The Assyrian Anti-christ

[BibleScribe]

:blink:

It would take a great misunderstanding of the new testament to somehow consider God's plan was to make another fleshly nation for himself. It would also take a great misunderstanding of history to somehow think America was founded according to Christ's ways. In his name? Sure. His name on the lips and a sword in the hand, with chains ready for the captives.

Christ has made all those who would be in Him to be a 'peculiar people, a nation of priests'.

The devil rules over all the kingdoms of the earth, and God rules over the kingdom of heaven. America is the antithesis of Christianity; mighty in the flesh, self-serving...

Now you're going to say I hate America. :)

I don't. Earthly power corrupts, as it is all in the faithless ways of the devil, according to Mammon (money), Lording it over others, etc. No nation or earthly organization is exempt from this. That includes the 'church' when she seeks to be recognized as an earthly organization.

God works according to the Spirit, and his kingdom is not of this world. These are of the most basic truths, and I am stunned you would not know this.

Ummmmm, there must be two arguments here.

The one I was addressing is from your Post #8, in which you provided: "... if we think we North Americans who kill innocent people in the name of... Democracy... Or Jesus... Or peace, are justified, then we have fooled ourselves."


And in response, I merely cited that Scripture held the United States in the highest regard for being a nation which does their best to confront tyranny, saves people, and restore societies. Is this not the Christ example, as evidenced by the heritage of these citizens? And if imperfection is found then let it be judged, but if righteousness is found then let it be rewarded. (Ref. Psalms 45)

For I would propose that GOD did not leave man abase in sin, but first of all gave him a conscience. And where some occasionally violate that internal gyroscope, so too these also obey (in varying degrees). But to heap condemnation on a greater society is as much a sin as you accuse them of.

So once again, I would propose that you consider the council of Almighty GOD before you take matters into your own hands. (Ref. Psalms 45)



BibleScribe

 

[tim_from_pa]

I agree with the OP, the the future beast will be Assyrian. Many end-time theologians agree with that and in and of itself is no secret.

However, where will this beast arise from? Some people associate the beast (and Babylon for that matter) with the traditional geographical areas of these people, namely Iraq, Iran and Syria. That's what I used to hear when I studied the lessons from Dr. Gene Scott (now deceased).

however, much like the lost tribes teaching that both Dr. Scott and H. W. Armstrong embraced, the Assyrian people as well as Israel were displaced in the Roman Empire Days (Babylon to Rome, you get the idea). So H. W. Armstrong I learned goes by the people where they actually reside today, and Germany is associated with Assyria, therefore teaching the Assyrian is German. To complicate matters, the supposed end-time Roman Empire extended far and wide (encompassing both regions) so that does not put a finger on it.

The way I handle it is that perhaps the two views do not contradict, as who says that the German beast will not headquarter and identify with the middle east, and some of those peoples with him? This would then be "The King of the North". Likewise, Egypt and company are aligning to become the beast's adversary in the "King of the South" which seems to be the Islamic nations forming today as we see a lot of political unrest amongst those nations over there.

Whoever this beast becomes, he must originally be "pro-Jewish" enough to at least allow sacrifices in the temple that's going to be built again, but then at some point, he's going to repeat history so-to-speak when he does his "abomination of desolation" thing. So, that in itself shows he's going to be working a lot out of the middle east, even if he comes from Europe.

 

[BibleScribe]

...who says that the German beast will not headquarter and identify with the middle east, and some of those peoples with him? This would then be "The King of the North". Likewise, Egypt and company are aligning to become the beast's adversary in the "King of the South" ..

Hi Tim,

Actually Scripture provides an answer to your question. Daniel 11 provides FOUR entities:

1. king of the south (verse 5, and others)
2. king of the north (verse 6 and others)
3. Egypt (verse 8 & 43)
4. the east (verse 44)


So where you ascribe the "king of the south" as "Egypt", Scripture says they're two different entities. But if you correctly determined who the TRUE "king of the south" was, then you might determine who the "king of the north was". And having made those assignments, maybe you'd be able to assess who the "beast" is.


But as it stands, you are further from both Scripture and History than you might anticipate.


BibleScribe

 

[tim_from_pa]

Hi Tim,

Actually Scripture provides an answer to your question. Daniel 11 provides FOUR entities:

1. king of the south (verse 5, and others)
2. king of the north (verse 6 and others)
3. Egypt (verse 8 & 43)
4. the east (verse 44)


So where you ascribe the "king of the south" as "Egypt", Scripture says they're two different entities. But if you correctly determined who the TRUE "king of the south" was, then you might determine who the "king of the north was". And having made those assignments, maybe you'd be able to assess who the "beast" is.


But as it stands, you are further from both Scripture and History than you might anticipate.


BibleScribe

Hi. I'm well familiar with Daniel, but what I probably did not make clear was that Egypt will be part of the southern confederacy as opposed to specifically the "King of the South" as it's own entity. Each chapter of Daniel dealing with the empires and end times keeps focusing in more and more on the beast, until we arrive at the conclusion that he is the same as the "King of the North" making the beast come out of the old Seleucid portion of the Grecian Empire. Of course historically the identification with the south and north was the Ptolomies and Seleucids becoming the dominant forces after Alexander the Great's Kingdom spit into 4 parts. This forms the geographical basis. But what of the people now? Their descendants may not be in the same geographical region is what I am saying, just as Manasseh became the USA, and Ephraim of Israel became the Commonwealth of Britain when they wandered as the lost tribes and never historically returned back to the land. So if we talk about the people of Ephraim today, right now it's not in the land of Israel, but over in the isles instead.

As for "the east" is really out of the "east and north" i.e. Gog and Magog and their confederates. These are the Kings of the East in Revelation and also the invasion of Gog in Ezekiel 38. I did not mention them, however in my last post since the subject was about the beast so I don't want to convey the idea that I only believed in two end time entities.

 

[veteran]

The word all in Rev 13:8 means individually. If all, whole, or completely was to be meant, John would have used 'holos' and not 'pas.' I see that I'm going to have to give you examples how the word 'pas' is used compared to the word 'holos.' There are hundreds of examples of this but doubt you'll accept it.

Matthew 2:3 　When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all (pas 'individually') Jerusalem with him.

I seriously doubt that all the people of Jerusalem were troubled.

Matthew 3:5 　Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Here both words are 'pas.' All people from Jerusalem, Judea and the region around Jordan did not get baptized by John.

Matthew 4:24 　And his fame went throughout all (holos) Syria: and they brought unto him all (pas) sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Famine did go throughout Syria. That's the word 'holos' the one that is not used in Revelation 13:7-8

The second word all (pas) in the verse referencing to sick people is the one used in Rev. 13:7-8 That's because not all the sick people from Syria were brought unto Christ.

Matthew 8:16 　When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: The way the word all (pas) is used here is very similar to Rev. 13-7-8. It's not all the people of the world that were healed, only the ones that were brought to Christ!

In Rev 13 not all the "kindreds, and tongues, and nations" of the world will worship him. Only those that he had power given him over! NOT THE ENTIRE WORLD!
If the word 'holos' was used then I would agree with you. But it is not!

Matthew 12:23 　And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
All the people of the world were not amazed.

Matthew 14:35 　And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all (holos) that country round about, and brought unto him all (pas) that were diseased; Same thing here. The were sent out into the entire country but I seriously doubt that all the diseased people were brought to Christ. I'm sure they didn't find them all or that all of them wanted to go or believed that they could be healed!

Matthew 21:10 　And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

I doubt that every person in the city was moved!

I really doubt that you will ever change your mind about this because it debunks your globalist theory!

I said,


You said,


This is what you are quoted as saying,

The only difference with the way you see those usages is that with the world government idea, some far away places, like islands in the oceans would be excluded from 'all'.

Yet, what do we see with the representatives of nations sent to the United Nations functions? We've already been shown how many 'all' means just with that example, which is right in font of you.

 

[BibleScribe]

Hi Tim,

I'm not sure which "southern confederacy" you are referencing. And equally, how do you arrive to some "king of the north" without some identification of a "king of the south"?

And to exacerbate your problem, are you inclined to simply take whatever verses out of the full chapter context? Isn't there a sequence of world empires which start with Darius the Mede, and don't you need to assign his place in history before even starting an interpretation?

And if you were able to accomplish such an evaluation, then wouldn't you find the prophecy starting approximate to the 1900's, and possibly WWI?


I hate to demand that your interpretation match Scripture and history, but it seems to be a good place to start.


BibleScribe

 

[tim_from_pa]

Hi Tim,

I'm not sure which "southern confederacy" you are referencing. And equally, how do you arrive to some "king of the north" without some identification of a "king of the south"?

And to exacerbate your problem, are you inclined to simply take whatever verses out of the full chapter context? Isn't there a sequence of world empires which start with Darius the Mede, and don't you need to assign his place in history before even starting an interpretation?

And if you were able to accomplish such an evaluation, then wouldn't you find the prophecy starting approximate to the 1900's, and possibly WWI?


I hate to demand that your interpretation match Scripture and history, but it seems to be a good place to start.


BibleScribe

I thought I was being historical, which is what I said about Alexander the Great's Kingdom breaking up. OK, then let's start with this history: The King of the South is the Ptolemaic empire, (http://en.wikipedia....Ptolemaic_Egypt) and the north is the Seleucid Empire (http://en.wikipedia....Seleucid_Empire). What nations did they comprise geographically? and everyone here can go from there. No need to make this more complicated. My only variable was locating their descendants today--- the modern nations they comprise. That in a nutshell is the only curve ball I threw in. Otherwise, my assessment of the empires are what many historians, theologians, and bible notes say ---- nothing off the wall.

 

[BibleScribe]

... The King of the South is the Ptolemaic empire, (http://en.wikipedia....Ptolemaic_Egypt) and the north is the Seleucid Empire (http://en.wikipedia....Seleucid_Empire). ...

I think you failed to start with Darius the Mede. -- Isn't the starting point of any driving instruction a critical factor?



BibleScribe

 

[tim_from_pa]

I think you failed to start with Darius the Mede. -- Isn't the starting point of any driving instruction a critical factor?



BibleScribe

Sorry. I really don't follow your cryptic clues. I'm talking about the Empires of Daniel 11 and cited reliable sources. I realize there's the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and then the remnants of the Grecian Empire all mentioned in Daniel. But I was not talking about those.

The subject of this thread is on the beast anyway and we're veering a little off course.

The beast is the King of the North, and that geographically encompassed the Seleucid Empire, the Grecian, the Medo-Persian, the Babylonian, and even the later Roman Empires, and all were located where ancient Assyria was located, i.e. Assyria was within the boundaries of their empires.

 

[Prentis]

Ummmmm, there must be two arguments here.

The one I was addressing is from your Post #8, in which you provided: "... if we think we North Americans who kill innocent people in the name of... Democracy... Or Jesus... Or peace, are justified, then we have fooled ourselves."


And in response, I merely cited that Scripture held the United States in the highest regard for being a nation which does their best to confront tyranny, saves people, and restore societies. Is this not the Christ example, as evidenced by the heritage of these citizens? And if imperfection is found then let it be judged, but if righteousness is found then let it be rewarded. (Ref. Psalms 45)

For I would propose that GOD did not leave man abase in sin, but first of all gave him a conscience. And where some occasionally violate that internal gyroscope, so too these also obey (in varying degrees). But to heap condemnation on a greater society is as much a sin as you accuse them of.

So once again, I would propose that you consider the council of Almighty GOD before you take matters into your own hands. (Ref. Psalms 45)



BibleScribe

:blink:

America does not follow Christ's example. Money, power, putting oneself above others.

I would venture to say one cannot know Christ's ways and claim that America follows it.

Christ sacrificed his life to make peace, his work was spiritual. America sacrifices OTHERS to make peace, like the Roman empire.

I wont need to say more, it's just too obvious! Not worth arguing over...

God bless you

 

[BibleScribe]

... America sacrifices OTHERS to make peace, like the Roman empire.
...

Once again, I can either take your opinion, or GOD's opinion regarding the United States, -- and I choose GOD's:


[sup]2[/sup] You are the most excellent of men
and your lips have been anointed with grace,
since God has blessed you forever.
[sup]3[/sup] Gird your sword on your side, you mighty one;
clothe yourself with splendor and majesty.
[sup]4[/sup] In your majesty ride forth victoriously
in the cause of truth, humility and justice;
let your right hand achieve awesome deeds.
[sup]5[/sup] Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king’s enemies;
let the nations fall beneath your feet.
[sup]6[/sup] Your throne, O God,[sup][[/sup][sup]c[/sup][sup]][/sup] will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
[sup]7[/sup] You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.
[sup]8[/sup] All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;
from palaces adorned with ivory
the music of the strings makes you glad.
[sup]9[/sup] Daughters of kings are among your honored women;
at your right hand is the royal bride in gold of Ophir.
[sup]10[/sup] Listen, daughter, and pay careful attention:
Forget your people and your father’s house.
[sup]11[/sup] Let the king be enthralled by your beauty;
honor him, for he is your lord.
[sup]12[/sup] The city of Tyre will come with a gift,[sup][[/sup][sup]d[/sup][sup]][/sup]
people of wealth will seek your favor.
[sup]13[/sup] All glorious is the princess within her chamber;
her gown is interwoven with gold.
[sup]14[/sup] In embroidered garments she is led to the king;
her virgin companions follow her—
those brought to be with her.
[sup]15[/sup] Led in with joy and gladness,
they enter the palace of the king.
[sup]16[/sup] Your sons will take the place of your fathers;
you will make them princes throughout the land.
[sup]17[/sup] I will perpetuate your memory through all generations;
therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.


It seems the real issue here is credibility. I can both present and defend exactly how and why this chapter pertains to the United States of America. However, you have no clue as to the merit. So instead of asking WHY this Chapter has credence, you choose to simply ignore it. So you have no foundation, and only an opinion; but I have both the foundation and an opinion.

And if I might add, -- my opinion mirrors GOD's opinion. :)


BibleScribe

 

[BibleScribe]

...
The beast is the King of the North, ...

For you to make that assertion without a defense of exactly who Darius the Mede is, and who the three more who arise in Persia, and the fourth which DIDN'T arise in Persia are, (etc.) -- is lacking in context, content, and fact.


But maybe you are particularly interested in "history". ;) (A reference to your footer. LOL)

BibleScribe

 

[Jake]

Once again, I can either take your opinion, or GOD's opinion regarding the United States, -- and I choose GOD's:


[sup]2[/sup] You are the most excellent of men
and your lips have been anointed with grace,
since God has blessed you forever.
[sup]3[/sup] Gird your sword on your side, you mighty one;
clothe yourself with splendor and majesty.
[sup]4[/sup] In your majesty ride forth victoriously
in the cause of truth, humility and justice;
let your right hand achieve awesome deeds.
[sup]5[/sup] Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king’s enemies;
let the nations fall beneath your feet.
[sup]6[/sup] Your throne, O God,[sup][[/sup][sup]c[/sup][sup]][/sup] will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
[sup]7[/sup] You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.
[sup]8[/sup] All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;
from palaces adorned with ivory
the music of the strings makes you glad.
[sup]9[/sup] Daughters of kings are among your honored women;
at your right hand is the royal bride in gold of Ophir.
[sup]10[/sup] Listen, daughter, and pay careful attention:
Forget your people and your father’s house.
[sup]11[/sup] Let the king be enthralled by your beauty;
honor him, for he is your lord.
[sup]12[/sup] The city of Tyre will come with a gift,[sup][[/sup][sup]d[/sup][sup]][/sup]
people of wealth will seek your favor.
[sup]13[/sup] All glorious is the princess within her chamber;
her gown is interwoven with gold.
[sup]14[/sup] In embroidered garments she is led to the king;
her virgin companions follow her—
those brought to be with her.
[sup]15[/sup] Led in with joy and gladness,
they enter the palace of the king.
[sup]16[/sup] Your sons will take the place of your fathers;
you will make them princes throughout the land.
[sup]17[/sup] I will perpetuate your memory through all generations;
therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.


It seems the real issue here is credibility. I can both present and defend exactly how and why this chapter pertains to the United States of America. However, you have no clue as to the merit. So instead of asking WHY this Chapter has credence, you choose to simply ignore it. So you have no foundation, and only an opinion; but I have both the foundation and an opinion.

And if I might add, -- my opinion mirrors GOD's opinion. :)


BibleScribe

The only problem is, this scripture does not line up with what actually is, so there is no way this is speaking of the United States. First of all, the only "justice" we do involves oil, and a complete disregard for genocides going on in the countries of Africa, simply because there are zero resources there. There ARE righteous people in America who do help these people, they give money and fulfill other needs, however our gov't is in no way righteous. God may have used them for righteous acts, yet in and of itself it is filled with corruption, pursuing power and money. They lord it over other nations and as far as other countries honoring America, maybe a long time ago, but I would venture to say we are one of the most hated nations in the world.

As believers, our Kingdom is a spiritual one, not a physical, earthly one. We are to futher His Kingdom, not the United States of America's.

 

[BibleScribe]

... there is no way this is speaking of the United States. ...

Hi Jake,

There's no way a ~400,000 lb Boeing 767 can fly. Do you think I'm stupid?!?


Facts, Jake, -- no wild guessing.

BibleScribe

 

[Jake]

This is where you need to check your facts. No a 400,000 lb Boeing 767 can not fly, but a 298,000 lb one can, because that's how much one really weighs. ;)

Another fact, that scripture isn't speaking of the US.

 

[BibleScribe]

The Boeing 767-300

"Max takeoff with PW-4060s 181,890kg (401,000lb)"
http://www.airliners...ats.main?id=104


767-300ER




A United Airlines 767-300ER arriving at Ezeiza International Airport
The 767-300ER, the extended-range version of the 767-300, entered service with American Airlines in 1988.[sup][38][/sup] The type's increased range is made possible by greater fuel tankage and a higher MTOW of 407,000 lb (185,000 kg).[sup][43][/sup] Design improvements allowed the available MTOW to increase to 412,000 lb (187,000 kg) by 1993.[sup][43][/sup]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767




It seems you're wrong on both counts. But that's ok, ignorance is bliss. :)


BibleScribe

 

[Jake]

The Boeing 767-300

"Max takeoff with PW-4060s 181,890kg (401,000lb)"
http://www.airliners...ats.main?id=104


It seems you're wrong on both counts. But that's ok, ignorance is bliss. :)


BibleScribe

Ah, but you only said the 767, brother, not the derivative 767-300.

There is a difference. Specifics and details are important, too. :)

But we digress, so apologizies to the OP.

 

[BibleScribe]

It's a 767 which has a maximum take off weight of ~400,00 lbs.


And the chapter as cited DOES apply to the nation which I've indicated. Now if you want me to present and defend that assertion, then PLEASE step right up. But to speak from your presumption is ill advised.



BibleScribe

 

[Jake]

It's a 767 which has a maximum take off weight of ~400,00 lbs.


And the chapter as cited DOES apply to the nation which I've indicated. Now if you want me to present and defend that assertion, then PLEASE step right up. But to speak from your presumption is ill advised.



BibleScribe

I am definitely not going to argue the wt of an airplane, brother, it is not worth it.

If you want to continue in your belief that America is somehow God's "chosen people" and all we do is for the good of the world lol, who am I to burst your ego?
Yet, America needs to repent for all the damage it's done.

peace -

 

[veteran]

I am definitely not going to argue the wt of an airplane, brother, it is not worth it.

If you want to continue in your belief that America is somehow God's "chosen people" and all we do is for the good of the world lol, who am I to burst your ego?
Yet, America needs to repent for all the damage it's done.

peace -

I'm not taking sides with this issue, but I have to say you are wrong about the U.S.

If nations are looked upon as entities like people, hatred towards Christ and His servants is exactly what He said for us to expect. So hatred of the U.S. by other peoples and nations does not disprove we are God's people in the U.S.

Nor does the evil that some of our nation's leaders do disprove that the U.S. is a nation under God. All it proves is weakness of we the people to drive out the "workers of iniquity" and trouble-makers that are in control of the evil tools designed to corrupt the American people.

If you can't see the 'root' of evil in America coming from a certain minority that's gotten control instead of that coming from the majority of American peoples, then you're listening to the lies of those evil minorities instead. Communists are one of those evil minorities in America.