH THE 7TH VIAL being poured out with GOD's cup of WRATH.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Good point. He, of course, won't acknowledge it, but that Joel 2:31 verse does refute his belief that Matthew 24:29 will occur AFTER the day of the Lord and says indicate it will occur BEFORE the day of the Lord instead. What is described in Matthew 24:29 will not happen long before the day of the Lord comes at all, but certainly not after the day of the Lord comes, according to Joel 2:31.
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