BARNEY BRIGHT
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People will choose to believe what they choose to believe. You have said nothing of what you have been saying is shown to be scriptural. You can quote scripture but you truly don't understand the scriptures you quote.
The answer of hell and its origins
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bbyrd009
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Aunty Jane
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LOL...it also rules out the apostles who were married men.....Jesus cured Peter's mother-in-law. (Mark1:29-31)
The "virginity" is spiritual. (Jer 3:8-9; James 4:4) Its hard to imagine 144,000 Jewish bachelors....
The 144,000 making up the Kingdom of God were 'built' on the foundation of the apostles......so these are not just Jews.....in fact the reason why God "turned his attention to the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name" (Acts 15:14) in the first century, was because the Jews were not going to fill the whole number. They were given first option though, and Peter was introduced to the idea that "unclean" Gentiles would also make up Christ's elect with the vision God gave him of the unclean animals that he was told to "slaughter and eat".....when Peter refused on the basis of God's law, he was told..."stop calling unclean the things that God has cleansed." With that he was sent to the home of Cornelius and he got the message....Gentiles would now be counted among Christ's disciples without the necessity of becoming Jewish procelytes first. These had received the holy spirit even before their baptism. (Acts 10:9-32)
Aunty Jane
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"Jehovah" is the English translation of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton.
YHWH was retained in Jewish scripture but forbidden to be said out loud.
As a translation, it retains the meaning of God's name "I will be what I will be" (according to the Jewish Tanakh).
"Yahweh" is a transliteration or what many think is close to the way it may have been said in Hebrew.....no one knows.
But if you look at the Jewish Bible, the names we see there are very unfamiliar.....translated into English however, we can identify them straight away.
So if Christendom accepts that "Jesus" is God, why then do most people have no problem with the English translation of "Jesus", but stumble over the English translation of "Jehovah" as the Father's name?
The words of the Lord's Prayer state first and foremost...."Hallowed be they name"....its hard to sanctify a name you never use.
RLT63
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RLT63
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You should rule out the Apostles. These are people living in the end times.LOL...it also rules out the apostles who were married men.....Jesus cured Peter's mother-in-law. (Mark1:29-31)
The "virginity" is spiritual. (Jer 3:8-9; James 4:4) Its hard to imagine 144,000 Jewish bachelors....
The 144,000 making up the Kingdom of God were 'built' on the foundation of the apostles......so these are not just Jews.....in fact the reason why God "turned his attention to the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name" (Acts 15:14) in the first century, was because the Jews were not going to fill the whole number. They were given first option though, and Peter was introduced to the idea that "unclean" Gentiles would also make up Christ's elect with the vision God gave him of the unclean animals that he was told to "slaughter and eat".....when Peter refused on the basis of God's law, he was told..."stop calling unclean the things that God has cleansed." With that he was sent to the home of Cornelius and he got the message....Gentiles would now be counted among Christ's disciples without the necessity of becoming Jewish procelytes first. These had received the holy spirit even before their baptism. (Acts 10:9-32)
Aunty Jane
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Are you serious? Members of the elect (saints) were alive in Jesus' day...they are the ones who wrote the Christian scriptures. ...written by the elect...for the elect who were gathered first. These will also be raised "first". (1 Thess 4:16; Rev 20:6)
Rev 21:10-14....
"And he took me in the spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the sacred city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having God’s glory: what it is lighted by is like a most precious stone, as if it were a crystalline jaspid stone; 12 it has a great high wall, and has twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written on the gates which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel— 13 on the east three gates and on the north three gates and on the south three gates and on the west three gates; 14 and the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the Lamb’s twelve apostles."
God's kingdom is founded on the 12 apostles....."new Jerusalem" is the holy city that brings Christ's rulership to the earth.
RLT63
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BARNEY BRIGHT
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RLT63
Well-Known Member
Who are the 144,000?
Who are the 144,000? The number 144,000 appears three times in the Book of Revelation: Revelation 7:3–8: saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every...
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bbyrd009
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yes, but you are currently being very selective with that, maybe
Jesus also said “No one has ever gone up to heaven but he who came down from it” see, and i dont see you Quoting that.
bbyrd009
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so, my guess here is that whereas “hel” is supposed to be after one dies, right? But there is really no reason that one could not apply this parable to their daily walk, since it is what we (the “son of man”) do on a daily basis, at “the end of the age” which does not have to mean “when the world ends,” unless one is trying to become an immortal after they have died;
36Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness.
42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.f
He who has ears, let him hear.
all it takes , really, is an understanding of “end of the age,” which you interpret as “end of the world, beginning of eternity,” most likely, but see, “aion” is used there, and not “aidios,” right? So iow “age-long,” and not “forever.” So i suggest that a parable is being carefully crafted so that one might interpret how they like, thus revealing themselves, but regardless of what i believe—or what you believe—we currently do not share the correct definition of “eternal,” which does not mean “forever.”
no reason you cant “shine like the sun in the kingdom of your Father” right now, see
bbyrd009
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The kingdom of heaven is within
No one has ever gone up to heaven
All go to the same place
There is only One Immortal
Aunty Jane
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“the 144,000” are....those who will rule with Christ from heaven. They are not all from among literal Israel, as indicated by the apostle Paul who identified Christians, both Jewish and Gentile as “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) This is spiritual “Israel”. (Rom 2:28-29)Who are the 144,000?
Who are the 144,000? The number 144,000 appears three times in the Book of Revelation: Revelation 7:3–8: saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every...
They are a finite and specific group whom Rev 14:1 tells us are “standing on Mt Zion” with the Lamb, which is not an earthly location but a heavenly one. (Hebrews 12:22).....And in verse 3, it says that were “bought from among mankind as firstfruits”....”bought” means purchased, as these are redeemed by Jesus’ blood, along with another group, (these are unnumbered) which are also seen by John attributing salvation to the God and the Lamb. (Rev 7:9-10, 13-14)
These 144,000 are “firstfruits”.....the first of a crop, meaning that these are the choicest, and personally chosen by God for their role in heaven...which Rev 20:6 indicates would be in the role of “kings and priests” who will rule with Christ in heaven over earthly subjects who are said to “come out of the “great tribulation”.
Being “firstfruits” means that another crop is expected. The Bible backs that up by Jesus telling us that he will call all the dead out of their graves.....he doesn’t call them from heaven or hell, but from the place where they have been “sleeping”, like Lazarus was before Jesus raised him and reunited him with his family and friends. (John 5:28-29; John 11:11-14) All of the first century resurrections were the same. It was a restoration of life demonstrated to a people who were never taught about an immortal soul.
The earthly survivors of the world’s greatest tribulation will be joined later by the resurrected ones whom Jesus will bring back to the earth to enjoy the benefits of God’s kingdom....the “new heaven” of Jesus and his 144,000 “joint heirs”, ruling over an “new earth”. (2 Peter 3:13)
Their choosing was interrupted by the foretold apostasy, so all through Christian history, these ones continued to be selected. The first century saw the first influx of the elect (“saints”) but in the intervening centuries selection was hampered by the counterfeit Christianity that Jesus said would be sown by the devil. “The church” deviated entirely from what Christ taught. It wasn’t until Christ’s return, (which we believe took place in 1914 fulfilling all the prophesies that Jesus gave in Matt 24:3-14) or “the time of the end” that God said through his prophet Daniel, that he was going to “cleanse, whiten and refine” his worshippers.....but again as always, they would be in a minority. Those intent on refusing the cleansing (the wicked) would be ‘granted no insight or understanding’ at all. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)
There is a reason why “few” are on the right road.......it looks like the “wrong” road to those indoctrinated by Christendom. (Matt 7:13-14) The devil is a master deceiver......never swallow what the majority believes.
All of Christendom’s doctrines dishonour Jehovah.....none more so than the teaching of eternal suffering in hellfire.....only a fiend of the worst kind would dream up such a horrendous scenario. (Jer 7:31)
Eternal death is the end for those who reject the truth.....nothing more awful than that. God doesn’t need to torture people, he just eliminates them from existence, withdrawing his gift of life from those who don’t deserve it. It will be as if they never existed.
Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 65:9
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isaiah 65:22
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1 Timothy 5:21
I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2 John 1:1
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 John 1:13
The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What I am "trying to say" is not going to be found in the translation that you have taken these verses from....it is IMO a very poor translation and the reason why most modern English translations (not based off the KJV) make the differentiation quite clear.
When the KJV uses "elect" instead of "chosen", when this term is used by most Bible translators only in reference to Christ's "joint-heirs"......those chosen by God to rule with his son in heaven....we have an immediate clash of beliefs.
All the verses you quoted from the Hebrew scriptures have the same word "elect" which applied to Israel in a very different way to what it does to Christ's "elect" in the Greek.
Israel were "chosen" to produce God's Messiah under the "old covenant".....this is a very different "election" to those taken into the "new covenant". God chose various individuals for different roles in the outworking of his purpose. "Chosen" does not mean "elected" in the sense that Christ's co-rulers are 'elected' for life in heaven.....its a totally different thing.
Only those from the night when Jesus inaugurated the "new covenant" with his 11 faithful apostles, were the first to receive that 'election' or "heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) to rule with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom as "kings and priests". (Rev 20:6)
The Jews as a nation were never faithful to their God, and constantly broke their covenant with him....but he did not break his covenant with them, until he had fulfilled it. After they had his son executed, he "abandoned" that nation (Matt 23:37-39) and chose a new "nation" to serve his interests on earth.....this was "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians who had accepted Jesus as Messiah and were willing to press on in a hostile environment to expand Jesus' message to all the nations. (Acts 15:14)
Part of the Abrahamic covenant was the eventual blessing of ALL nations who were saved by faith in that coming "seed of Abraham". (Gen 22:18)
So unless you see that the translation you are using is very misleading, you will not arrive at the truth.
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