The Coming Great Apostasy

[Lady Crosstalk]

There's all kinds of error floating around among Christians. Probably wise to point it out rather than to demonize any particular group of believers.

 

[Dave L]

There's all kinds of error floating around among Christians. Probably wise to point it out rather than to demonize any particular group of believers.

Mainline churches do not fit the profile of those whom Christ never knew. Charismatics and especially Oneness Pentecostals do.

 

[bbyrd009]

Mainline churches do not fit the profile of those whom Christ never knew.

narf

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Mainline churches do not fit the profile of those whom Christ never knew. Charismatics and especially Oneness Pentecostals do.

I am not a Charismatic, nor am I a Pentecostal. Did you think this would matter to me?

 

[bbyrd009]

if There is only One immortal doesn't, I don't see how it could tbh

 

[Dave L]

I am not a Charismatic, nor am I a Pentecostal. Did you think this would matter to me?

Not necessarily. But it must since you are responding to it.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Not necessarily. But it must since you are responding to it.

Not really. I am just being polite. Can't help it. I'm Canadian.

 

[Keraz]

Revelation 6:9-11--->"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. 10They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them."

Who are those people and where are they? How did they get there? (see below)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18---> "And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

15We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.g 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have diedh will rise from their graves. 17Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18So encourage each other with these words.

My question was; show us where in the Bible it says God will take living Christians to heaven. You replied that the martyrs killed for their faith are there. The Christian girl killed in the shooting at Columbine, will be there.
Jesus will bring their souls with Him at His Return and they will be brought back to life for the Millennium. Revelation 20:4
This is Biblically correct and at times God does allow them some kind of consciousness, as we see in Revelation 6:11 and 19:1-6.
As for 1 Thess 4:17; heaven is not mentioned, that is a prophecy about Jesus' Return, He has left heaven and is about to arrive on earth.
Your replies are actually unrelated to the theory of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, so that fanciful notion remains what it is; a fable that will never happen.

I would contend that those who believe that the righteous must enter and go thru the day of the Lord are promoting a blasted hope.

That Day will come upon everyone the whole world over... Luke 21:34-35 It will be our test by fire; 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, 1 Peter 4:12

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

My question was; show us where in the Bible it says God will take living Christians to heaven...
As for 1 Thess 4:17; heaven is not mentioned, that is a prophecy about Jesus' Return, He has left heaven and is about to arrive on earth.

No, He will be meeting the Church in the air and taking them back to heaven to wait out the terrible time that will be coming on those who belong to this world, before He comes to judge the Antichrist, False Prophet and those who take the Mark of the Beast. When He comes to judge the hellish hordes, He will be bringing the Church back with Him, along with the armies of heaven (the holy angels). The Church will be there to help Him to judge and the armies of heaven will be there to carry out His orders. It's all in the Bible. I do not have time to look it all up for you. These are two separate events (the Rapture and the pre-Millennial judgment) and they are characterized in different ways. In the Rapture, Jesus comes for His own--He meets them in the air. At the 2nd Coming, He comes down to earth and His foot touches the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two (see Zechariah 14:4).

 

[Earburner]

The Great Apostasy is a doctrine found ind LDS, SDA, and JW theology.

Have a good time investing in nonChristian theology

Let's use the term of how it's written in the KJV, and not the terms of "religious" jargon.
2Thes.2
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away [from faith] first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
.
Jesus Himself spoke of it:
Luke 18[7] And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
[8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh,
shall he find faith on the earth?
.
> For Jesus to mention! that He is concerned about not finding faith on the earth, in the day of His physical return from Heaven, speaks plainly from his foreknowledge, that "a falling away" will literally be the case, and on a global scale.
So, it's not going to be an isolated, sporadic falling away, in certain countries or churches.
Since "a falling away" will be global, we must look for that event or effect that will cause "a falling away" to BE GLOBAL.
That global event will be "the mark of the beast", and it will not be of a "religious" nature.
It will appeal to "the natural man", aka "that man of sin, the son of perdition", and it will be voluntary, with great temptation!
.
The numerical term (666), for "six hundred, threescore six", should never be used.
WHY?
Ans. It conjures up a fictional, religious understanding of what the term "six hundred, three score" means. Again, never use the numerical term. It only leads one astray from the truth of what is being revealed.
.
In Revelations 13:11-18, verse 18 is just a description of what the "MoB" shall effect.
As for it is manifestation , verse 18 is mainly a reference to another scripture, being 1 Kings 10:14, of which describes the process of the MoB.
[14] Now the weight of gold that came TO Solomon IN one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold.
> So, what is the process of 1 Kings 10:14.
In the context of that scripture, a wise man named Solomon, freely received "six hundred threescore and six talents of gold in one year."
.
Now listen to Rev. 13:18-
[18] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Where is wisdom?
Ans. In the Bible.

See a man...
What man?
Ans. See a man called Solomon.
It's the number he (a man of wisdom) had to deal with.

What number was that?
Ans. Six hundred, threescore and six.

What did that number count?
Ans. Gold

What does gold measure today?
Ans. Money/fiat currency.
.
Since money/gold is tangible, and has been the means of "buying and selling" for thousands of years, how does " the mark of the beast" play into it.
Ans. Soon, their old economic paradigm of tangible money/gold will be eliminated from the general population, and we all will be driven into a "cashless society", their new economic paradigm.
Are we not almost there now?
Are we not expected to know our bank account number, pass words and PIN numbers?
Who said that our personal information can't be tattooed on to your right hand with invisible ink?

Therefore, if you DO TAKE the mark of the beast, you will have "fallen away" from faith, having no way back to God because- without FAITH, it is impossible to please Him.
Heb. 11[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
> And that is what Jesus is concerned about in many ways.
.
Please Google- "Universal Basic Income"- the new economic paradigm to come.
Free government money placed into your personal account. A free ANNUAL income!
Will you be tempted to use it? If so, you must comply with their NEW ID, the mark of the beast!

 

[Keraz]

No, He will be meeting the Church in the air and taking them back to heaven to wait out the terrible time that will be coming on those who belong to this world, before He comes to judge the Antichrist, False Prophet and those who take the Mark of the Beast

Nowhere does the Bible say this will happen. It is a false teaching.

When He comes to judge the hellish hordes, He will be bringing the Church back with Him, along with the armies of heaven (the holy angels).

Matthew 16:27 and 25:31 plainly states that Jesus will Return with accompanied by His Angelic army. No mention of the Church there and in all the other prophesies about that Day. Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-7, Matthew 24:30-31
Another false teaching.

It's all in the Bible. I do not have time to look it all up for you

A 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is not in the Bible at all. It is in fact a Satanic lie, that many have fallen for.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Nowhere does the Bible say this will happen. It is a false teaching.

Matthew 16:27 and 25:31 plainly states that Jesus will Return with accompanied by His Angelic army. No mention of the Church there and in all the other prophesies about that Day. Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-7, Matthew 24:30-31
Another false teaching.

A 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is not in the Bible at all. It is in fact a Satanic lie, that many have fallen for.

If many have "fallen for it"--perhaps it is you who are in error. The root Greek word harpazo (meaning, "caught up") is used several times in the New Testament. One of them was when the Spirit of the Lord "snatched away" the Apostle Philip after he baptized the Ethiopian Eunuch (in Acts 8). Another is in Revelation 12:5 when the woman who represents Israel was delivered of her child and He was "snatched up" to heaven to the throne of God and a third time was in the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 verse. In the Latin Vulgate, it was translated into the Latin word, rapturo ("to take by force") and from there it became "rapture" in English. Thus, there is a strong Biblical precedent for the Rapture of the Church. It would be good if you studied a bit more diligently instead of spending so much time spouting your dogma and accusing Christians of "Satanic lies". Here is a link to a website that speaks of the history of the doctrine (it was broadly present in the very early Church) and why it fell out of favor. Augustine did not favor it at all but then, he spent most of his life as a pagan and used a very inferior Latin text to form his theology rather than the Greek text (he didn't read Greek): The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Matthew 16:27 and 25:31 plainly states that Jesus will Return with accompanied by His Angelic army. No mention of the Church there and in all the other prophesies about that Day. Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-7, Matthew 24:30-31
Another false teaching.

Jude 14 and 15

 

[Keraz]

Jude 14 and 15

The Greek word; 'Hagios' [or similar,] translated variously as Angels, saints or holy ones, when referring to who will accompany Jesus at His Return, is proof texed as Angels by Matthew 16:27 and 25:31- both the Words of Jesus.
Elsewhere; hagios can mean saints, but it is mis-translated in some Bibles if applied to who comes with Jesus at His Return.
I have studied the 'rapture' subject extensively. The ECF's did not espouse it, they knew persecution and how it would continue until the end.
Yes; there will be a transportation of the faithful to where Jesus is at His Return, just as 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31 tell us. This is just between earthly locations, we never go to heaven.

I regret having to be forceful in my denunciations of any false doctrines I see. I know it causes upset, but I consider it is better for people such as yourself, who may have never heard of any other end times scenario than a 'rapture', to know there is an alternative and that, I assure you, will be amazing as all we Christians gather and live in all of the holy Land as the Lord pours His mighty Blessings upon His people. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, +

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The ECF's did not espouse it, they knew persecution and how it would continue until the end.

But the Greek Fathers did. Yes, Satan and his minions continue to persecute the Church--they always have. But, the wrath of God, in the Tribulation, is reserved for those who are in the world.

This is just between earthly locations, we never go to heaven.

I already showed you that the martyrs are in heaven. In the 2,000 years of the Church's existence, it is estimated that there have been 70,000,000 Christian martyrs. Why would the Lord Jesus divide the Church--His Bride? I think this is a fruitless discussion. I will not answer further.

 

[Keraz]

I already showed you that the martyrs are in heaven. In the 2,000 years of the Church's existence, it is estimated that there have been 70,000,000 Christian martyrs. Why would the Lord Jesus divide the Church--His Bride? I think this is a fruitless discussion. I will not answer further.

The martyrs are dead, of course, so they do not in any way support a 'rapture' of the living Church.

Trying to argue that there will be a rapture, is what is fruitless.

 

[Earburner]

The martyrs are dead, of course, so they do not in any way support a 'rapture' of the living Church.

Trying to argue that there will be a rapture, is what is fruitless.

Unfortunately, most everyone here speak in the "religious" terms of their denominational view.
The events of "rapture" and "destruction" are simultaneous.
When the Lord Jesus returns from Heaven, He is bringing with Him all the Saints that have died in faith!
As the living saints on earth are transformed immediately into the Lord's likeness, upon is Glorious return in flaming fire, in that same moment the living unsaved are burned up by His unquenchable and Eternal fire.
Without all the "religious" mumbo-jumbo, it's really quite simple!

 

[brakelite]

Imo when enough saints have testified about their Great Apostasies to someone it prolly clicks? Although that is likely a good literal example I guess, but it isn't as tho most Prots are not kissing a ring too imo

The reformation so called stalled big time when the reformers failed to continue in light offered an proceeded to persecute other protestants. So the apostasy which began with the "mystery of iniquity" in the days of the apostles still continues, the reformation sadly a roadblock that has now been repudiated by the children of the engineers who built it. "The protest is over" according to many. Too many.
The reformation needs to be fought again...this time round however it will be a global affair with "all the world wondering after the beast" and the small protesting remnant "being hated of all nations for My name's sake".

 

[bbyrd009]

Unfortunately, most everyone here speak in the "religious" terms of their denominational view.
The events of "rapture" and "destruction" are simultaneous.
When the Lord Jesus returns from Heaven, He is bringing with Him all the Saints that have died in faith!
As the living saints on earth are transformed immediately into the Lord's likeness, upon is Glorious return in flaming fire, in that same moment the living unsaved are burned up by His unquenchable and Eternal fire.
Without all the "religious" mumbo-jumbo, it's really quite simple!

:)

 

[Earburner]

The reformation so called stalled big time when the reformers failed to continue in light offered an proceeded to persecute other protestants. So the apostasy which began with the "mystery of iniquity" in the days of the apostles still continues, the reformation sadly a roadblock that has now been repudiated by the children of the engineers who built it. "The protest is over" according to many. Too many.
The reformation needs to be fought again...this time round however it will be a global affair with "all the world wondering after the beast" and the small protesting remnant "being hated of all nations for My name's sake".

:)

Most here have forgotten, or neglected to HEAR (discern) the parable of " the Wheat and the Tares".
Many have not figured out yet of HOW the tares are FIRST bundled.... TO BE burned .
There is ONLY ONE event that shall "bundle" them, and that is "the mark of the beast" . It will be the separation of the Goats from the Sheep!

Mat. 13[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them:
but gather the wheat into my barn.