The answer of hell and its origins

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Behold

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Because God is drawing them to him through the crucible (Lake of Fire) and they don't want to go and so they go kicking and screaming, so to speak. God does it for their own good so that they can be cleansed, purified,

"cuit of Mary" "Purgatory", does not exist.

Paul said, "absent from the body"...(DEAD) is to be present with the Lord"

There is nothing else, for the born again.
And if you are not born again............ Jesus said, "you must be born again"...........you will die, and you will go to hell like a bullet wondering why all this junk you have been taught, existed to deceive you.
And then you'll realize the reason your CULT exists., Patrick1966 and all you other "no-heller's" cultist's.

But it'll be too late then.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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hmm
do we? why?

oh, sorry, i already meant to say that imo you have the conviction of a flat earther, and i was already pretty sure that you could not entertain a single thing i have to say. Which reading that it sounds mean, sorry, but i mean to say that i suspect this is for someone else. Iow i am not trying to change your mind, as i dont think that will be possible until the lack of any "flex" in your dogma catches up to you, as it inevitably seems to do with most JWs

yes, your sticking point there seems to be the pronunciation of the Hebrew vowel forms YHWH, which i am convinced were used precisely bc they cannot be pronounced, making a great allegory for the concept "God," imo. Now i might be wrong, but i doubt that there is any secret, lost pronunciation of it, and really it strikes me as a red herring. Had you chosen any other group besides the Masoretes to emulate, those who were imo so deceived as to believe that the Bible needed correction, and that the Divine Name needed to be nailed down precisely, i might be more receptive, but as it stands i have unfortunately been on the witnessing end of too much JW aftermath, ministering to them, to maybe have an unbiased pov?

the forgiveness was just lacking, seemed to me, which i notice seems to go along with ppl who insist upon facts and proof. Life is not black and white, as idealistic as i (still) am, and while i dont want to infer that i am any better than them now, i was a Bible lawyer myself for...well, way too long, and for me that is in the past now i guess
I understand what your opinion is I just disagree with you. God's name that was in the Hebrew scriptures could be pronounced since it was put in the ancient Hebrew language. I'm not going to agree with anyone saying that the ancient Hebrews didn't know how to read or pronounce their own language. So when the ancient Hebrews came across the name of God [יהוה] (YHWH) they knew how to pronounce it since it was written in the ancient Hebrew language.
 

bbyrd009

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God's name that was in the Hebrew scriptures could be pronounced since it was put in the ancient Hebrew language
he said, with unassailable certainty. You are getting that YHWH is just like our AEOU right?
"In the Hebrew, the Yod, Hay, Waw, and Hay of the four-lettered Tetragrammaton are pronounced ee-ah-oo-eh..."
I'm not going to agree with anyone saying that the ancient Hebrews didn't know how to read or pronounce their own language
ya, you made that fairly clear the first five times, Barn
so im guessing an empty room for a holy of holies, youd be fixing that too huh
fwiw about a three minute convo with a Rabbi might provide some clarity
dont be offended if he laughs tho k

Judges 13:18​

But the angel of YHWH said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is incomprehensible?"
 
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RLT63

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he said, with unassailable certainty. You are getting that YHWH is just like our AEOU right

so im guessing an empty room for a holy of holies, youd be fixing that too huh
You have brought up some good points but you are comparing vowels to consonants as though they are the same thing
 

bbyrd009

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You have brought up some good points but you are comparing vowels to consonants as though they are the same thing
1. ya, and we get an added layer of confusion since they are transliterated, rather than translated, see bottom

2. hence the link, since Hebrews apparently invented vowels, contrary to what most of us Prots are taught
ill repost it...
"These letters became markers for both the Hebrew identity and the Hebrew religion, including the various names for God. One of these names is the famous Tetragrammaton יהוה (YHWH) which actually exists only of vowels, and is utterly exceptional in many ways, including the fact that it cannot be pronounced."
ah and another has come up this time,
and an article from Ha'aretz...not finding that one now hmm
"In the Hebrew, the Yod, Hay, Waw, and Hay of the four-lettered Tetragrammaton are pronounced ee-ah-oo-eh. These letters represent vowel-consonants, the only Hebrew letters besides the aleph that can perform as either vowel or consonant. (See “How the Hebrew Language Grew,” by Edward Horowitz.)"

and id like to reiterate one other thing; i do not know, and near as i can tell no one does, which imo any reputable reference/scholar on the subject should be making plain, as opposed to double-referencing to pad the resume a little lol
 
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bbyrd009

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RLT63

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1. ya, and we get an added layer of confusion since they are transliterated, rather than translated, see bottom

2. hence the link, since Hebrews apparently invented vowels, contrary to what most of us Prots are taught
ill repost it...
"These letters became markers for both the Hebrew identity and the Hebrew religion, including the various names for God. One of these names is the famous Tetragrammaton יהוה (YHWH) which actually exists only of vowels, and is utterly exceptional in many ways, including the fact that it cannot be pronounced."
ah and another has come up this time,
and an article from Ha'aretz...not finding that one now hmm
"In the Hebrew, the Yod, Hay, Waw, and Hay of the four-lettered Tetragrammaton are pronounced ee-ah-oo-eh. These letters represent vowel-consonants, the only Hebrew letters besides the aleph that can perform as either vowel or consonant. (See “How the Hebrew Language Grew,” by Edward Horowitz.)"

and id like to reiterate one other thing; i do not know, and near as i can tell no one does, which imo any reputable reference/scholar on the subject should be making plain, as opposed to double-referencing to pad the resume a little lol
Informative
 

Aunty Jane

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Informative
Yes and no.....
After investigating this website and it’s many statements about YHWH and it’s pronunciation, we find this....

After all this it should be clear that the name YHWH can't be readily interpreted.

If we're dealing with an expression of the verb הוה (hawa II), and we maintain that this verb means to fall, then YHWH would mean Falling, or He Will Fall or He Will Cause To Fall. This line of reasoning may seem to lack any trace of sound theology, but the divine name Shaddai reflects a similar negative, and may mean My Destroyer. The prophet Isaiah writes, "Wail, for the day of YHWH is near. It will come as destruction (shad) from Shaddai" (Isaiah 13:6).


But perhaps we have the verb הוה (hawa II) all figured wrong, and הוה (hawa II) is the same as הוה (hawa I), meaning to be or to happen. Then YHWH would comfortably mean Being or He Is or He Will Cause To Be.

Here at Abarim Publications we are most charmed by this particular explanation. Time and again the Bible urges its readers to focus only on that which is real — whether physical or abstract — on "That Which Is", and steer clear from superstitions and nonsense. To the modern world, Yahwism may seem like just another religion but to the ancients it wasn't. The Jews were known as the people without a god (meaning without an effigy) and it appears that Christians in the Roman empire may have been accused of atheism (again meaning without a visible deity; see Cassius Dio 67.14).

Even though the name YHWH is etymologically difficult to explain, to a Hebrew audience it may have looked very much like He Who Causes "That Which Is" To Be.” (underline mine)
Abarim Publications


"Charmed" as they may be, as the Tanakh has said all along.....God’s name in Exodus 3:14-15 meansI will be what I will be.....it is not a statement of his existence, but of his intentions.....about how he will act on behalf of his people.
 
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The Learner

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English Translation is poor because Hebrew does not contain the vows. Also, Yahew is the better english translation even addmitted by Kingdom Interlinear.

"
Says A Greek-English ὦ Lezicon, by Liddell and Scott, 1948 edition, on
page 1013, under Κύριος: “Δ. ὃ Kvotos,=Hebrew Yahweh, Lxx Ge: II. 5, 'al. "»
An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon,. 1888,.based on Liddell and ‘Scott
ree page 58, Race ae 6 Κύριος, the’ LORD, Brae ΨΕΡΟΥΔΗ, "
 
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The Learner

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Word games? Good idea. See if you can beat this one. Good luck.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
"25:46 Eternal punishment [kolasin ai nion]. The word [kolasin] comes from [kolaz ], to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between [m ria] (vengeance) and [kolasis]. But the same adjective [ai nios] is used with [kolasin] and [z n]. If by etymology we limit the scope of [kolasin], we may likewise have only age-long [z n]. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one’s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word [ai nios] (from [ai n], age, [aevum, aei] means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” [ai nes t n ai n n]. "
 

The Learner

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Questions from the OP. Great questions, thanks.

No. Not in the least. Ten seconds would be enough to get the message.

If gave someone ten seconds and then asked them if they would prefer to repent or return there forever...
what do we suppose the vast majority would say in response? Save me, or burn me?

Any rational being would have to conclude that this is the most sadistic thing imaginable.
Unless this supposed hell (as described) does exist, it is part of God's creation.
And therefore is carefully and thoughtfully designed, like everything else.

It sickens me to think that God is being blamed for such a thing.
But no one talks about it. Preferring rather to blame the victims who "sent themselves there."

An eternal headache? Pain in the rear? Eternal annoyance? He's omnipresent, right?
There would be no escape for Him either. Why would he do that to himself? He's omniscient, right?

And what about those of us with loved ones there? (assuming)
What would this mean for us? Knowing that souls were being incinerated in the basement for eternity.
And what does this say about God? Do I dare say?

To be clear, I do believe there will be fire. (for everyone) Jesus said:
"Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49 NIV

However, this fire is purifying, refining, corrective, and restorative.

I like this description.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
To my knowledge there is no offer to repent after death.

Malachi 3

Easy-to-Read Version

3 The Lord All-Powerful says, “I am sending my messenger to prepare the way for me. Then suddenly, the Lord you are looking for will come to his temple.[a] Yes, the messenger you are waiting for, the one who will tell about my agreement, is really coming!
2 “No one can prepare for that time or stand against him when he comes. He will be like a burning fire. He will be like the strong soap people use to make things clean. 3 He will make the Levites clean. He will make them pure, like silver is made pure with fire! He will make them pure like gold and silver. Then they will bring gifts to the Lord, and they will do things the right way. 4 Then the Lord will accept the gifts from Judah and Jerusalem. It will be as it was in the past—as the time long ago. 5 Then I will bring you to justice. I will be an expert witness and testify about the evil things people do. I will speak out against those who do evil magic or commit adultery. I will speak out against those who make false promises and cheat their workers and don’t pay them the money they promised. I will testify against those who don’t help strangers, or widows and orphans. And I will testify against those who don’t respect me.” This is what the Lord All-Powerful said.

Stealing From God​

6 “I am the Lord, and I don’t change. You are Jacob’s children, and you have not been completely destroyed. 7 But you never obeyed my laws. Even your ancestors stopped following me. Come back to me, and I will come back to you.” This is what the Lord All-Powerful said.
“You say, ‘How can we come back?’
8 “People should not steal things from God, but you stole things from me.
“You say, ‘What did we steal from you?’
“You should have given me one-tenth of your things. You should have given me special gifts. 9 In this way your whole nation has stolen things from me, so bad things are happening to you.”
10 The Lord All-Powerful says, “Try this test. Bring one-tenth of your things to me. Put them in the treasury. Bring food to my house. Test me! If you do these things, I will surely bless you. Good things will come to you like rain falling from the sky. You will have more than enough of everything. 11 I will not let pests destroy your crops. All your grapevines will produce grapes.” This is what the Lord All-Powerful said.
12 “People from other nations will be good to you. You will have a wonderful country.” This is what the Lord All-Powerful said.

The Special Time of Judgment​

13 The Lord says, “You said cruel things to me.”
But you ask, “What did we say about you?”
14 You said, “It is useless to worship God. We did what the Lord All-Powerful told us, but we didn’t gain anything. We cried like people at a funeral to show we were sorry for our sins, but it didn’t help. 15 We think proud people are happy. Evil people succeed. They do evil things to test God’s patience, and God does not punish them.”
16 Then the Lord’s followers spoke with each other, and the Lord listened to them. There is a book in front of him. In that book are the names of his followers. They are the people who honor the Lord’s name.
17 The Lord said, “They belong to me. I will be kind to them. Parents are very kind to their children who obey them. In the same way I will be kind to my followers. 18 You people will come back to me, and you will learn the difference between good and evil. You will learn the difference between someone who follows God and someone who does not.

Footnotes​

  1. Malachi 3:1 temple Or “palace.”
 

Jack

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well Jack, you can believe that if you like, you can state it as an Absolute Truth, but you cannot really Quote that, and being as how it almost surely is not true, you might leave a little room for Yah having a better idea, imo.

you might contemplate how much you need for there to be a hel, so that you might ascend to heaven and become an immortal after death...
just a suggestion
I can quote Jesus. That's what matters, not your unBiblical opinion. Are you another Kingdom Hall messenger?

Matthew 5:22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
 
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Jack

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salvation from what, Jack? Can you Quote that one, single time?
so its funny you ask me if i believe salvation is literal or not, since mine is about herenow, and easily demonstrated
yes, i believe it is more literal than your concept of salvation, with all due respect
and i wish you the best of luck in your walk ok
Salvation from Hell fire! The "furnace of fire"!

Matthew 13
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
 
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Jack

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The parody was based completely on your post.
My fairy tale? - LOL


Wow. That's ridiculous.

Christian: "You're going to hell!"
Atheist: "I don't believe in hell."
Christian: "That's why you are going there."
Atheist: "Say what?"
Christian: "You and your loved ones!"
Atheist: "If there is a hell, this is it. Goodbye."
Are you saying Jesus lied?

Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
 
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The Learner

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JWs have the strangest interpretation of the 144,000 that the Bible tells us are Jewish descendants of the 12 tribes. I don’t see how you reach the conclusion from scripture that they are all the people who have the heavenly hope.

Revelation 14

King James Version

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Not only are they Jewish, they are virgins which rules out all of those JW's who think they are part of the 144,000.
 

The Learner

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Okay I don’t mean to be insulting or disrespectful I just disagree.
per·se·cu·tion com·plex

noun

  1. an irrational and obsessive feeling or fear that one is the object of collective hostility or ill-treatment on the part of others.
  2. The 25 Signs you’re in a High-Control Group or Cult by Anastasia Somerville-Wong
  3. https://www.jstor.org/stable/27505547
  4. "A fourth characteristic of a group that has become a cult or is behaving in a cult-like manner is that there will be a persecution complex. A group of outside forces will be identified who are “the enemy”. A little fortress will be built in which all those on the inside are the “faithful ones” while all those on the outside will increasingly be demonized and feared. " 4 Danger Signs of Cult-Like Behavior, and 4 Antidotes
  5. 10 Signs You’re Probably In A Cult
  6. What Are the Warning Signs of a Cult?
  7. How Do I Know If I’m In A Cult? Seven Behaviors And Signs Of Cults
  8. What are some signs and practices of a cult?
  9. Persecution complex