The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Timtofly]

If the stars of heaven literally fall unto the earth, then the earth would be annihilated. Do you understand that? That can't be taken literally.

How ironic. According to your alleged hyper literal interpretation, the earth ceases to exist. However according to your symbolic interpretation, the earth still ceases to exist.

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Would you not find other places in the NT where this scenario is found to match up this event? How about 2 Peter 3:10?

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."

Is John in Revelation 6 using symbolism to describe the same event as Peter in 2 Peter 3? How about Matthew 24:29?

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

What is the difference if your point is that the earth ceases to exist?

So what exactly does happen at the 6th Seal, in light of all Scripture about the Second Coming, and in keeping with the symbolism of stars coming to earth found in other chapters of Revelation?

Jesus and the angels literally come to earth, that has been baptized by fire, but still exists, as there are people hiding among the rubble, and in the mountains of their perspective governments, after all the earth has been re-arranged and no place on earth is left unaffected.

Now that Jesus and all the stars are on the earth, the final harvest will be gathered during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. That harvest is found in Matthew 13 and in Matthew 25.

Even Jesus symbolized the stars as being the angels come to earth. Revelation shows us the stars are the angels.

The ten virgins represents Israel and not your "spiritual Israel". Half of the church cannot be just condemned as you yourself deny that, so you are wrong in stating these virgins represent spiritual Israel as much as those who say this is the rapture of the Church. The part of Israel, that is spiritual are those of Israel grafted back into the olive tree. The term cannot apply to Gentiles. That would be spiritual Gentiles. Gentiles of God born of the second birth.


Many of Israel will have accepted Salvation and leave with the church. Many of Israel will be left behind and then be separated as sheep and goats. God is not going to cast off all of Israel left behind. Many of Israel will return on those white horses in Revelation 19. The church is not on those white horses in Revelation 19.

Besides the fact there are no stars falling, nor angels coming to the earth in Revelation 19. That happened in Revelation 6.

 

[Timtofly]

And after the great earthquake levels everything, and the resulting tsunami destroys the islands of the sea, and mountains are cast down like broken pretzels, (Revelation 16:20) and hail weighing up to 60-70 lbs destroys everything left, you really believe there will be anyone left alive to "enjoy" the so called millennial kingdom? Or there is any habitable land left to build on after nuclear fallout and devastating of world war 3?

Yes, Isaiah 65 says all things are made new for that Day of the Lord, Millennium Kingdom. Daniel 9:24 states the transgression will be finished.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The Millennium Kingdom is the complete restoration and fulfillment of Daniel 9:24. Isaiah 65 describes how they will build and live in the same spot for that thousand years.

 

[Truther]

Now you are MOCKING God Himself and His Word, because He uses many... parables and metaphors in His Word. If you had even read The New Testament Scripture by Jesus Himself, you would easily know this FACT.

But the more falseness you keep throwing out, and your show of lack of reading New Testament Scripture, even simple Gospel Scripture, I now have strong doubt that you are even a Christian. The unbelieving Jews don't study The New Testament Scriptures, so they are ignorant of their meaning, as you are showing.

It is not sacrilegious, etc. to call a metaphor a lie. A metaphor can mean almost anything. It is not representative at all what you’re talking about. It’s like the Riddler telling riddles on Gotham.

 

[Hobie]

No need to try and school me on that, I don't need any extraneous Hebrew lessons to reveal what those Daniel 9:24-27 verses proclaim. And if you think just by going into the Hebrew there that will show you everything meant in those verses, then you deceive yourself, because God uses certain metaphors in that which serve as anchor points. And I notice often that many brethren don't pay attention, or even grasp when God uses a symbol in His Word to point to other Scripture.

The previous Dan.9:25 verse established the start time of the 70 weeks, with the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah's coming, with 7 and 62 weeks. But notice the next verse 26 gives MORE DETAIL about when Jesus was "cut off", the end point of His Ministry thus ending...

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

That in red above -- Jesus was cut off at the END of the 69th week, by His crucifixion. That still left the final 70th "one week" of Daniel 9:27 unfulfilled, even to this day.

That in green -- the Roman general Titus and his army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

That in purple -- that "flood" is NOT about a real flood. It is a symbol God used in His Word in several places linked with the final Antichrist. Even in Rev.12:13-17 it was used symbolically with "water as a flood" which the serpent casts out of his MOUTH after the symbolic "woman" that keep God's commandments and have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST. Those "desolations" are not simply about the destructions of 70 A.D., but instead about the desolations that the final Antichrist will cause in Jerusalem for the very END of this world.

Have you been taught to just skip all these uses of that symbolic "flood"?

Isa 8:7-8
7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
KJV

Jer 46:6-10
6 Let not the swift flee away, nor the mighty man escape; they shall stumble, and fall toward the north by the river Euphrates.
7 Who is this that cometh up as a flood, whose waters are moved as the rivers?
8 Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof.
9 Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.
10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that He may avenge Him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
KJV

Amos 8:8-9
8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
KJV

Amos 9:5
5 And the Lord GOD of hosts is He That toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a flood; and shall be drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
KJV

Nah 1:8-10
8 But with an overrunning flood He will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue His enemies.
9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.
KJV

Have you not noticed many of those symbols using a "flood" is for the very END of this world, and not just about Old Testament history?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

That "he" above per grammar must be picked by that previous one spoken of in the verse prior. That was the "prince", the Roman general Titus who represented a TYPE for the final Antichrist. This means the REST... OF THE DANIEL 9 weeks prophecy MUST BE ABOUT THE ANTICHRIST, and NOT Lord Jesus Christ.

That idea of the confirming of the covenant is explained... in the Daniel 11 chapter about the "vile person". The "vile person" makes a "league" with a small group in Jerusalem, and he comes to power PEACEFULLY, something Antiochus IV did not do. That "vile person" is then shown being against the "holy covenant". So that means the old covenant with sacrifices exists in that time. Then that "vile person" ends... the daily sacrifice and instead places the "abomination that maketh desolate" in a rebuilt Jewish temple.

Antiochus IV did that in 165 B.C., but there's a PROBLEM with claiming that already fulfilled that Daniel 11 Scripture...

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
KJV

Jesus warned about the placing of that "abomination of desolation" from Daniel 11:31 about 200 years AFTER Antiochus IV had been dead!

And Jesus was giving the 7 SIGNS of the END of this world there in Matthew 24 while upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples. Those SIGNS there parallel the SEALS of Revelation 6 given to His Church about the END of this world.

So please, don't try those 'I know Hebrew, so I have a more accurate interpretation' jokes at me. I don't buy into all that. If God had not wanted Gentiles to understand His Word, then He would never have allowed His Word to leave the language of Biblical Hebrew. But what actually happened? When the Jews went into captivity to Babylon, they lost use of old Hebrew and instead took up Aramaic! Even the old type of Hebrew characters changed, and the Jews created a philosophical work they use for their religion of Judaism called the Babylonian Talmud, which are just sage writings! Many corruptions happened to the Jews of the "house of Judah" during their captivity to Babylon.

The thing is that we must share Gods truth to help others, so they may know and see and hear with eyes that see and ears that hear. You must do it with love and care for your fellowman, and allow the Holy Spirit to do its work...

 

[TribulationSigns]

No need to try and school me on that.

You do need some schooling! You were trying to divide Daniel 9:26 into piece - one versre to Messiah the Prince, and another verse to a different prince to fit your flawed doctrine. For example, you wrote:

The previous Dan.9:25 verse established the start time of the 70 weeks, with the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah's coming, with 7 and 62 weeks. But notice the next verse 26 gives MORE DETAIL about when Jesus was "cut off", the end point of His Ministry thus ending...

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

That in red above -- Jesus was cut off at the END of the 69th week, by His crucifixion. That still left the final 70th "one week" of Daniel 9:27 unfulfilled, even to this day.

That in green -- the Roman general Titus and his army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

That in purple -- that "flood" is NOT about a real flood. It is a symbol God used in His Word in several places linked with the final Antichrist. Even in Rev.12:13-17 it was used symbolically with "water as a flood" which the serpent casts out of his MOUTH after the symbolic "woman" that keep God's commandments and have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST. Those "desolations" are not simply about the destructions of 70 A.D., but instead about the desolations that the final Antichrist will cause in Jerusalem for the very END of this world.

First, you got the prince part wrong. See...a biblical mind is like a parachute--it works much better when it's open. But man is a funny creature in that whatever he doesn't like or understand, he generally finds unconvincing.

Of course, the "traditional" approach to Daniel chapter 9 is to "read into" this prophecy that it speaks of the people of the prince being the armies sent by the Roman Titus, or the ludicrous idea that Titus is called Messiah the Prince because he was sent by Christ as His instrument of judgment. Others claim the Prince is of the endtime evil prince, and therefore this is the antichrist, the false prophet. Some even saying that the people of the prince refer to the end when there will be a revived Roman Empire, speculated in some quarters to be the Catholic Church. Beside from being all speculation, all these theories have one thing in common. The "conclusions" are not defined by the actual Scripture written there, but by people's own assumptions of what they think the Scripture written there "mean."

Biblical interpretation first and foremost recognizes that the whole context of Daniel chapter 9 is the coming of "Messiah, the Prince." He is THIS Prince that is prophecied to come, and thus His people prophesied to destroy both City and Sanctuary would harmoniously be Israel, the Jews. PERIOD! There's no mention of, or even "implying" that there is another evil Prince being talked about in that context. Not at all! All the vaunted theologian's personal opinions or private interpretations notwithstanding, only one Prince is being discussed there WITHIN THE CONTEXAT, and that is the Prince that is cut off, for His people. Any other Prince has to be "read into" the passage rather than "read from" the passage. That's the difference between inductive Bible study, as contrasted with deductive Bible studies. Inductive reads "out of" the passage what is clearly written in Scripture, and deductive reads "in to" the passage what they "believe" the Scripture means.

One is a sound hermeneutic and the other is an unsound system dependent upon our own fallible reasoning. Inductive study is how "faithful" Christians have gleaned truth from the Scriptures since Scripture study began. For it is by God's use of repeated words, phrases and examples in Scripture that He illustrates to His servants its true (or faithful) interpretation that they may (by comparing Scripture with Scripture) come to sure and sound conclusions of what He is saying based upon, and comparing those received Biblical words, texts and examples. By the Spirit, using inductive study from the word, we can "and should" come to consistently defensible, consistent and trustworthy "God Breathed" interpretations. Though many unbelievers (and more than a few professing believers) claim that the truth of Scripture is generally unattainable and that the Bible can be endlessly convoluted, seem contradictory and perplexing. However, it is not so much that the word itself is confusing, but more often man who doesn't rightly divide it (2nd Timothy 2:15), or righteously judge the very words, in their context. They work with an unsound system. In short, Daniel chapter 9 has not one jot or tittle about the Roman Catholic church, 70 A.D., the Roman Titus or AntiChrist being this Prince that shall come! All that speculation is from the imaginations of men.

Shall we please look at the Scripture itself we get that it is the Prince, Messiah.

Daniel 9:25

• "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
• And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Not really confusing when we receive the "unadulterated, no additions" testimony that is written right there of who Prince is being spoken about, versus what some theologians claim is the Prince being spoken about. So then, is what I've said really a different approach to Daniel chapter 9, or is it the unadulterated approach to Daniel chapter 9? Indeed, bears looking into further

By the way, you need to understand that Daniel 9:24-27 is about God and His People, Covenant Israel. He did NOT allow you to insert a different prince, an evil one verse 26, and abused it to distract from Christ's confirmation with His people. That is why the doctrines of Preterism and Premillennialism are all wrong.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The thing is that we must share Gods truth to help others, so they may know and see and hear with eyes that see and ears that hear. You must do it with love and care for your fellowman, and allow the Holy Spirit to do its work...

You must have the truth,, or sharing it even in kindness will not lead to someone finding the truth

 

[Hobie]

Yes, Isaiah 65 says all things are made new for that Day of the Lord, Millennium Kingdom. Daniel 9:24 states the transgression will be finished.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The Millennium Kingdom is the complete restoration and fulfillment of Daniel 9:24. Isaiah 65 describes how they will build and live in the same spot for that thousand years.

Need to read your Bible and see the context...

Isaiah 65:17 King James Version
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1-3 King James Version
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Peter tells us what happens before the new earth and heavens are made, no one will be on earth or they will be burnt up with it...
2 Peter 3:10-12 King James Version
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Berean]

Need to read your Bible and see the context...

Isaiah 65:17 King James Version
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1-3 King James Version
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Peter tells us what happens before the new earth and heavens are made, no one will be on earth or they will be burnt up with it...
2 Peter 3:10-12 King James Version
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Do you take these verses literally?

 

[ewq1938]

Peter tells us what happens before the new earth and heavens are made, no one will be on earth or they will be burnt up with it...

It's not literal fire...heaven can't be burned up yet the heavens are burned and a new one replaces the old. By the time of the NHNE all the unsaved are in the LOF, and the people on the Earth are immortals so not harmed by fire anyways.

 

[Timtofly]

Need to read your Bible and see the context...

Isaiah 65:17 King James Version
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1-3 King James Version
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Peter tells us what happens before the new earth and heavens are made, no one will be on earth or they will be burnt up with it...
2 Peter 3:10-12 King James Version
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The Second Coming is the baptism of fire. Yet Jesus will be on the earth after that point making all things new, one step at a time.

Zechariah 14 also explains along with the 6th Seal, that the geography of the entire earth will be changed just like at the time of the Flood. There was a new heaven and earth after the Flood, but it was not the NHNE of Revelation 21. Neither is the Second Coming the same NHNE as Revelation 21. That is after current heaven and earth are presented to God, after the Day of the Lord, which is the Millennial reign of Jesus as King declared at the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet happens after the baptism of fire that burns up all the works on earth in 2 Peter 3.

Isaiah 65 is declaring the new heaven and earth that Jesus reigns over for a thousand years. Not a desolate and burnt offering earth.

You are not paying attention to context either. Revelation 21 is after this Day of the Lord, not prior to the Day of the Lord. Peter told you that the Day of the Lord is as a thousand years. John told you Jesus would reign on earth for a thousand years, while Satan is bound for a thousand years. Revelation 21 is after that time, and current creation does pass away, as that former creation returns to God to get ready for a creation upgrade.

None of Isaiah 65 is in context to Revelation 21. People are building in Isaiah 65. God does all the building in Revelation 21. People can die in Isaiah 65. Death is the last enemy, and no one can die in Revelation 21. Paul says the earth will be subdued until the very end. That only relates to this current creation per Genesis 1. Nothing about subduing in Revelation 21. John states the kings of the earth are already established:

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

I am not claiming to know how the NHNE will work. It seems to be created already built in the instant God creates this NHNE. Isaiah 65 can only be referring to the Day of the Lord prior to this next creation.

How can there be people just instantly created as if having lived for hundreds of years? I don't think what is done during the Day of the Lord is transferred, although it could be. But the people certainly are transferred from one creation to the next.

I think Isaiah 65 is telling us that when the Millennium actually starts those on earth will not remember sin, transgression, decay, natural death, and all this curse current creation is under as the bondage of Adam's punishment. There will not be churches nor salvation, as that is all former things. The church will not be on the earth, as that would be a reminder of the former things. Those granted eternal life in the final harvest both of Israel and all Gentile nations, after the church was removed, are the ones who will not remember current life and the state of sin.

The church in Paradise remembering is a moot point. As sons of God, they could probably ask about many details throughout the 6,000 year life on earth and life before Adam sinned as well. God is all knowing.

 

[Hobie]

Let's put your hyper-literalism to the test and see if that is the right approach to interpreting the highly symbolic book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If the stars of heaven literally fall unto the earth, then the earth would be annihilated. Do you understand that? That can't be taken literally. Also, if "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together" literally, then that would destroy all life on earth as well. That can't be taken literally. Also, can "every mountain and island" be literally moved out of their places without destroying the earth? How could only every mountain and island be literally moved out of their places without affecting the rest of the earth or without everything else on earth also being moved out of their places which would result in the destruction of the entire earth? This also can't be taken literally. Yet, you do so, anyway. You need to rethink your understanding of this passage as well as the rest of the book of Revelation because your understanding of the book of Revelation contradicts the rest of scripture and your interpretation of Revelation 6 also contradicts the idea that life on earth could continue if those things described there literally happened.

Oh, and are we supposed to believe that people will literally be telling the mountains and rocks to fall on them? No. That's ridiculous. It's symbolic text. If the mountains and rocks literally fell on them they obviously would all die, but it describes them as wanting the mountains and rocks to hide them "from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb". It's all symbolic.

Need to look in history and see what it shows...
"The great star shower took place on the night of November 13, 1833. It was so bright that a newspaper could be read on the street. One writer says, "For nearly four hours the sky was literally ablaze."* Men thought the end of the world had come. Look into this. It is most fascinating, and a sign of Christ's coming.

*Peter A. Millman, "The Falling of the Stars," The Telescope, 7 (May-June, 1940) 57....https://www.bibleuniverse.com/articles/second-coming-prophecies-fulfilled/id/1934