The Coming Great Apostasy

[Lady Crosstalk]

What you are speaking, is all their religious, regurgitated false doctrine, from the "scholarly learned" of "church-ianity".
We ARE NOT to be " guided" by them and their religious commentators! We are to be guided by His Holy Spirt, who shall guide us INTO ALL truth. John 16:13. See also Isa. 55:8-9.
Don't forget, that among the Wheat, are the Tares!!
They look christian and sound christian, but they are "none of His" Rom. 8:9.
Not all men have the Holy Spirit of God, and many of those who do not are IN CHURCH leadership positions, appearing as servants of the Lord.

The Holy Spirit speaks most distinctly through the Word that He inspired. He also teaches through reiterating truths several times with different nuances. We are tasked with "rightly dividing the word of truth". The Holy Spirit does NOT contradict Himself. If two Christians cannot agree on the meaning of a passage, then one or both of them are not "rightly dividing."

 

[farouk]

The Holy Spirit speaks most distinctly through the Word that He inspired. He also teaches through reiterating truths several times with different nuances. We are tasked with "rightly dividing the word of truth". The Holy Spirit does NOT contradict Himself. If two Christians cannot agree on the meaning of a passage, then one or both of them are not "rightly dividing."

Soooo much in North American church life would be different if believers truly followed the Holy Spirit's guidance in the Word.

 

[farouk]

Then who is the "man of sin" and the "son of perdition"? I understand that there is a "spirit of antichrist". It is quite obviously abroad today and has been since Jesus' advent. But there is the matter of the "little horn" of Daniel 7:8 ("horns" are seen as symbols of kingdoms or kings). Also see the end-time Ten Kings of the Book of Revelation. That "horn" of Daniel's vision has always been seen as a human being. He "has a mouth to arrogantly boast". Since this little horn rises up during the terrible time of the Fourth Beast (which has not yet occurred)--we are talking of a real Antichrist figure. Satan always tries to imitate whatever God does.

John's First Epistle speaks of 'antichrists' (plural), indicating that they may be many which precede the one coming Antichrist.

 

[Earburner]

I misunderstand that Jesus said He didn't lose anyone "except the son of perdition"? Sounds like He lost someone that was previously not lost, and I'm sure Judas had noble intentions at first and wanted to follow Jesus, but his carnal nature got the best of him.

Yes! And that is the difference for us all. "many are called, but few chosen"
The gospel is for all people, and many hear it, but only few commit to Jesus through faith, and ask for Him to be their Savior, and receive the gift of His Holy Spirit.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Lady Crosstalk said: ↑
Judas is an interesting case. Just before he "went out into the night" (a word picture) it was said that "Satan entered him". Since the Holy Spirit does not inhabit the same space with evil spirits, it is unlikely that Judas was ever truly a believer. We have clues throughout the NT that he was not.
> Peter didn't have the Holy Spirit at that time either!
How was he saved and Judas was not?
I just recently explained. See Rom. 8:9

They had the Holy Spirit WITH them at that point--later they had Him IN them. (see John 14:17) They were certainly saved at the time of Jesus' High Priestly prayer in John 17.

 

[farouk]

They had the Holy Spirit WITH them at that point--later they had Him IN them. (see John 14:17) They were certainly saved at the time of Jesus' High Priestly prayer in John 17.

Pentecost at the church's birthday certainly makes a lot of doctrinal difference to an understanding of how the Gospel now goes forth.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

John's First Epistle speaks of 'antichrists' (plural), indicating that they may be many which precede the one coming Antichrist.

Yes. Since Satan is not omniscient, he must have to have a candidate for Antichrist at all times. Of course there is no shortage of evil men (and women).

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The beasts in Daniel are spoken of in the masculine gender also, and they were empires. Dan. 8:21. That's your clue! Empires are masculine and never feminine.
Again, there is NO "THE" Antichrist to come.
The False Prophet is the 2H lamb like beast, which is the USA (Empire) Rev. 13:11.
Yes, the 10 horns on the 4th beast in Dan. are the 10 horns of the beast in Rev., and they will be in the very end, as the 10 countries of Europe.
The 4th Beast of the Roman Empire dispersed into Europe. The 10 horns shall be revealed in the very end, just before Christ returns. They are also symbolized as the 10 toes of iron/clay in Dan. 2:41-45.
All of that kingdom of the 4th beast has been a progression of evolving and transforming down through the years. WE ARE in the period of the ten toes.

They were, in my opinion, beast systems but they were symbolized by fantastical creatures--therefore, appropriate to use the pronoun "he".

 

[Phoneman777]

No where in the bible does it say the heavenly sanctuary needs cleaning. No where.

Here is where:

Hebrews 8:5 - "...as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount."


Hebrews 9:23 - "[It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."​

 

[Phoneman777]

Let's get beyond grammar punctuation, shall we!

LOL, really, I'm not offended. If Christians can't discuss hot button issues without becoming indignant, then we have more to be concerned with about our faith than who the Antichrist is or whether a pre-trib rapture will spare us from the Mark.

 

[Phoneman777]

The word "waxed" in the Strong's KJV is "behave(d) of self" . See #1980. In that verse it reads "waxed exceeding great".
IOWS, he behaved himself to exceed greatness.
Which is to also say, that Antiochus Epiphanes desired to exceed greatness.
Please notice that the word is NOT "exceedingly".

Strong's H3498:
יָתַר yâthar, yaw-thar'; a primitive root; to jut over or exceed; by implication, to excel; (intransitively) to remain or be left; causatively to leave, cause to abound, preserve:—excel, leave (a remnant), left behind, too much, make plenteous, preserve, (be, let) remain(-der, -ing, -nant), reserve, residue, rest.

Daniel doesn't say the Little Horn "aspired" or "sought" to be exceeding great - it says he achieved exceeding great status.

 

[Earburner]

1. John's First Epistle speaks of 'antichrists' (plural), indicating that they may be many
2. which precede the one coming Antichrist.

Absolutely correct on the first part, but off course on the second.
If all are physically born as "the natural man" , how is it that you don't see that plurality in "that man of sin, the son of perdition"? Was Judas Iscariot the only one who was of " that spirit of antichrist"?
I should say not! As 1 John says, there are many!

If the context of 2 Thes. 2 is in the plural, so also should it be so in the words "that wicked".
So, why is it that it's not?
Ans.
Did you know that the Strong's (KJV) does not list the word "that", but rather " the". So therefore, it legitimately SHOULD be read as "the wicked" , which CAN be read in the plural.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

He certainly wasn't performing miracles by the power of Satan alongside of them that had the Holy Spirit, right? Jesus said He didn't lose anyone "except" the one He lost: Judas. That means he was at one time not lost, right?

Judas obviously never came to faith--therefore he was already lost (those who do not believe in Jesus are already condemned--i.e. already "lost")--we are all lost until we are found in Him. None of the other disciples stayed lost. We have no evidence that Judas ever performed any miracles. There WAS at least one time when the disciples were unable to cast out a demon and especially in the Matthew narrative, we see that Jesus is exasperated with their lack of faith. (see Mark 9:19 and Matthew 17:17-20)

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes! And that is the difference for us all. "many are called, but few chosen"
The gospel is for all people, and many hear it, but only few commit to Jesus through faith, and ask for Him to be their Savior, and receive the gift of His Holy Spirit.

When Paul identifies the characteristics of the "man of God", he speaks not of a single man, but of many Christian men who may be seen to be such by those characteristics.

Likewise, when he speaks of the "man of sin", the son of perdition", we know what characteristics to look for to identify the blasphemous system over which many wicked men will arise and control. The characteristics of Judas perfectly match the characteristics which describe the rise of the papacy within Christianity.

 

[Earburner]

Strong's H3498:
יָתַר yâthar, yaw-thar'; a primitive root; to jut over or exceed; by implication, to excel; (intransitively) to remain or be left; causatively to leave, cause to abound, preserve:—excel, leave (a remnant), left behind, too much, make plenteous, preserve, (be, let) remain(-der, -ing, -nant), reserve, residue, rest.

Daniel doesn't say the Little Horn "aspired" or "sought" to be exceeding great - it says he achieved exceeding great status.

The word "wax" in the English language also means "to increase in strength"- "to wax and wane"- Antiochus desired to increase in strength, to the point of "exceeding (beyond) great"

 

[Earburner]

When Paul identifies the characteristics of the "man of God", he speaks not of a single man, but of every Christian man may be seen to be such by those characteristics.

Likewise, when he speaks of the "man of sin", we can know what characteristics to look for to identify the blasphemous system upon which wicked men will arise and control. The characteristics of Judas perfectly match the characteristics which describe the rise of the papacy within Christianity.

It's WAY BEYOND the papacy etc.
Listen- every person who hath NOT the Holy Spirit of God, IS none of His. Rom. 8:9
Therefore, for all who do NOT HAVE the Holy Spirit, they " remain" to be "the natural man" , "that man of sin, the son of perdition (destruction is their reward).
See John 3:18 about who is condemned and who is not, and why!

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The KJV is loaded with errors been written in archaic English. Cults and false doctrines love it
The cause is so difficult to understand and they can spin the meaning to whatever they want and become the arbitrators of what the bible says.

The NIV and NASB are superior in accuracy and readability.

They really messed up the NIV with the most recent edition. You have to go to the previous edition to get the better one. The old NIV is especially good at translating the Hebrew from the OT. I have a Jewish-Christian friend who says that the NIV reads the most like the Hebrew. I agree that the NASB is the best Greek to English translation--or so my Greek Cypriot friend says. But, for narrative flow, you would need to go to a "dynamic" translation, like the NLT.

 

[Phoneman777]

Judas obviously never came to faith--therefore he was already lost (those who do not believe in Jesus are already condemned--i.e. already "lost")--we are all lost until we are found in Him. None of the other disciples stayed lost. We have no evidence that Judas ever performed any miracles. There WAS at least one time when the disciples were unable to cast out a demon and especially in the Matthew narrative, we see that Jesus is exasperated with their lack of faith. (see Mark 9:19 and Matthew 17:17-20)

Nevertheless, he arose from within and worked against the authority of Jesus within the church, which makes him a perfect example of what we should look for in history's rise of the "man of sin, the son of perdition". The Bible is somewhat silent as to if he ever made a full conversion, except that he was described along with the other disciples as doing things possible by only the power and spirit of God, which makes me lean towards the idea that he was at one time converted.

 

[Phoneman777]

The word "wax" in the English language also means "to increase in strength"- "to wax and wane"- Antiochus desired to increase in strength, to the point of "exceeding (beyond) great"

To "wax" means to "grow", so if someone says a tree "grew" 10 feet tall, it doesn't mean it started growing and stretched its limbs to gather as much sunlight as possible but only reached 6 feet -- it means the thing achieved 10 feet, right or wrong?

The little horn "waxed" (or "grew") to the height of "exceeding great", as much as that tree achieved 10 feet.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The Bible is somewhat silent as to if he ever made a full conversion, except that he was described along with the other disciples as doing things possible by only the power and spirit of God, which makes me lean towards the idea that he was at one time converted.

Book, chapter and verse, please. Interestingly, Judas is never recorded as calling Jesus "Lord" like the other disciples. He seems to refer to Jesus as, "rabbi".

The gospel of John tells us that Judas used to steal money from the purse with which he was entrusted. His corrupt nature was evident at various points in the NT.