The Coming Great Apostasy

[aspen]

The Great Apostasy is a doctrine found in LDS, SDA, and JW theology.

Have a good time investing in nonChristian theology

 

[Keraz]

I really don't want to argue with you, Sir. There are plenty of verses in Revelation about the redeemed surrounding the Throne of the Lamb in heaven. There is no point in trying to argue it away.

Provide ONE verse that actually says the Lord's people are in heaven.
If you do that, then I won't argue with you, a rapture would be correct. But I know the Bible very well and I simply do not see any proof of a rapture removal of any living Christian. Or dead ones, excepting the 2 Witnesses.

Uh--where do I start? First of all, in John 3:13, Jesus is confirming the teaching that the OT saints were not yet in heaven. They were said to be "in the bosom of Abraham"--in Hades (the Greek word for simply, the "place of the dead." In Hebrew, it was sheol). In the teaching of the Jews, Sheol/Hades was divided into two sections: the place of the righteous dead, where Abraham presided, and the "place of punishment" where the unrighteous dead would go. Jesus refers to the same in the tale of the "other Lazarus" in Luke 16. Jesus went to preach to the righteous souls in Hades ("Abraham delighted to see my day") and to take them with Him to heaven after the resurrection. Unfortunately, our English translators translate both Hades and Gehenna as hell and they are not the same. Gehenna is Aramaic for "the Lake of Fire". It was said that the place of punishment in Hades had a gate at the bottom level which led out to the "Lake of Fire".

I will get to the other objections you have when I get the time.

p.s. in the John 7:34 passage, He was speaking to UNBELIEVERS. Of course they would not be going to heaven with Him.

So Lady C, are you the arbiter of what scriptures apply to us and all the ones we should ignore?
I take all the statements of Jesus as applicable to us, unless plainly stated otherwise. Your arguments that they don't are made simply to support the false doctrine of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.

Your contention about John 7:34, where Jesus told the Pharisees they couldn't come to where He was going, fails because not every Jewish leader hated Jesus. One named Gamaliel spoke in favor of the Disciples; Acts 5:34-39

 

[Dave L]

I have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make.

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:22–23) (KJV 1900)

The above passage fits the profile of Charismatic churches, especially the UPC who do everything in Jesus' name including baptism.

It does not fit the profile of mainline churches and believers who do not practice this sort of thing.

 

[bbyrd009]

Please state book, chapter and verse where Scripture tells us we "shouldn't take it so literally".

Well that's why I was asking about "Eternal," or the snake handler thing LC, but there's lots of other examples too I guess. The wise prolly take things literally, heck I even quite often take things literally, there is only One Immortal, etc, so I guess it's not about literal per se anyway :) ntmy btw

 

[Harvest 1874]

Ever since WW1, haven't we BEEN in great tribulation?
Or do you want to isolate it to only 7 years?
If so why?

You are correct the great tribulation is not a 7 year period or a 3 1/ 2 year period as our futurist friends imagine. It comes in the same manner as the general tribulation came upon the church all throughout the Gospel age, like birth pangs upon a women and steadily grows until it reaches its climax. The great tribulation began as you suggested with the pouring out of the seven last plagues beginning with the first bowl (or catalyst) WWI in 1914 and will eventually climax with the pouring of the seventh, which is Armageddon, a time of trouble as such there never was nor will ever be again. Now its possible that this final phase of the great tribulation may last a few years perhaps two or three, but not much longer for we have the Lord’s assurance that he will make a short work of it and that on account of the elect (the Church glorified) those days will be shorten less no flesh should survive.

Many of the Lord’s people mistakenly confuse THE Great Tribulation (which is a general period of time) with the final event or climax of this tribulation, which is Armageddon, the time of trouble, which as stated by both our Lord and the prophet Daniel is a trouble never since there was a nation even till that time.

 

[bbyrd009]

^Start applying those in the context of "revelation of Christ" and it all comes together though, honest. Armageddon does not comport with wars and rumors of wars for instance, see, there is always a v that must be ignored in a bad interp I guess

'Spiritualizing' everything will lead to a lot of confusion. And yes, I like the expression, 'castles in the air'. The French speak of 'chteaux en Espagne'...

Understand how that sounds coming from ppl who believe in a mass rapture, I hope.

 

[bbyrd009]

I really don't want to argue with you, Sir. There are plenty of verses in Revelation about the redeemed surrounding the Throne of the Lamb in heaven. There is no point in trying to argue it away.

No point in trying to remove it to Tomorrow though either I guess

 

[brakelite]

The Great Apostasy is a doctrine found ind LDS, SDA, and JW theology.

Have a good time investing in nonChristian theology

Mmmm. Well, for the life of me I cannot understand why so many are looking forward to some great future apostasy as if the apostasy that saw the development of the Papacy wasn't enough to meet the criteria of being described as "great"?

 

[bbyrd009]

The Great Apostasy is a doctrine found ind LDS, SDA, and JW theology.

Have a good time investing in nonChristian theology

The nearest analogy that comes to mind with those is suicides wanting to take someone with them? But I guess I didn't feel that way at one time...wish I could put my finger on what exactly changed there. I had a Great Apostasy, maybe that did it?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Provide ONE verse that actually says the Lord's people are in heaven.
If you do that, then I won't argue with you, a rapture would be correct. But I know the Bible very well and I simply do not see any proof of a rapture removal of any living Christian. Or dead ones, excepting the 2 Witnesses.

Revelation 6:9-11--->"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. 10They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them."

Who are those people and where are they? How did they get there? (see below)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18---> "And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

15We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.g 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have diedh will rise from their graves. 17Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18So encourage each other with these words.

 

[bbyrd009]

Mmmm. Well, for the life of me I cannot understand why so many are looking forward to some great future apostasy as if the apostasy that saw the development of the Papacy wasn't enough to meet the criteria of being described as "great"?

Imo when enough saints have testified about their Great Apostasies to someone it prolly clicks? Although that is likely a good literal example I guess, but it isn't as tho most Prots are not kissing a ring too imo

 

[bbyrd009]

15We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died

1 Thessalonians 4:15 Lexicon: For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

No "return" in there, see. Plus I will never leave you nor forsake you

We currently teach that those who have "fallen asleep" precede those who are alive and remain, right, so this passage is turning that on it's head, and using literal language to describe a spiritual experience, almost surely. No reason you couldn't meet Him in the air today I guess

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Keraz: "So Lady C, are you the arbiter of what scriptures apply to us and all the ones we should ignore?"

No, I just follow principles of sound hermeneutics and one of those is to answer the question: To whom are these words being spoken? Verses 32 and 33 tell us exactly who they are--they are enemies of Jesus who are seeking to arrest Him.

Keraz: "Your contention about John 7:34, where Jesus told the Pharisees they couldn't come to where He was going, fails because not every Jewish leader hated Jesus. One named Gamaliel spoke in favor of the Disciples; Acts 5:34-39"

In fact, I can think of one more--Nicodemus. And there is mention of Jewish priests in Jerusalem being converted in Acts 6:7 But, the people who are seeking to arrest Him are obviously antagonistic toward Him.

 

[bbyrd009]

Keraz: "So Lady C, are you the arbiter of what scriptures apply to us and all the ones we should ignore?"

No, I just follow principles of sound hermeneutics and one of those is to answer the question: To whom are these words being spoken? Verses 32 and 33 tell us exactly who they are--they are enemies of Jesus who are seeking to arrest Him.

Keraz: "Your contention about John 7:34, where Jesus told the Pharisees they couldn't come to where He was going, fails because not every Jewish leader hated Jesus. One named Gamaliel spoke in favor of the Disciples; Acts 5:34-39"

In fact, I can think of one more--Nicodemus. And there is mention of Jewish priests in Jerusalem being converted in Acts 6:7 But, the people who are seeking to arrest Him are obviously antagonistic toward Him.

You might ask ol' Hermen about them other posts someday :)
There is only One Immortal
No one has ever gone up to heaven
You and your sons will be here with me

 

[bbyrd009]

And remember The Rule imo; the more sure they are, the less true it prolly is!

 

[Copperhead]

Actually, what we as believers are promised is that we would be gathered and protected from the day of Lord. Yeshua stated clearly in Matthew 28 that all authority was given to Him in heaven and earth. From Matthew 28 and onward to seal one in Revelation and onward thru the millennial kingdom is under the authority of Yeshua. All references to "day of the Lord" after Matthew 28 are likewise the day of Yeshua/Christ. So trying to delineate stuff like not falling under wrath but we have to go thru some of that period and how that ties into seals, bowls, trumpets, whatever is an exercise in futility. All of the period is the day of the Lord / day of Christ. Yeshua opens the first seal and it all begins.

And Paul tied the day of the Lord with the day of wrath in 1 Corinthians 5. And we would not be part of that period and that we should comfort one another with those words. Not sure how it is comforting the brethren when they are told by some the they will have to endure part or all of the tribulation period. And because the Thessalonians had been distracted by a forged letter claiming they were in the day of the Christ/ the Lord, Paul had to remind them in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the day of Christ/the Lord would not happen until the departure occurs via the one who is restraining being taken out of the way, and only then would the man of sin / antichrist be revealed. And throughout scripture, being gathered and hidden from the day of the Lord is stated or alluded to, many times in the prophets including a reference by King David in the Psalms. Both dead and living righteous being hidden in the location of the Lord BEFORE the day of the Lord/Christ begins. And Paul wrote Titus that this is our blessed hope. I would contend that those who believe that the righteous must enter and go thru the day of the Lord are promoting a blasted hope.

Sure, there will be those who become saints during that period, including the 144,000, and many of those saints will suffer and die, but that isn't a proof text that the church is part of that period. Those tribulation saints went into the period as unbelievers, but that doesn't make them the church. There were OT saints, and they were not part of the church either. While all are indeed redeemed the same way, not all are in the same category. Just like not all will receive the same rewards at the bema seat judgement (2 Corinthians 5). There are different groups of angels, there are different groups of the redeemed. That doesn't demean their redemption or their worth to the Lord. Leave the Socialist nonsense to those who are of the world.

 

[bbyrd009]

This is the day that the Lord has made;
we will rejoice and be glad in it

 

[amadeus]

The nearest analogy that comes to mind with those is suicides wanting to take someone with them? But I guess I didn't feel that way at one time...wish I could put my finger on what exactly changed there. I had a Great Apostasy, maybe that did it?

So did I my friend! Mine lasted for about 10 years.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:22–23) (KJV 1900)

The above passage fits the profile of Charismatic churches, especially the UPC who do everything in Jesus' name including baptism.

It does not fit the profile of mainline churches and believers who do not practice this sort of thing.

There were unbelievers, such as Simon Magus, who were doing all of those things--just as there are today. Again--what is your point?

 

[Dave L]

There were unbelievers, such as Simon Magus, who were doing all of those things--just as there are today. Again--what is your point?

My point is the "Charismatic" profile of these whom Jesus never knew. Especially Oneness.