The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Yes, the term "perdition" (Gk: ἀπώλεια) is a noun derived from the Greek term ἀπόλλυμι having a meaning of destroyed fully, complete ruin and total destruction.

It's the same term used by Jesus in Luk 19:10, the "lost" sheep of Israel (Mat 15:24), etc., of which we're told He came to seek and to save the "ἀπόλλυμι". The term ἀπόλλυμι is being used with reference to the flesh that is (or will be) destroyed fully to the saving of the spirit (a similar example of this found in 1Co 5:5), rather than the spirit of Judas, being the breath of God, the candle of the Lord, that part of Judas' soul made in the image of God.

God does not destroy His own image and breath.

Judas the TRAITOR is going to be in heaven? maybe also the devil and all who follow him? Where do you get your theology from?

Why do you think that Jesus said of Judas, it would have been better if you were not born? (Matthew 26:24)

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Yes, the term "perdition" (Gk: ἀπώλεια) is a noun derived from the Greek term ἀπόλλυμι having a meaning of destroyed fully, complete ruin and total destruction.

It's the same term used by Jesus in Luk 19:10, the "lost" sheep of Israel (Mat 15:24), etc., of which we're told He came to seek and to save the "ἀπόλλυμι". The term ἀπόλλυμι is being used with reference to the flesh that is (or will be) destroyed fully to the saving of the spirit (a similar example of this found in 1Co 5:5), rather than destroying the spirit of Judas, the spirit of Judas being the breath of God, the candle of the Lord, that part of Judas' soul made in the image of God.

God does not destroy His own image and breath.

as in every language, words have different meaning in different contexts. You cannot use your example of ἀπόλλυμι, that means "straying" in the Gospel passages that you refer to. To have the same meaning when used for Judas. It is like saying, that because Θεὸς is used for the devil in 2 Corinthians 4:4, that it has the same meaning when used for the One True God of the Bible. Context and usage are very important

 

[TahitiRun]

Judas the TRAITOR is going to be in heaven? maybe also the devil and all who follow him? Where do you get your theology from?

Why do you think that Jesus said of Judas, it would have been better if you were not born? (Matthew 26:24)

Judas was born to fulfill prophecy. And, he did exactly what he was ordained by God to do. I even underlined that part of the text to emphasis the context of Joh 17:12. It would have been better for Judas not to have been born to fulfill that roll of prophecy. However, betrayal in order to fulfill prophecy (prophecy that results in riches to the gentiles) is not an unpardonable sin. For if it were, none of Israel would or could be saved (Rom 11:25-26).

Judas was acting according to the flesh. And that is what will be fully destroyed in judgment, the flesh, not the spirit.

The flesh will not "be in heaven" (1Co 15:50). And that goes for all flesh, including Judas'. I'm repeating myself here.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Judas was born to fulfill prophecy. And, he did exactly what he was ordained by God to do. I even underlined that part of the text to emphasis the context of Joh 17:12. It would have been better for Judas not to have been born to fulfill that roll of prophecy. However, betrayal in order to fulfill prophecy (prophecy that results in riches to the gentiles) is not an unpardonable sin. For if it were, none of Israel would or could be saved (Rom 11:25-26).

Judas was acting according to the flesh. And that is what will be fully destroyed in judgment, the flesh, not the spirit.

The flesh will not "be in heaven" (1Co 15:50). And that goes for all flesh, including Judas'. I'm repeating myself here.

will the devil also be in heaven, and all those angels that rebelled against God?

 

[TahitiRun]

as in every language, words have different meaning in different contexts. You cannot use your example of ἀπόλλυμι, that means "straying" in the Gospel passages that you refer to. To have the same meaning when used for Judas. It is like saying, that because Θεὸς is used for the devil in 2 Corinthians 4:4, that it has the same meaning when used for the One True God of the Bible. Context and usage are very important

I'm not able to find any passage in the NT where "ἀπόλλυμι" means to "stray" or "straying" or to "wander" in context. Perhaps you could find one for me.

To stray or wander about would be translated from the Greek word "πλανάω", found here:

1Pe 2:25 For you were straying (Gk "πλανωμενα") like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

And to "stray" is not what ἀπόλλυμι means. This leads me to believe you really don't know what you're talking about.

 

[TahitiRun]

will the devil also be in heaven, and all those angels that rebelled against God?

It depends on your understanding of the term "devil" and/or "Satan". Peter's fleshly desires, called the interests "of man", were specifically rebuked by Jesus as being of "Satan" (Mat 16:23, Mar 8:33). Was Peter born of God and did Peter have eternal life when he tried to prevent Jesus going to the cross?

I'll let you be the judge of Peter.

 

[Behold]

God does not destroy His own image and breath.

Thats true.
As a matter of fact the thousands of Christ Rejectors, never born again, who died today and are in Hell, are not destroyed.

 

[TahitiRun]

Thats true.
As a matter of fact the thousands of Christ Rejectors, never born again, who died today and are in Hell, are not destroyed.

Scripture tells us using clear and unambiguous terms where the body and it's nature (the flesh) departs to and where the spirit of man goes upon death. And it's for all. Not just "Christ Rejectors", or those "never born again", but rather for all.

Ecc 3:20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

This is true for both man and beast alike. However, the spirit of man returns to God, called his eternal (Heb עוֹלָם) home:

Ecc 12:5 they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along and desire fails; because man goes to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets;
Ecc 12:6 before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern,
Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept to receive.

 

[Behold]

This is true for both man and beast alike. However, the spirit of man returns to God, called his eternal (Heb עוֹלָם) home:

You will not go to "eternal God" to stay, unless you are born again as a Son of God on this earth before your body hits that dirt with a shovel.
Believe it.
And if you die, not believing what Jesus told you.. =."that you MUST BE BORN AGAIN"...then you are here....today, and then... John 3:36.

That's on you, TahitRun.

See, God as Christ on the Cross has already done all He's going to do for you, to get you into Heaven after you die.
So, if you willfully sin, and do not come to Jesus, believing, here..."The work of God is that you believe on Jesus, whom God sent", then you end up here..>"Depart from Me, as i never knew you".

See, God receives Son's, born again, as "ONE with God", .. "in Christ"....as a "new Creation".....and that is this.... John 14:6.

IF you are not that SON, born again on this earth, you will go to Hell when you die, and you will not get a 2nd chance to be born again in Hell.
THat does not happen in Hell.

 

[brightfame52]

God SO LOVES The Entire Human Race

Once again, Next time you make a statement about scripture trying proving it from scripture.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Once again, Next time you make a statement about scripture trying proving it from scripture.

I see that you CANNOT respond to REAL Bible verses, only interested in your theology!

 

[brightfame52]

It gives redemption !

Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

As we can see Redemption is connected with remission or forgiveness of sins [which is non imputation 2 Cor 5:19] for sins are forgiven by the redeeming blood of Christ.

Because Christ on behalf of the sheep, satisfied God's wrath, the redemption of the sheep is the fruit or result thereof. In Eph 1:7 we read " In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Its noted of the preposition Paul uses here, which is not through whom, but in whom we have redemption, because redemption was a right to each one its was to be applied to by the Spirit of promise when regenerated, and because Christ died, and we were Chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4. We had a right because Jesus was our near kinsmen Redeemer because of having been chosen in Him by the Father.

Now, Just like the elect had condemnation before being born into this world, likewise the elect have redemption in Christ based upon His obedience, before being born into this world. But this ensures our release from captivity of sin.

Christ gave Himself a ransom for many, thus effecting their redemption, these terms when used in reckoning the work of Christ are joined together, the ransom denoting the price paid [ Christ life or blood] and the redemption, the effect of the ransom, is the liberation out of a prison of a prisoner [ who had been shut up into unbelief and sin, spiritual death]. The ransom paid demands the prisoners to be set free from the captivity of Satan and unbelief !See 2 Cor 4:3-4

 

[brightfame52]

I see that you CANNOT respond to REAL Bible verses, only interested in your theology!

Did you understand my post 47 ? Thats what I want to discuss.

 

[brightfame52]

It gives redemption cont 2

Christ gave Himself a ransom for many, thus effecting their redemption, these terms when used in reckoning the work of Christ are joined together, the ransom denoting the price paid [ Christ life or blood] and the redemption, the effect of the ransom, is the liberation out of a prison of a prisoner [ who had been shut up into unbelief and sin, spiritual death]. The ransom paid demands the prisoners to be set free from the captivity of Satan !

This [being set free] enables Two Things #1 The one being set free from the captivity of Satan has been granted repentance 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Yes, The redemption in Christ Christ Jesus delivers from the snare and captivity of Satan to the acknowledging of the Truth.

You see those who do not obey or believe the Truth or contradict it as described in 2 Thess 2:11,12

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Thats because they are in captivity to Satan, but if Christ died for them, they will experience redemption or liberation from Satan and His lies, that's what it means to have the Son set you free Jn 8:36

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jesus is referring to the redemption in His blood which will set free . liberate and deliver them He shall die for.

#2. Redemption enables and effects one to believe, because unbelief is merely a symptom of being captive and blinded by the God of this world [Satan] or the prince of this world . 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

see 2 Corinthians 4 - Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

It is the work of Satan to keep unbelievers minds blinded and unable to see the Truth in the Gospel, but the redemption in Christ opens up [by regeneration] blind eyes Lk 4:18

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

see how deliverance [redemption] is connected with recovering of sight for the blind ? Redemption therefore delivers from Satan blindness so we can see and believe. One must see the Son [spiritually] in order to believe as per Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He is set forth in the Gospel, for Paul says that Christ had been set before you to the Galatians Gal 3:10

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes[Spiritual] Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

So redemption in Christ blood delivers from impenitence and unbelief !

None for whom Christ died can die unrepentant and in unbelief, that would defeat His blood. !

 

[Curtis]

Deliverance from unbelief !

Unbelief is one of the sins that the elect world is saved from, that's the significance of this portion Jn 16:8-9.

The Holy Spirit convicts the elect unbeliever of sin and gives them faith.

Paul is an example, he was an elect who in unbelief rejected Jesus Christ and persecuted His followers, being blinded by the god of this world, but when it pleased God, He revealed in Him Jesus christ and he became a believer.

1 Tim 1:12-15,16

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith [to believe] and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Being saved experimentally is being delivered from unbelief .

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

The Fact is, no one Jesus Christ died to save, can ever die in unbelief, that would defeat one of the main purposes of His death accomplishments.

 

[Curtis]

Rom 5:11

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The Atonement of Christ has reconciled the elect world to God. It secured and ensured for it [ the elect world] every spiritual blessing needed to live unto God and for His Glory through Jesus Christ.

Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested.

The atonement accomplished the complete salvation for all whom it was offered for, that is the death of christ. It provides them Faith, repentance, sanctification, redemption, and every needful spiritual blessing to convert them to God, and remain secured forever.

Scripture refutes your Calvinism.

Scripture says God gives to every man a measure of faith. Scripture says faith comes by hearing the word of God, which is available to everyone who hears the word of God, not just the elect - but as Stephen said in Acts,the reason that Israel rejected their own Messiah set by God to save them is because they resist the Holy Spirit.

Faith is available to all who hear the word of God, but they can resist the Holy Spirit, and not be saved.

Since the Holy Spirit is resistible, there is no such thing as irresistible grace.

And Jesus said that some believe, but only for a while, and in time of testing fall away

 

[Curtis]

Here’s how salvation actually works in scripture:

Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world on the cross, because God does not wish that any should perish, and whosoever will, may come.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And God gives a measure of faith to each man, and faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Thus everyone has the potential to be saved by hearing the word of God, but the Holy Spirit, without whom no one can say, Jesus is Lord, is resistible, so we can refuse to believe.

Stephen told the Israelis in Acts that the reason they killed all the prophets God sent them, and rejected and killed their own Messiah, who initially came for them only, that the reason they did that, is because they resist the Holy Spirit

Act 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus),

Their resisting the Holy Spirit is see in John 1:11 where Jesus came for HIS OWN - the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but his own RECEIVED HIM NOT.

So Calvinism is wrong about how faith comes, and to who it comes.

 

[brightfame52]

Scripture refutes your Calvinism.

Scripture says God gives to every man a measure of faith. Scripture says faith comes by hearing the word of God, which is available to everyone who hears the word of God, not just the elect - but as Stephen said in Acts,the reason that Israel rejected their own Messiah set by God to save them is because they resist the Holy Spirit.

Faith is available to all who hear the word of God, but they can resist the Holy Spirit, and not be saved.

Since the Holy Spirit is resistible, there is no such thing as irresistible grace.

And Jesus said that some believe, but only for a while, and in time of testing fall away

You way off and wont listen to wisdom

 

[amigo de christo]

You will not go to "eternal God" to stay, unless you are born again as a Son of God on this earth before your body hits that dirt with a shovel.
Believe it.
And if you die, not believing what Jesus told you.. =."that you MUST BE BORN AGAIN"...then you are here....today, and then... John 3:36.

That's on you, TahitRun.

See, God as Christ on the Cross has already done all He's going to do for you, to get you into Heaven after you die.
So, if you willfully sin, and do not come to Jesus, believing, here..."The work of God is that you believe on Jesus, whom God sent", then you end up here..>"Depart from Me, as i never knew you".

See, God receives Son's, born again, as "ONE with God", .. "in Christ"....as a "new Creation".....and that is this.... John 14:6.

IF you are not that SON, born again on this earth, you will go to Hell when you die, and you will not get a 2nd chance to be born again in Hell.
THat does not happen in Hell.

exactly . JESUS said go ye and preach the gosple to all , He that believes shall be saved but he who rejects will be damned .
There is no second chance . The one true gospel is under attack as never before .
And when the HOLY GHOST has come HE will reprove the world .
OF SIN because THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME .
Or again in another place . I said unto you that ye shall DIE IN YOUR SIN
because if you BELIEVE NOT that I AM HE , YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS .
HE who does not believe in the record and testimony that GOD has given OF THE SON
Has made GOD out to be a liar .
HE who has the SON has LIFE but HE who has not the SON has not life .
And we believe the testimony that GOD has given us of HIS SON . AND IN HIM IS ETERNAL LIFE .
And in another place , He who has NOT the SON has NOT THE FATHER , but HE who has the SON the same HAS THE FATHER .
Or in another place , , man i could go on with this all day .
LET NO MAN BEGUILE YOU OF YOUR REWARD by preaching a false gospel . LET US CLING TO CHRIST and tell
all TO BE SAVED YE MUST BELIEVE ON HE WHOM GOD DID SEND . JESUS CHRIST .

 

[TahitiRun]

You will not go to "eternal God" to stay, unless you are born again as a Son of God on this earth before your body hits that dirt with a shovel.
Believe it.
And if you die, not believing what Jesus told you.. =."that you MUST BE BORN AGAIN"...then you are here....today, and then... John 3:36.

That's on you, TahitRun.

What specifically is "on me"? I believe also in Joh 3:3, 3:5 and 3:7 concerning regeneration (the new birth). Nothing Jesus said to Nicodemus contradicts what Solomon spoke in Ecclesiastes.

As for Joh 3:36. John here is contrasting the two elements of the soul: "flesh" (not believing, not see life) with "spirit" (believing, has life). Wrath remains upon the "flesh", not the "spirit".

For example: Saul (not believing) and Paul (believing). Same soul (compound, singular), consisting of two different elements (plural) "flesh" and "spirit" that receive two different outcomes (plural). Flesh returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God.

This is also what Jesus describes in Mat 25:31-46, concerning the "nations" of the soul that are gathered before Him in the resurrection: "sheep" vs "goat". The "nations" are the two kingdoms of the soul, "flesh" and "spirit", that were "separated" at death (exactly as Solomon described) and are judged accordingly by Christ.

That's what John was speaking of.