The Coming Rapture

[ewq1938]

LOL. Maybe one of these days you will come to find out that the Great Tribulation that is brought against believers is not the same thing as the wrath of God that is brought against unbelievers.

Most people already understand that. It's simplistic so this is a strawman fallacy.

 

[The Light]

Most people already understand that. It's simplistic so this is a strawman fallacy.

That's just it. It's so simple.

The Word says the tribulation is over at the sixth seal. The tribulation is when believers are killed for their faith.

Then you say that the 6th seal is the 7th vial. It's totally illogical.

The Word says that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the kings of the earth realize wrath is come. They are hiding in the caves.

The seventh seal is the wrath of God. And you think the wrath of God is 30 minutes of silence. It's just mind blowing. All those trumpets and vials being blown and poured out on the world, and you don't even see it is the wrath of God which is the 7th seal.

It's all so simple. The tribulation is over at the sixth seal and the wrath of God is the 7th seal.

And you think when God unleashes His wrath and vengeance on the world................. He will be silent for 30 minutes. You can't grasp how silly this is? It's so simple. Just get out of the way and read what it says.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You just made a case for the literal mil.
Thanks

 

[rebuilder 454]

That's just it. It's so simple.

The Word says the tribulation is over at the sixth seal. The tribulation is when believers are killed for their faith.

Then you say that the 6th seal is the 7th vial. It's totally illogical.

The Word says that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the kings of the earth realize wrath is come. They are hiding in the caves.

The seventh seal is the wrath of God. And you think the wrath of God is 30 minutes of silence. It's just mind blowing. All those trumpets and vials being blown and poured out on the world, and you don't even see it is the wrath of God which is the 7th seal.

It's all so simple. The tribulation is over at the sixth seal and the wrath of God is the 7th seal.

And you think when God unleashes His wrath and vengeance on the world................. He will be silent for 30 minutes. You can't grasp how silly this is? It's so simple. Just get out of the way and read what it says.

Read Rev 19 and reconcile it to your timeline.
Read Rev 14:14, the harvest AFTER JEWISH FIRSTFRUITS, and wonder how that CAN NOT be the second coming.

 

[rebuilder 454]

As this Prophecy is very clearly for when Jesus Returns, then where He is, will be on earth - in Jerusalem.

Rev 19 does not say who exactly those people are. We know that from Revelation 6:9-11, they are the souls of the martyrs.
So; the way to get to heaven is to be martyred for your faith. And you would be lucky to just have a quick chop off the head!

Rapture believers do not seem to realize how their belief is a contradiction of scripture.
Jesus said we Christians must stay strong in our faith and endure until the end. when He Returns.

Paradise was moved to heaven 2000 years ago.
All patrirchs are walking around in heaven as we speak.
Martyrs are there as you pointed out.
So yes heaven is populated with millions of people right now.
They do not have glorifies bodies.
But soon will

 

[The Light]

No, it is what the scripture says:

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Have you ever even read this verse before?

Yes I've seen that verse. So you think that the 7th seal is silence in heaven. Why do you stop reading after one verse? Those 7 angels are getting ready to sound. Do you stop reading after one verse on all the seals? I doubt it, but maybe you do.

How can you possibly think that the wrath of God is silence in heaven?

Revelation 8
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is a rapture at the 6th seal as shown below.

Here is the 6th seal being opened. The sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Here are the sun and moon darkened and the stars falling from heaven in Matthew 24 occurring at the 6th seal. Note that Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This is a rapture and it occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The dead are judged after the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. But this is not a rapture.


I was looking in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians to try and find where Paul would clarify what the last trump was. Couldn't find anything but since John didn't write Revelation until somewhere around 95AD it must have been quite confusing to the believers.

Do you think Paul said something like this..................I know there has been a lot of confusion regarding the last trump. Everyone keeps asking when the last trump will occur. John will get a revelation in the future and clear all this up. In the meantime quit asking this question.

Or was there no confusion because the Jews all knew when the last trump was. It is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

This is incorrect. Both the trumpet and vial judgements occur during the 7th seal wrath of God. At the 7th trumpet, the mystery of God is finished. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means that Armageddon has already happened.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ has already returned and set up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet. The trumpets and vials occur in the same timeframe which is the 7th seal.


Oh, I'm in context. We are not appointed to wrath. Other than the two witnesses' believers will not be on the earth when the wrath of God occurs.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

At the 6th seal the tribulation is over. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. If God does not shorten the great tribulation, there would be no flesh that is raptured alive unto salvation. All that are saved would come out of the grave.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



Is scripture fantasy? I believe what is written, and that is that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS and stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Would it be ignorant to not understand that when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord at the 7th trumpet, Armageddon has already happened.

The trumpets and vials of wrath occur in the 7th seal. You are not understanding what you are reading.


It doesn't need to be any clearer. Unless you don't understand that when the 7th trumpet sounds, Armageddon has already occurred.

For some reason you haven't figured out that the vials of wrath occur in the 7th seal. The 7th trumpet sounds, and the mystery of God is finished. There will be no more vials of wrath. They have already been poured out.

No
You made a rapture at the sixth seal.
Those verses are erroneously interpreted by you to fit a strict use of "trib vs wrath, and we can not blend the 2".
....when they are blended in scripture.
The bible is not "one dimensional", as you are interpreting it.
For example, look at the different teachings on "Spirit Soul and Body".

The body part is easy, but there are places where there is a CLEAR OVERLAP.
....and places where "soul" is better translated "spirit".
You model has Jesus returning BEFORE ARMAGEDDON.
Rev 19 has Jesus returning and IMMEDIATELY ENDING Armageddon.
Too many holes in that model, and verses that can not be reconciled.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes I've seen that verse. So you think that the 7th seal is silence in heaven. Why do you stop reading after one verse? Those 7 angels are getting ready to sound. Do you stop reading after one verse on all the seals? I doubt it, but maybe you do.

How can you possibly think that the wrath of God is silence in heaven?

Revelation 8
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

JESUS is on the earth as the second coming WHILE the wrath of God is poured out?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I asked for scriptural proof...not conjecture from a metaphoric passage. This has nothing to do with the rapture.

I agree...it is the second coming when the rapture also occurs.

Is the same event as the 7th and last trumpet making it the rapture of the church. You have failed to prove other wise

No wherein scripture are there two raptures. All references refer to the same event.

That's a question you need to ask yourself. Are you looking for truth or just some convoluted justification for a pre trib rapture myth

No problem

Quote
"" no wherein scripture are there two raptures. All references refer to the same even"

Rev 14 :14 is not 1thes 4, nor can it possibly be.

So yes there are 2 raptures as the bible declares.

 

[The Light]

Read Rev 19 and reconcile it to your timeline.
Read Rev 14:14, the harvest AFTER JEWISH FIRSTFRUITS, and wonder how that CAN NOT be the second coming.

IT IS THE SECOND COMING.

Revelation 14:14 occurs at the 6th seal. It is the second coming. Jesus REMAINS IN THE CLOUDS. All eyes see the coming of the Lord in power and glory. But He does come and set His feet on the earth. He comes for a harvest. All return to heaven for the marriage supper.

The unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God which is the 7th seal.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Here is the Great Tribulation which is the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seals.

 

[The Light]

JESUS is on the earth as the second coming WHILE the wrath of God is poured out?

No. In Revelation 14:14 which is the second coming, Jesus remains in the clouds. This is the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal. After this harvest, all return heaven for the marriage supper. While the Church and those that came out of great tribulation are in heaven, the 7th seal wrath of God is poured out.

After the marriage supper, Jesus returns to earth with the armies of heaven....Revelation 19. This is when Armageddon occurs. Afterward Jesus sets His feet on the mount of Olives which is the second advent.

 

[The Light]

Quote
"" no wherein scripture are there two raptures. All references refer to the same even"

Rev 14 :14 is not 1thes 4, nor can it possibly be.

So yes there are 2 raptures as the bible declares.

This is correct. Rev 14:14 is not 1 Thes 4, when the Lord himself comes for the Church. Revelation 14:14 is the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal. It is the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God.............1 Corinthians 15:52

And yes, there are two raptures according to the Word of God.

 

[The Light]

No
You made a rapture at the sixth seal.
Those verses are erroneously interpreted by you to fit a strict use of "trib vs wrath, and we can not blend the 2".
....when they are blended in scripture.
The bible is not "one dimensional", as you are interpreting it.
For example, look at the different teachings on "Spirit Soul and Body".

The body part is easy, but there are places where there is a CLEAR OVERLAP.
....and places where "soul" is better translated "spirit".
You model has Jesus returning BEFORE ARMAGEDDON.
Rev 19 has Jesus returning and IMMEDIATELY ENDING Armageddon.
Too many holes in that model, and verses that can not be reconciled.

Let me ask a couple of questions.

When Jesus returns for the Church is it a secret rapture?

When Jesus returns for the Jews is it a secret rapture? Or are the kings of the earth and rich men saying to mountains fall on us and hide us from the one that sits on the throne.

 

[JLB]

The rapture (snatching away to heaven) is coming. Who will be ready? In a time when the whole world (including Christendom) is deceived by the Devil, will we seek the Lord and wash our robes in the Blood of the Lamb now, by choice; or will we delay this until the Great Tribulation compels us to, if at all?

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15


The rapture and resurrection occur at His coming; The Second coming of Christ.

 

[The Light]

No
You made a rapture at the sixth seal.
Those verses are erroneously interpreted by you to fit a strict use of "trib vs wrath, and we can not blend the 2".

No. God made rapture at the 6th seal. Here it is. How do you not understand that the signs of the sun, moon and stars tell you that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. I don't know how I can possibly make this any clearer.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

[The Light]

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15


The rapture and resurrection occur at His coming; The Second coming of Christ.

Sorry. The second coming is when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. That does not happen in 1 Thes 4. It happens at the 6th seal.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I didn't say that at all. What did I say to lead you to ask that ridiculous question?

Well you said that we as the church do not go to heaven. Jesus clearly returned to heaven. He is preparing a place for us in heaven.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The souls of the dead in Christ. They will come with Jesus at His second coming, unite with their resurrected, changed bodies and be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet Jesus in the air.

The souls of the dead in Christ. They will come with Jesus at His second coming, unite with their resurrected, changed bodies and be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet Jesus in the ai

So if the the people in Rev. 19 are the souls of Christians, you have a problem.

It says the bride (which is the whole body of Christ) has made herself ready in heaven and is clothed in fine linen. If there are Christians still on earth struggling in the trib, the bride is not complete to be made ready!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where did I say anything to indicate that I don't believe the soul and spirit of a believer go to heaven when the body dies? Nowhere. You have a reading comprehension problem.

No, just trying to understand how you comprehend the Bible.

But I think I get it now.

The souls and spirits of Christians go to be with Jesus when they die. You believe in a post trib rapture where as Jesus is in the atmosphere at the end of the trib to fight the battle of Armegeddon,, he reunites the bodies of the dead and the remaining cxhristians right before the battle of Armeggedon takes place are caught up moments before Jesus sets foot back on earth.

WOW!

 

[JLB]

Sorry. The second coming is when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. That does not happen in 1 Thes 4. It happens at the 6th seal.

If you read 1 Thessalonians 4:15 you will see the coming of the Lord.

It’s undeniable.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

The two things mentioned are:

1. we who are alive and remain - The Rapture
2. those who are asleep. - The Ressurrection of the dead in Christ.

First is the ressurrection of the dead in Christ.


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:16



The third thing to happen at the coming of the Lord is the destruction of the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8


At His Coming, the Lord will destroy the antichrist.
The Lord will gather His people at the Resurrection and Rapture.

• But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24